OPP V5 and what I like about it

[ArcaneArts]

I'm gonna level a personal conundrum about comparing V5 books to Requiem. On the one hand, it feels a bit like comparing two different kinds of apple to each other rather than comparing two of the same type of apples together-Requiem has a different set of themes, gameplay, goals, etc. to Masquerade.

On the hand you knew was coming, Paradox invites it with trying to hybridize their apples.

Anyways, as it goes with evaluating the OPP books, I do feel like the goal of the thread is to try and gauge them regardless of the fact they have to start from where Paradox set the starting line, and regardless of how you feel about that starting line.

In my own iteration on that, I don't feel like OPP somehow did lesser work than they usually did, they're just having to lift from the low bar of V5. Even if it doesn't hit as high as some of their other work, I'd argue the stretch of quality is equal to most other projects they've picked up and tried to lift as high as possible.

[CTPhipps]

Honestly, that was perhaps the biggest mistake of my conception for the thread because I explicitly didn't WANT to make a referendum on V5's rules and setting. Rather to discuss the material on its own merits. Certainly, I think OPP does the best V5 and I wouldn't be a fan of V5 without OPP's contributions but I don't really think that matters in the slightest.

Every product stands on its own for me.

Let the Streets Run Red is just a bunch of awesome adventures and cities regardless of whether they're V5 or not.

[TwoDSix]

Honestly, that was perhaps the biggest mistake of my conception for the thread because I explicitly didn't WANT to make a referendum on V5's rules and setting. Rather to discuss the material on its own merits. Certainly, I think OPP does the best V5 and I wouldn't be a fan of V5 without OPP's contributions but I don't really think that matters in the slightest.

Unfortunately nothing exists in a vacuum, and the closest points of comparison for OPP's V5 books are their previous vampire related books. Both their V20 and VtR books are working from significantly better starting point, especially their Requiem work as Blood and Smoke was such a massive improvement over 1e (even if the majority of work was already in supplements).

Yes it massively sucks that OPP wasn't allowed to redefine the Sabbat, seeing as they created an excellent new take on their spiritual successor. Yes they may be creating better material than nWW, but seeing everything going on with W5 that doesn't inherently raise them out of 'bad'.

I can honestly believe that CbN is good, OPP have shown that they are really good at settings. My favourite bit of CofD corebooks is the chapters with a handful of short city overviews, and would love a full Dark Etas-style book featuring cities from the point of view of various gamelines. But it's also a book I have little actual desire for, at best I'd be picking out little bits and pieces to transfer to a European setting

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Honestly, that was perhaps the biggest mistake of my conception for the thread because I explicitly didn't WANT to make a referendum on V5's rules and setting. Rather to discuss the material on its own. Certainly, I think OPP does the best V5 and I wouldn't be a fan of V5 without OPP's contributions but I don't really think that matters in the slightest.

Every product stands on its own for me.

Let the Streets Run Red is just a bunch of awesome adventures and cities regardless of whether they're V5 or not.

Honestly I'm much the same way. I was lukewarm on the V5 Rulebook which didn't help with the Anarch and Cam books that followed it. Hell, I still consider the single greatest sin of the V5 Rulebook as well as the line as a whole that they didn't give us the 13 Clans in the book or at least follow-up the Rulebook with a Companion book that had the remaining Clans. That we had to wait YEARS to get what had been the default character options since 2E was a major mistake. Though I do have to admit that given how the Anarch and Cam books turned out, I wouldn't have been surprised that such an attempt would have been lukewarm at best.

That said, even with how mixed V5 is, I would definitely take things from at least the OPP V5 books, especially CotBG, for V20 games. Which is honestly why I would recommend CotBG even if you never play V5 as it is a great book with lots of things that you could harvest for older editions.

[Ragged Robin]

Honestly? Everything, especially Chicago by Night, I was never a fan of the by night books even for oWoD but I still have fond memories about the mood and the characters of the first Chicago by Night, the new one, aside from following V5 less than stellar metaplot changes, has very uninteresting and forgettable characters and an equally underwhelming fluff, really the only good thing about that book is the system for running a camarilla city, I would consider it an obligatory purchase if you like V5 for this reason alone, just like I would consider the camarilla and anarch books essentials for running V5 games, not because of their quality since they are among the worse in the line (the anarch book is at the bottom with the sabbath one as far as I'm concerned) but because they describe the situation for the sects in V5 and, like it or not, this is vampire the masquerade now and this is what you will have to deal with if you want to run the latest edition which I sure as hell don't want to.

I probably would have been a lot more fond of Chicago if the lasombra write up hadn't been terrible. Some of the potential developments of the corebook are calcified and enforced with lasombra. It becomes clear the edition wants to stunt the setting rather than develop it.

The other two lasombra fangirls i know reacted even more caustically than I did and if the goth chick's are backing off from your vampire game somethings up.

Though I do have to admit that given how the Anarch and Cam books turned out, I wouldn't have been surprised that such an attempt would have been lukewarm at best.

.

I've always hypothesised the anarch books is were v5 actually run into trouble. The new anarch centric setting could have worked if they'd knocked it out the ball park and produced a Sabbat revised tier book. Instead it was a coffee table book which gives new players nothing to work with and frustrates older players .

[MyWifeIsScary]

That makes me curious: HAVE you read these books?

I think I discussed it before with someone, but I've read at least a manuscript for CotBG. I didn't like it. Now, what I read might not've been in the final product, which was the cause of a misunderstanding: I got into an argument as I recalled Bahari being more S and almost dropping the M, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the final product if I've been told the truth.

Shouldn't you be referring to what you dislike SPECIFICALLY in the OPP material rather than speaking in generalities?

-I dislike catering to V5
-I think the world of Darkness should be politically challenging, not politically correct. I also think a lot of the social justice provided in later books more often than not rings hollow and reeks of corporatism.


That and 20th has mostly gotten worse over time, so I don't imagine 5th getting better when the trend is so clearly downards.
Vampire (2011) and Werewolf Core(2013) were great. But M20's core(2015) was a clusterfuck. DAV20 core (2015) was a mixed bag (I would say more bad than good, but there are a few things I really like)
Rites of the blood? Excellent. HHII (2013) ? Excellent. Lore of the clans (2015) Good. Lore of the Bloodlines? (2017) I think this is the worst V20 book.

I don't want to list every book, and somehow, I haven't read Beckett's Jyhad Diary yet, and there are a few exceptions that are good despite later publication dates (There's also a few good episodes of The Simpsons in latter seasons but the trend is clear). I've heard great things about C20 though I haven't read it yet, and some later DAV20 books fixed a few issues of the core. But for the most part things got worse.

Then again, now I'm more out of the loop. I don't care as much anymore. My first child is already three, the second is on the way, I'm gaining other interests and have other problems to worry about. There's hope for WoD's course correction, there really is, but it's not going to be through good V5 products. I genuinely wish I had the money to seriously bid for the IP, because it has so much potential, and it's not being used for anything good right now so I'm sure I could make a return on the investment.

[CTPhipps]

Then again, now I'm more out of the loop. I don't care as much anymore. My first child is already three, the second is on the way, I'm gaining other interests and have other problems to worry about. There's hope for WoD's course correction, there really is, but it's not going to be through good V5 products. I genuinely wish I had the money to seriously bid for the IP, because it has so much potential, and it's not being used for anything good right now so I'm sure I could make a return on the investment.

Congratulations. I wish you and your family many good days ahead.

I strongly disagree about the quality of OPP products, though.

[MrNatas]

Regardless of how this thread turned out or the original intentions of it, I think it's healthy and good to have conversation about material for things you like or don't like. Specifically, I think that having open discussion is better so that the free flow of ideas.

I may not like V5 and not shy about saying it but, I'll admit that the without V5 I'd probably not be working on the games that I want or do some of my own writing about possible 'continuums' of the WoD timeline. This thread just talking about Cult of the Blood Gods and Forbidden Religion has gotten me to circle back in my Dark Ages game and examine the See of Nod and the Cainite Heresy and make plans for them going forward.

My personal feeling is that people that only look at people being mad as the grumblings of grognards and complain about the complaints are worst for discourse than anything else.

Circling back to OPP V5, and this might drift into 'V6 discussion', that having OPP remake the Corebook and the Sect books would be great. At from the standpoint that their writing would improve the quality of those books and, maybe, make people want to come back and run games. Like I didn't even know that rules adapting Paths of Thaumaturgy as rituals until this thread. That a really good idea and something that seems like would be something for the corebook.

OPP really seems like they want to explore ideas about the World of Darkness and make books with that. Personally, I find that really great because it does inspire me to be creative and the more creative, I am the more I can put into my games and the more I put into my game the more fun I and my players have. OPP makes my games more fun even if they write for V5.

[CTPhipps]

Let's cut down on the commentary on other posters both positive and negative. Grognards may not be a pejorative but we should comment on the subject rather than the people making the commentary.

[Newb95]

I admit I'm heavily prone to being a grognard but I will tell you this, I gave V5 a very fair try, spent a whole year playing the game because, as much as I'm a requiem main, masquerade is where everything started and it will always have a special place in my hearth but despite all of this, I really can't find much positives about V5 and it's books, even the ones made by Onyx Path.

This is not just because of the cringy metaplot (the SI and the tremere chantry destruction being the lowest point) and the meme worthy characters (fucking Rudi man), it is not for the heavy nerf that invalidated basically everything that happened in the last 20 years, it is not even the absymal quality of the books themselves (bad art and layout is definitely not exclusive to V5) but it's just the fact that V5 doesn't feel like vampire at all, it just doesn't have the same mood and atmosphere.

Whenever I read the books because yes, I still reread them from time to time in a vain attempt to find anything worth salvaging, It just feels like I'm reading a different game, one that seems to be written by an edgy 16 years old in his emo phase, a superficial mockery of what the themes of masquerade are, only ran through a corporate filter to appeal to the lowest common denominator among customers, the game isn't a satire on power any more, it doesn't explore the vampiric condition and horrors that come with it in a mature way, it doesn't put you in a world where nothing is as it appears and where you can't trust anybody, no it doesn't do anything of that, instead it is a perpetually edgy charade of leeches who are basically ticking bombs and who can derubricate any of their fucked up actions to the beast because that would be objectively true most of the time with how the beast has been reworked, anyone in power is a bad guy while the anarchs are the good ones (despite being as horrible as the rest), this seeing everything in this black and white optic is not masquerade, it never was, sorry for the rant but I wanted to get this out of my chest for a while now.

[CajunKhan]

The original had a heavy element of "Family Guy" and "American Dad" style parody humor. A parody style that carried over into the "Bloodlines" game, which has a heavy element of that same sort of humor. It really feels like that's gone, because the game has been taken over by people who have zero sense of humor.

It also feels like it is now a game purely focused on having you only play the protagonist in the sorts of movies where the half-turned eventually kill the real vampires. You're Mina in "Dracula", you're Michael in "Lost Boys", etc. The game mechanics are designed in a way where you have subtle, but lethal, advantages over the real vampires. You have high humanity and low bane-rating, meaning that if you are a Brujah, you can kill your sire by tricking him into charging mindlessly into that booby-trap full of gasoline. If you are a Setite, you can smash that painted over window and blast your sire to ashes while you just take a few aggs. If you are a Ventrue, you can starve your sire of blood and willpower and then kill him in his weakened state. Etc, etc.

You begin with all the tools needed to beat that high bane rating, low humanity sire of yours, and it's all about keeping those tools long enough to do it. This is a vampire hunter game masquerading as a vampire game. Whereas older editions are "American Dad" with fangs.

[Vendrin]

OPP's V5 is carrying the line. Unfortunately 1 book every year if that is not enough to carry it very far.

[Newb95]

The original had a heavy element of "Family Guy" and "American Dad" style parody humor. A parody style that carried over into the "Bloodlines" game, which has a heavy element of that same sort of humor. It really feels like that's gone, because the game has been taken over by people who have zero sense of humor.

It also feels like it is now a game purely focused on having you only play the protagonist in the sorts of movies where the half-turned eventually kill the real vampires. You're Mina in "Dracula", you're Michael in "Lost Boys", etc. The game mechanics are designed in a way where you have subtle, but lethal, advantages over the real vampires. You have high humanity and low bane-rating, meaning that if you are a Brujah, you can kill your sire by tricking him into charging mindlessly into that booby-trap full of gasoline. If you are a Setite, you can smash that painted over window and blast your sire to ashes while you just take a few aggs. If you are a Ventrue, you can starve your sire of blood and willpower and then kill him in his weakened state. Etc, etc.

You begin with all the tools needed to beat that high bane rating, low humanity sire of yours, and it's all about keeping those tools long enough to do it. This is a vampire hunter game masquerading as a vampire game. Whereas older editions are "American Dad" with fangs.

Yeah, I wouldn't call masquerade family guy since it was largely in the background but while the actual games were usually pretty serious, there were this little moments of levity, like a ventrue throwing an issy fit because they didn't get their way, a toreador acting like a sterotyped twat from a soap opera(and not taken seriously like in V5), a malk going fishmalk, and other clans falling into their stereotypes, the world was dark as fuck but there was this sublte satire that could always make you giggle, now you are still giggling but only at how cringe V5 is, like seriously, the only good thing (in the cringy side of things) about the anarch book is watching Rudi and his group acting like a bunch of American college kids, they were also supposed to be Europeans and I assure that young people here don't act like that at all.

[Ragged Robin]

Rudi and his group acting like a bunch of American college kids, they were also supposed to be Europeans and I assure that young people here don't act like that at all.

I initially presumed Rudi was a satire of people like me, I was rather bemused to find out he was completly played straight.

V5 to its credit does try very hard to update the style of 90s vtm in a contemporary context. It ultimatly fails for a number of reasons but I respect the effort.

To say something nice of v5, theirs a lot of potential there .I can see if more effort and refinement from my fairly simple homebrew mods. With more time and more critical mindset I could see it going places. Hopefully if they do v6 we'll see this.

[CTPhipps]

As a note, this isn't a thread about V5.

It's a thread about OPP's V5 products.

But this does get into the interesting issue of "conversation killers" which is the fact that if you hate absolutely everything about a product then there's not actually anything to discuss. I'm reminded of my time on No Mutants Allowed that is a Fallout website.

There was a very interesting conversation about, essentially, how it was impossible to discuss what people disliked about Fallout 3 and Fallout 4. Why? Because the old school Fallout fans hated EVERYTHING about the games. They had nothing good to say about the games because from start to finish, it's all bad.

So...there wasn't actually anything to discuss.

If you can't say what you like about a product, you can't actually talk about what's wrong with it. Which is making me wonder if that's what is going to happen here. I'd love to discuss what was bad about OPP products and didn't work but to do that, I'd have to discuss what the books did right to contrast.

I'm wondering, is there enough people like to discuss in the OPP books to bother with this thread?