Leaving the Sabbat

[Black Fox]

I think general feelings of loyalty to the Sabbat are an emergent property of doing the Vaulderie with many members of the Sabbat, especially when so many vaulderies are done in a ritualized way of showcasing everyone's loyalty to the sect. It happens because it is done so often that the mind eventually associates loyalty to the sect to the vinculum one feels to so many of its members. It's like when Pavlov's dog salivates after he hears a bell.

Nevertheless, I don't think there is any actual vinculum towards the Sabbat itself. It's more like an esprit de corps artificially created as a result of the vinculum with individuals. Nomadic packs that are insular and rarely show up to the great Sabbat meetings and thus have little vinculum with other members of the Sabbat, should have less general solidarity with the Sabbat as a whole than a pack that routinely travels to Sabbat strongholds and performs the vinculum with lots of other Sabbat. That is why the Sabbat leadership encourages the vaulderie to be done as often as possible, and if you meet another Sabbat who has never done the vaulderie with you yet, it is almost mandated that you perform the vaulderie with them. And its why the vaulderie is performed at functions that are designed to create a common Sabbat identity. (The manner and frequency of how the vaulderie is performed by the Sabbat nowadays is probably very, very different than how the original Anarchs performed it and how it was done early on in the sect's period. It was probably a learning curve that if you really want loyalty to the sect as a whole, you need to perform the vaulderie often and with many different members.)

Unless you keep performing the vaulderie again and again with other members of the Sabbat, I don't think you get that feeling. You just have the specific feelings due to the vinculum.

It's also important to note that loyalty to the Sabbat as a whole also does not translate into non-violence, or that everyone has the same vision of the Sabbat. It is just a bloody shirt to rally people behind against your common enemy. The Sabbat's culture says it is OK to kill and diablerize other vampires, even Sabbat as long as it is done "lawfully" and "for the best wishes of the sect". And Sabbat can have very different ideas and visions of what the Sabbat should be like. Lasombra battle Tzimisce for control of the sect, as do the Loyalists versus the Ultraconservatives, Panders against anyone not in favor of them, and many other divisions.

So I would say what the general feelings or loyalties of individuals towards the Sabbat is more about an "us versus them" mentality, when anyone who is not of the Sabbat are seen as "not us, and therefore dangerous." But within the Sabbat, it's like an "I against my brother; my brother and I against our cousins; my brother, my cousins, and I against the world." The Sabbat is like your extended family, to be sided with against everyone who is not Sabbat.

The less vaulderie you perform with others, and the more time between performing the vaulderie with others, I think there would become a lesser feeling to the sect as a whole.

So I feel I am inbetween Bluecho and adambeyoncelowe and see a lot of valid points in both their posts that I want to incorporate in portraying the vaulderie in my own chronicles.

[adambeyoncelowe]

I think general feelings of loyalty to the Sabbat are an emergent property of doing the Vaulderie with many members of the Sabbat, especially when so many vaulderies are done in a ritualized way of showcasing everyone's loyalty to the sect. It happens because it is done so often that the mind eventually associates loyalty to the sect to the vinculum one feels to so many of its members. It's like when Pavlov's dog salivates after he hears a bell.

Nevertheless, I don't think there is any actual vinculum towards the Sabbat itself. It's more like an esprit de corps artificially created as a result of the vinculum with individuals. Nomadic packs that are insular and rarely show up to the great Sabbat meetings and thus have little vinculum with other members of the Sabbat, should have less general solidarity with the Sabbat as a whole than a pack that routinely travels to Sabbat strongholds and performs the vinculum with lots of other Sabbat. That is why the Sabbat leadership encourages the vaulderie to be done as often as possible, and if you meet another Sabbat who has never done the vaulderie with you yet, it is almost mandated that you perform the vaulderie with them. And its why the vaulderie is performed at functions that are designed to create a common Sabbat identity. (The manner and frequency of how the vaulderie is performed by the Sabbat nowadays is probably very, very different than how the original Anarchs performed it and how it was done early on in the sect's period. It was probably a learning curve that if you really want loyalty to the sect as a whole, you need to perform the vaulderie often and with many different members.)

Unless you keep performing the vaulderie again and again with other members of the Sabbat, I don't think you get that feeling. You just have the specific feelings due to the vinculum.

It's also important to note that loyalty to the Sabbat as a whole also does not translate into non-violence, or that everyone has the same vision of the Sabbat. It is just a bloody shirt to rally people behind against your common enemy. The Sabbat's culture says it is OK to kill and diablerize other vampires, even Sabbat as long as it is done "lawfully" and "for the best wishes of the sect". And Sabbat can have very different ideas and visions of what the Sabbat should be like. Lasombra battle Tzimisce for control of the sect, as do the Loyalists versus the Ultraconservatives, Panders against anyone not in favor of them, and many other divisions.

So I would say what the general feelings or loyalties of individuals towards the Sabbat is more about an "us versus them" mentality, when anyone who is not of the Sabbat are seen as "not us, and therefore dangerous." But within the Sabbat, it's like an "I against my brother; my brother and I against our cousins; my brother, my cousins, and I against the world." The Sabbat is like your extended family, to be sided with against everyone who is not Sabbat.

The less vaulderie you perform with others, and the more time between performing the vaulderie with others, I think there would become a lesser feeling to the sect as a whole.

So I feel I am inbetween Bluecho and adambeyoncelowe and see a lot of valid points in both their posts that I want to incorporate in portraying the vaulderie in my own chronicles.

TBH, I don't read your view as different to mine. I just see it as saying the same thing, only slightly differently.

I don't think there is a vinculum to the sect itself. Except for the one quote I shared upthread from PGttS, where it suggests that vinculi also indicate the strength of loyalty to the sect itself, there is no other evidence that this is the case. That was never my argument.

My point was, as you put it so succinctly, that loyalty to the sect is an emergent property of having ties to many of the sect's members. The sect *is* its members, rather than a distinct entity.

So when you care about a broad range of sect members, that makes you loyal to the sect as a result. As you say, there is always the risk that a nomadic or remote pack which doesn't engage in the Vaulderie with outsiders would put their own pack ahead of the rest of the sect.

The books are also contradictory on whether vinculi fade with time. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

[Microcuchon]

The books are also contradictory on whether vinculi fade with time. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

That was exactly why I started this thread. My understanding is now that they must fade with time, regardless of what some books may say, for the whole thing to make sense

[Baaldam]

That was exactly why I started this thread. My understanding is now that they must fade with time, regardless of what some books may say, for the whole thing to make sense

Also as previously pointed out by others, diablerizing someone of far more potent blood can obliterate a weak vinculum, if Monty Coven's tale serves as any indicator.

Though i somehow doubt that would count as a very positive argument toward accepting "ex-Sabbat" into a Cam city's court....

[adambeyoncelowe]

That was exactly why I started this thread. My understanding is now that they must fade with time, regardless of what some books may say, for the whole thing to make sense

It's also mentioned in the GttS under the bit about Manchurians. Essentially, those in deep cover risk losing their bonds.

My guess is that they mean vinculi won't fade so long as you maintain the Vaulderie regularly (as nearly every Sabbat member is expected to do). If you don't, then they start to fade away.

Vinculi only seem to be permanent because most Cainites don't get a chance to go without the Vaulderie for any length of time.

[Microcuchon]

It's also mentioned in the GttS under the bit about Manchurians. Essentially, those in deep cover risk losing their bonds.

My guess is that they mean vinculi won't fade so long as you maintain the Vaulderie regularly (as nearly every Sabbat member is expected to do). If you don't, then they start to fade away.

Vinculi only seem to be permanent because most Cainites don't get a chance to go without the Vaulderie for any length of time.

Actually, in my games I have ruled that deep cover agents still participate in the Vaulderie, by receiving shipments of blood from their packs back home, and others during big festivals. Detecting these shipments can be s way of unmasking one of these agents

[adambeyoncelowe]

Actually, in my games I have ruled that deep cover agents still participate in the Vaulderie, by receiving shipments of blood from their packs back home, and others during big festivals. Detecting these shipments can be s way of unmasking one of these agents

That's also mentioned in the same section. Some Manchurians get shipments of blood, but if they decide not to complete the Vaulderie, they may find their vinculi decreasing over times. The alternative is to have them sneak off and do the Vaulderie with fellow Sabbat, but that runs the risk of getting caught.

Though, I could see cells of infiltrators meeting in private and doing the Vaulderie with each other, under the guise of some other activity. If the Keeper of Elysium is actually Sabbat, that could be quite interesting.

[Microcuchon]

That's also mentioned in the same section. Some Manchurians get shipments of blood, but if they decide not to complete the Vaulderie, they may find their vinculi decreasing over times. The alternative is to have them sneak off and do the Vaulderie with fellow Sabbat, but that runs the risk of getting caught.

Though, I could see cells of infiltrators meeting in private and doing the Vaulderie with each other, under the guise of some other activity. If the Keeper of Elysium is actually Sabbat, that could be quite interesting.

I haven't even considered the possibility of the Manchurian choosing not to do the Vaulderie but it's definitely a possibility. Meeting in the Elysium to perform Vaulderie is definitely a bold move. Shame that in my game the Guardian of the Elysium is actually a Justicar's agent