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  • #46
    The Hecata

    I think as a referendum on V:TM 5E, the Hecata are probably what the OPP peeps will probably be remembered for most. While CBN5E reintroduced the Lasombra and that was taken by Coteries of New York to be the basis of its sequel, really, the Hecata are the biggest change to the traditional World of Darkness.

    Part of this is due to the fact that the Giovanni were always very controversial to WOD because they started as one of the WORST clans but Justin Achilli made them into one of the BEST clans because he really went hard on the "this is a group of sickening degenerate MONSTERS. Not because they're vampires but because the family is just evil and wrong."

    Which was refreshing to a lot of people who felt the horror element of V:TM was underdeveloped in 2nd Edition.

    I think OPP was given more or less a free hand for the development of this clan and Cults of the Blood Gods shows what OPP's idea for 4th Edition probably would have been. It also is a

    MASSIVE change to the Clan and I think the vast majority of the changes are for the better.

    The Good

    1. The Giovanni main clan is now much more deemphasized with a far larger focus on the global nature of the offshoot clans.
    2. The "Destroy the World" plan from 2nd Edition is finally dead as that was always kind of silly.
    3. Rules for the Giovanni are now available, bringing us one step closer to a complete 13 clans.
    4. The Cappadocians, Harbingers, Giovanni, and so on are all one large Clan now and it is much more interesting to deal with their complicated relationships.
    5. I actually think Oblivion works much better for the Giovanni than it does for the Lasombra.
    6. The Hecata are immune to the Beckoning because if any Clan really needed a break there, it was them.
    7. The Fucking Putanesca joke is hilarious. I also like that the mobster element of the Clan was neither ignored nor made super prominent.
    8. Bringing an end to the Promise within 5 or so years means the Hecata will now be useful as members become part of the Camarilla even if the Clan itself remains independent.
    9. The rules are actually good for the Oblivion discipline and necromancy.

    The Bad

    1. Shoverling the Samedi, Nagaraja, and other Bloodlines under one banner via MAGIC is just silly. The Nagaraja are a SETITE bloodline, not a Cappadocian.
    2. The Hecata is a weird ass name for a Clan that has nothing particularly feminine, Greek, or witchcrafty about it.
    3. The Second Inquisition hit the Mausoleum (which people should note is a skyscraper in a city that can't support skyscrapers) and destroyed most of the Giovanni elders. The only reason people aren't saying this is as bad as Vienna is because everyone agrees the Mausoleum is a stupid concept to begin with and fewer people bought this book.
    4. Killing Augustus Giovanni apparently off-camera.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Let the Streets Run Red is just a bunch of awesome adventures and cities regardless of whether they're V5 or not.
      In my opinion, it's a mixed bag, but it has some really good things. I have adapted one of the adventures (the one in Milwaukee and Indianapolis) to my game and used some elements from the setting in mine. Regarding the other ones, I like some of it vibes but hasn't found the way to use them in my current game.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        The Hecata

        I think as a referendum on V:TM 5E, the Hecata are probably what the OPP peeps will probably be remembered for most. While CBN5E reintroduced the Lasombra and that was taken by Coteries of New York to be the basis of its sequel, really, the Hecata are the biggest change to the traditional World of Darkness.

        Part of this is due to the fact that the Giovanni were always very controversial to WOD because they started as one of the WORST clans but Justin Achilli made them into one of the BEST clans because he really went hard on the "this is a group of sickening degenerate MONSTERS. Not because they're vampires but because the family is just evil and wrong."

        Which was refreshing to a lot of people who felt the horror element of V:TM was underdeveloped in 2nd Edition.

        I think OPP was given more or less a free hand for the development of this clan and Cults of the Blood Gods shows what OPP's idea for 4th Edition probably would have been. It also is a

        MASSIVE change to the Clan and I think the vast majority of the changes are for the better.
        Yeah. While I do love a lot of CotBG's material, my favorite part is the Hecata. I've been a long time fan of the Giovanni and the overhaul of the Clan into the Hecata is hands down my favorite part of V5 to date. Which admittedly isn't saying much but it does go to show that in the right hands, the new material of V5 can be great.

        One part of that is simply the section where they talk about how Hecata Coteries or individual PCs can get involved with the other Sects and the other Kindred. It's one thing that always irked me about the Giovanni and how they were treated in earlier editions, that their neutrality made them apolitical and outside what other Kindred were doing. I've long seen the Giovanni as a group that shouldn't outside of Kindred politics but waist deep in it, their neutrality serving as a means to make deals with everybody while ensuring that none of the Sects would attempt to take them out. After all the Sects may not like or trust them but they're too useful and attempting to take them out would only push them into a rival Sect's camp. And that's how the Giovanni like that. It's also how I would run the Giovanni in my Chronicles. Unfortunately it wasn't really the case when I wasn't the ST and it would be a struggle to get other STs to allow me to play the 'neutral' Giovanni Clan. So a section in an official book on using the Hecata and how they can work with other Clans and Sects was long overdue.

        2. The "Destroy the World" plan from 2nd Edition is finally dead as that was always kind of silly.
        Yeah, the Endless Night was always a bit of a joke. It was never going to happen. Even in Gehenna when they were throwing out all these different scenarios the Giovanni and the Endless Night was treated as a joke.

        Frankly CotBG gave us the best idea of the Endless Night:

        Now that I think about it, Uncle Auggie did bring about his Endless Night, in a way. It’s us. We are of the Hecata, now. We are the Endless Night.
        And given the whole religious bent that some Hecata have, I like the idea of the Endless Night being viewed as the rebirth of the Clan than some absurd idea of tearing down the Shroud.

        4. The Cappadocians, Harbingers, Giovanni, and so on are all one large Clan now and it is much more interesting to deal with their complicated relationships.
        Indeed, that's another thing I love about the Hecata, the new internal politics of the Clan. It's another thing about the Giovanni that irked me (to be fair, V5 did address this) was that Giovanni seemed too ridged and ordered. They came across like the Tremere to a degree but without the structure and the whole Blood Bond chain to enforce that structure.

        But now the Hecata are in an interesting place. With how fresh the shake-up of the Family Reunion as well as the lingering bad blood between the various Bloodlines, things are tense and uncertain within the Clan. Even old Roger Camden while uncertain if the current situation within the Clan will last, is also rather optimistic about the situation. Toss in the various mystical and spiritual stuff some members having been going on about, it leaves the Clan in an interesting place.

        Before I could never really see a lot going on in Giovanni Chronicles. But with the Hecata I can see people playing Hecata Chronicles with little involvement of other Clans and Sects with how the Clan is now.

        Of course it doesn't hurt that the book also includes a Hecata Chronicle.

        5. I actually think Oblivion works much better for the Giovanni than it does for the Lasombra.
        Agreed though I still find some of the whole mashing Disciplines together as V5 has done a bit awkward and weird.

        6. The Hecata are immune to the Beckoning because if any Clan really needed a break there, it was them.
        Honestly it makes sense given that Cappadocious became a Spectre and possibly had his soul split in three and the death of Augustus as there would be no one really left to Beckon them.

        7. The Fucking Putanesca joke is hilarious. I also like that the mobster element of the Clan was neither ignored nor made super prominent.
        Indeed it is. Also, everyone knows that every family has that one member that no one likes. For the Hecata that's the Fucking Putanesca. So it makes sense to stick them with the worst job and the one most likely to run afoul of the mortal authorities and potentially the SI.

        8. Bringing an end to the Promise within 5 or so years means the Hecata will now be useful as members become part of the Camarilla even if the Clan itself remains independent.
        That's perhaps the most surprising change to the Hecata as nothing before ever suggested that the Promise would end. And like so many other things, it leaves the Hecata in an interesting place (and the Cam for that matter) as no one really knows what's going to happen when it finally expires. Hell, both the Hecata and the Cam are trying to find that out but between the Beckoning, the SI and the Family Reunion, there aren't too many around these nights that know the details of the Promise.

        That alone could serve as the plot of Chronicle for Kindred of any alignment.

        1. Shoverling the Samedi, Nagaraja, and other Bloodlines under one banner via MAGIC is just silly. The Nagaraja are a SETITE bloodline, not a Cappadocian.
        Honestly with the Samedi, there was existing speculation that they were connected to the Cappadocians so it's not really strange for me that they would be be considered part of the Family. In fact it's really only the Nagaraja that were the weird addition as every other Bloodline originated from the Cappadocians or at least were suspected of being a Cappa Bloodline. Though I wouldn't really call them a Setite Bloodline as like the Tremere, they were Mages that turned themselves into vampires by a magical ritual involving Setite Blood. If they're a Setite Bloodline than the Tremere could be seen as a Tzimisce Bloodline. Or possibly Salubri.

        2. The Hecata is a weird ass name for a Clan that has nothing particularly feminine, Greek, or witchcrafty about it.
        Actually it makes sense if the Capuchin's claims that it was the pre-Christian name of the Clan is true as the Greek Goddess Hecate did have things like Magic, Ghosts and Graves among her sphere of influence. A figure would be an influence on the Clan back then.

        Hell given how deep Cappadocius fell for Christianity, who's to say he hadn't fallen hard for a Hecate Mystery Cult before that?

        3. The Second Inquisition hit the Mausoleum (which people should note is a skyscraper in a city that can't support skyscrapers) and destroyed most of the Giovanni elders. The only reason people aren't saying this is as bad as Vienna is because everyone agrees the Mausoleum is a stupid concept to begin with and fewer people bought this book.
        If I remember right, they had their hands tied by one of the initial books mentioning how the SI hit the Giovanni hard. Possibly even the Mausoleum strike. So they couldn't completely get away from the SI being involved.

        Though I don't quite remember if it was specifically said that the SI attacked the Mausoleum. A quick search of the PDF didn't turn up much. Roger Camdem says that attack on Venice was done by the Harbingers backed up by younger rebel Giovanni. Which seems to be the common line in the book when it comes to the fall Augustus and the Elder Giovanni, that it was more an internal war that brought down the old Giovanni Clan than the SI.

        4. Killing Augustus Giovanni apparently off-camera.
        Good riddance. Augustus was always a rather pathetic figure for an Ante.


        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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        • #49
          Yeah I don't remember anything in Cults about the SI hitting the Mausoleum.

          I'm pretty sure they're immune to the Beckoning because they routinely cull their clan, including their founder.

          They do remark in the book that the Nagaraja don't truly 'belong.' I don't think it's implied they originate from the same founder.

          What I like the most about the Hecata is they show that clans can kind of form in reverse. It doesn't have to start with a single founder and spread outwards, and can instead be vampires of various type who share blood and turn inwards. It's a nice reversal of the format.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            As a note, this isn't a thread about V5.

            It's a thread about OPP's V5 products.
            You can build a shinning city on a hill but if that hill was a pile of shit, not many people are going to want to visit that city. The foundations are just too weak. What good is having great legs if your heart isn't working? Supplements need a good core to work off of, and no matter how good OP makes things they'll continue to lose by building around a faulty core. There are also too many controversies. Everytime I hear something about WoD, it's something bad, like Bloodlines 2 being in development hell, or that last werewolf game sucking, and the only things actually being made are fairly ok text adventure games which is not a genre that excites people. My faith in WoD will be thin so long as V5's core remains the status quo.

            For a less severe comparison, we could discuss DAV20. I personally thought DAV20's core was bad. It wasn't V5 bad: It had merit and some good ideas, it didn't go out of it's way to fuck shit up, but it was still very flawed in my opinion. DAV20 got further books and these often had rules that targeted some of the problematic elements of the core book. But by that time, I wasn't so enthused about doing a DAV20 game, and who could be said to be keen to need multiple books open at the table to properly use the basic rules you want to use? The DAV20 supplements have all blured together in my head, I can't remember what was what. The corebook dictates the life and death of supplements.

            But this does get into the interesting issue of "conversation killers" which is the fact that if you hate absolutely everything about a product then there's not actually anything to discuss. I'm reminded of my time on No Mutants Allowed that is a Fallout website.

            There was a very interesting conversation about, essentially, how it was impossible to discuss what people disliked about Fallout 3 and Fallout 4. Why? Because the old school Fallout fans hated EVERYTHING about the games. They had nothing good to say about the games because from start to finish, it's all bad.

            So...there wasn't actually anything to discuss.
            Even as someone who doesn't mind F3 and will admit that 4 had a few cool ideas it's pretty clear that Bethesda didn't understand the themes and fundamentals of the Fallout universe and I can't blame them for wanting to exercise it from canon. Fallout isn't about crawling through ruins, supermutants, and belated 1950's parody. Fallout is about how humans form societal structures due to their circumstances and how they fall apart and come into conflict with one another (or you could say, Fallout, it's in the title). Fallout 3 being set 200 years after the bombs fell and yet everyone is still playing mad max rather than rebuilding is a pretty big spit in the face to those core themes. I would say the same about V5 choosing to depict vampires as an unfortunate persecuted minority who can't keep their heads on straight rather than a group of literally parasitic elites who do horrible things to keep their grip on society.


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            • #51
              The Heceta in blood gods are interesting because they implicitly go against a lot of the ideas of v5 but are genrally the best received of the re interpretations of the clans. They've got weird distinct powers, strong links with clan and lots of weird gonzo stuff from old editions: Italian merchant necromancer, femminist plague vampires, voodoo vampires and two flavours of crazy cannibal. It gives the clan a lot more flavour than other v5 clans.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                You can build a shinning city on a hill but if that hill was a pile of shit, not many people are going to want to visit that city. The foundations are just too weak. What good is having great legs if your heart isn't working? Supplements need a good core to work off of, and no matter how good OP makes things they'll continue to lose by building around a faulty core. There are also too many controversies. Everytime I hear something about WoD, it's something bad, like Bloodlines 2 being in development hell, or that last werewolf game sucking, and the only things actually being made are fairly ok text adventure games which is not a genre that excites people. My faith in WoD will be thin so long as V5's core remains the status quo
                Which gets to my point: so what is there to discuss? Which is not trying to shut you down but if you don't think V5 did anything right, isn't that the beginning and ending of all discussion? What more is there to say?

                Serious question.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #53
                  I like what I’ve seen so far of V5. I loved V20 it was the first WoD game I ever played but V5 is really super edgy and captures that cutting edge feel perfectly for a certain kind of game (though it’s not really that good so far for playing historical games or characters other than street-level neonates). But that could change.


                  Amethyst is my birthstone. She/they.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                    Yeah. While I do love a lot of CotBG's material, my favorite part is the Hecata. I've been a long time fan of the Giovanni and the overhaul of the Clan into the Hecata is hands down my favorite part of V5 to date. Which admittedly isn't saying much but it does go to show that in the right hands, the new material of V5 can be great.

                    One part of that is simply the section where they talk about how Hecata Coteries or individual PCs can get involved with the other Sects and the other Kindred. It's one thing that always irked me about the Giovanni and how they were treated in earlier editions, that their neutrality made them apolitical and outside what other Kindred were doing. I've long seen the Giovanni as a group that shouldn't outside of Kindred politics but waist deep in it, their neutrality serving as a means to make deals with everybody while ensuring that none of the Sects would attempt to take them out. After all the Sects may not like or trust them but they're too useful and attempting to take them out would only push them into a rival Sect's camp. And that's how the Giovanni like that. It's also how I would run the Giovanni in my Chronicles. Unfortunately it wasn't really the case when I wasn't the ST and it would be a struggle to get other STs to allow me to play the 'neutral' Giovanni Clan. So a section in an official book on using the Hecata and how they can work with other Clans and Sects was long overdue.

                    Yeah, I agree with almost everything you have to say about this. The benefit of the Hecate write-up is it MASSIVELY increases the amount of intra-Clan intrigue, makes the Clan a lot more diverse seeming, increases its global reach (it was there before but now it's front and center), while also makes the story more interesting. The fact the Promise is ending also allows the Giovanni/Hecata to be used in local games much better.

                    They're part of the Sects and Blood Cults now, for better and worse but mostly better.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #55
                      as someone who had largely avoided 'vampire: the masquerade' due to what i saw as an overabundance and overreliance on metaplot and lore (i did have 'ashes to ashes' and the first 'tzimisce' book and had tried playing a few games with some folks) i have to admit that i was initially excited about a new edition that was, well, NEW and not so tied down to the the railroad tracks.
                      that being said, i was initially disappointed with both the 'anarch' and 'camarilla' books and found the core book a bit of a mess but a fascinating one so i was a bit wary of expanding any further but 'chicago by night' finally sold me and i most certainly think that the onyx path books have been head and shoulders about the renegade books (to the point where it's honestly shocking) and i have found that playing this new edition mostly from the onyx path books has been an incredibly rich and rewarding experience for both me and my players and we have found the focus shift toward neonates and thinbloods to be very positive and that it allows us to create stories of our own where, previously, it just so often felt like player actions were more just overshadowed by the meavy hand of metaplot.
                      (i have particularly found 'cults of the blood gods' to be so very useful for building our game around [and have mined ideas from it for a host of other rpgs, as well.)


                      they/them.

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                      • #56
                        One thing that can be said for V5 as a fifth edition, in comparison to "H5" or "W5", even where it falls flat I can sometimes at least bestow a "you tried" sticker. At least you can see an attempt to continue the game, even when they're not convincing changes.

                        From what I have read, I would agree that OPPs was the best. I can't claim to have read all of them, my time and money are limited and V5's design/layout is frequently murder on my ADHD so I'm not always getting a lot, but I've read parts of CotBG and skimmed a few others (don't remember which specifically, but some are on this list. There were storylines and (I'm predictable, so) the Hecata were involved, that's all I remember.) I'm also admitedly skipping over some things because either they didn't catch my eye or because I recognise the edition has made a decision, but as I dislike the decision I am pretending no changes exist to be read regardless of how much sense they do or do not make.

                        A guide to building your own cult is a great idea. Requiem's strength, imo, is how it helps you build your stuff, and I feel that's a better strength to borrow from Masquerade's cousin than stuff like Blood Potency. I already know what a Setite is so I admittedly didn't read that section, but thank you for giving those back. Skipped the Mithraic cult, due to the fact that the Monty Coven gestalt conciousness idea was infinitely more interesting to me and I'm mad at Fall of London, reminding me once again why I don't get invested in metaplot because all it does is take interesting things away. I don't believe that was OPP's writing decision though, afaik. Ashfinders are a good idea for playing a thinblood, so that they too can join the personal-horror bastard-in-denial moral-angst fest. A good reminder for anybody who thinks that a higher generation makes you morally superior to the lower gens. Cannot agree with what was done with the Cleopatras. Needless and weird.

                        There's a reason (two, actually) I usually fixate on the Hecata above other developments though, and it's because I consider it both the best outcome of an inevitable event and one of the better developments. A lot of changes read to me like a big change was made and then they tried to justify it afterwards. The Hecata have a reasonable set up. Cappadocius was already established as not being the Ante's original name. We already had the resentment of younger Giovanni, the minor families chafing under their leash, the other bloodlines moving in the shadows, etc. I always figured that an updated metaplot was going to do something with those, and that was a concern. On the one hand, I've always wanted to play a modern Cappadocian without needing to do backflips to make it work. On the other hand, I love the Giovanni and didn't want to loose them. Rather than blocking me from the former or utterly destroying the later, I got the Hecata, who aren't anywhere near perfect but at least give me both options on the table. It also marks the first time the metaplot has added more things I enjoy to the metaplot, rather than nuking them and going; "hey, that thing you liked is no longer playable, canonically speaking. Get fucked : )." Hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since and probably never will again, but who am I to look a miracle gift horse in the mouth? They even went a bit further. I don't particularly care about the Lamia, but hey, if you did then they're back too. (Now put the Tal'Mahe'Ra back.)

                        I feel like metaplot developments would be better if used in VtR's Danse Macarbe, V20 and BJD style. I believe that was OPP's work too? "Here's some options, pick what you want, here's how to implement this and if you dislike this, here's how you do that." Not "we're dropping bombs on this, that and this. No more badwrongfun. Suck it up."

                        Also;

                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        2. The Hecata is a weird ass name for a Clan that has nothing particularly feminine, Greek, or witchcrafty about it.
                        It is very witchcraft-y according to classical sources.

                        Hekate "sepulchral, in a saffron veil arrayed, pleased with dark ghosts that wander through the shade" has a sphere of influence that covers the night, ghosts, witchcraft (ie, necromancy), crossroads/boundaries. She has been referred to as Anassa Eneroi/Anassa Eneri, Queen of Those Below/the Dead. Later became associated and syncretised with the Roman Trivia, or adopted by the Romans under that name? Something like that. Bestie of Dread Persephone, Queen of the Underworld and the dead who reside in it.
                        When the desperate resort to necromancy, to petition the spirits of the dead to give them knowledge or curse their enemies, or to seek passage into the Underworld itself, Hekate will be amongst the Gods petitioned for their permission
                        She is accompanied by a train of ghosts. She led Demeter into the Underworld, granted access to the Sibyl and Aneas. She leads a parade of nightmares, curses and ghosts through the night streets while the living cower in their homes and dogs everywhere start barking and howling in fear (and she thinks its funny). Alternatively she bars their access to the world of the living.

                        The Cappadocians and Giovanni have geographic/cultural proximity, sort of. Hekate is thought by some to have originated from Anatolia (although admittedly at the opposite end to Cappadocia, which is more Persia adjacent than to Greece, afaik. There was some hellenisation politically, but I don't know that it significantly displaced Zoroastrianism in any way. Cults to Hekate did exist North to there, so certainly Cappadocius could've been linked to/influenced by the goddess.), and obviously Greece had influence on Rome. The Giovanni paradigm almost literally is classical necromancy, drawing on the Ancient Greek concept of miasma and they still have old Roman pagan influences in their paradigm/religious practices, including a classical underworld deity (Dis Pater, occasionally associated by some with Orcus or Pluto, and by extension Hades).

                        Ironically, for the edition that's trying to divorce clans from their geographical roots, this is possibly adding to them. It further entrenches WoD's blood magic into real world occultism, history and religions instead of stripping it away and I adore it. Which makes a nice change from the Ministry and Tremere.

                        Anyway, I think Hekate fits them just fine for a namesake.
                        Last edited by Rhywbeth; 11-20-2022, 10:40 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post
                          It is very witchcraft-y according to classical sources.

                          Hekate "sepulchral, in a saffron veil arrayed, pleased with dark ghosts that wander through the shade" has a sphere of influence that covers the night, ghosts, witchcraft (ie, necromancy), crossroads/boundaries. She has been referred to as Anassa Eneroi/Anassa Eneri, Queen of Those Below/the Dead. Later became associated and syncretised with the Roman Trivia, or adopted by the Romans under that name? Something like that. Bestie of Dread Persephone, Queen of the Underworld and the dead who reside in it.
                          When the desperate resort to necromancy, to petition the spirits of the dead to give them knowledge or curse their enemies, or to seek passage into the Underworld itself, Hekate will be amongst the Gods petitioned for their permission
                          She is accompanied by a train of ghosts. She led Demeter into the Underworld, granted access to the Sibyl and Aneas. She leads a parade of nightmares, curses and ghosts through the night streets while the living cower in their homes and dogs everywhere start barking and howling in fear (and she thinks its funny). Alternatively she bars their access to the world of the living.

                          The Cappadocians and Giovanni have geographic/cultural proximity, sort of. Hekate is thought by some to have originated from Anatolia (although admittedly at the opposite end to Cappadocia, which is more Persia adjacent than to Greece, afaik. There was some hellenisation politically, but I don't know that it significantly displaced Zoroastrianism in any way. Cults to Hekate did exist North to there, so certainly Cappadocius could've been linked to/influenced by the goddess.), and obviously Greece had influence on Rome. The Giovanni paradigm almost literally is classical necromancy, drawing on the Ancient Greek concept of miasma and they still have old Roman pagan influences in their paradigm/religious practices, including a classical underworld deity (Dis Pater, occasionally associated by some with Orcus or Pluto, and by extension Hades).

                          Ironically, for the edition that's trying to divorce clans from their geographical roots, this is possibly adding to them. It further entrenches WoD's blood magic into real world occultism, history and religions instead of stripping it away and I adore it. Which makes a nice change from the Ministry and Tremere.

                          Anyway, I think Hekate fits them just fine for a namesake.
                          Madam/Sir, It is just a word. (/s just in case it wasn't obvious)



                          What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                          • #58
                            One of the things I liked in the new Chicago By Night was Prince Kevin Jackson. You don’t need to be a powerful elder with maxed out attributes, skills or disciplines to be the king. Just opportunities and knowing how to work people to go along with your vision and not mention being pragmatic that things can shift on a dime.


                            What in the name of Set is going on here?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post



                              Ironically, for the edition that's trying to divorce clans from their geographical roots,.
                              I'm not a fan of that. Different Antes laired in different places, and popped out most of their baby 4rth gens in those places. Tzim laired in the Carpathians. Of course the most powerful Tzims are going to be from there. Lasomba laired in the Mediterranean and popped out most of his baby 4rth gens there. Of course most of the most powerful Lasombras are going to be from that region. The only clan with a legit reason to be spread randomly would be the Gangrel, as Ennoia was a wanderer.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Stannis View Post
                                I'm pretty sure they're immune to the Beckoning because they routinely cull their clan, including their founder.
                                I wouldn't say routinely. There were three big cullings within the Clan of Death, the Feast of Folly, the Cappadocian Pruge and the Family Reunion. And despite that there are some elder vampires of Clan still out there. The most notable being Lazarius, who might be the Capuchin or one of the three who play the role of the Capuchin, who is an ancient 4th Gen that's been around for ages. And if he is indeed the Capuchin than he had a major role in the Family Reunion and is a major force within the Clan to the point that some consider the Capuchin the defacto leader of the Clan, above even the Anziani Council.

                                The likely reasons for their immunity to the Beckoning is that either because Cappadocius is dead and gone (or at least utterly an insane Spectre and not in any position to actually do anything) and those remaining ancient, powerful 4th Gens that could Beckon them were involved with creating the Hecata therefore don't really have a reason to Beckon them. Alternatively, there is speculation that Augustus wasn't just killed but was sacrificed in a ritual that welded the Bloodlines back together, hence the replacement of their old Bloodline Curses for the Giovanni Curse, and that said ritual also granted them protection from the Beckoning. Assuming of course that those being Beckoned aren't just being Beckoned by Ancients of their respective Clans.

                                Personally I think it's more that those being Beckoned are being called by the eldest of their respective Clans and the reason the Hecata aren't is like I said, the known surviving ancient Cappadocians likely had a hand in creating the Hecata or likewise benefiting from the situation.

                                What I like the most about the Hecata is they show that clans can kind of form in reverse. It doesn't have to start with a single founder and spread outwards, and can instead be vampires of various type who share blood and turn inwards. It's a nice reversal of the format.
                                Not really. Nearly all the Bloodlines that make up the Hecata can trace their lineage to Cappadocius. They were once one Clan but events divided them and now they've come back together. Hence why the event that forged the Hecata was called the Family Reunion. In fact, in the fluff chapter about the Hecata where it's presented via the words of various Hecata, having them frequently referring to the Clan and each other in terms of family.

                                So it's less disparate Bloodlines coming together to forge a Clan and more that a once fractured Clan has become whole again.

                                A Family Reunion as it were.

                                Originally posted by Lysander View Post
                                One of the things I liked in the new Chicago By Night was Prince Kevin Jackson. You don’t need to be a powerful elder with maxed out attributes, skills or disciplines to be the king. Just opportunities and knowing how to work people to go along with your vision and not mention being pragmatic that things can shift on a dime.
                                It also helps that he was one powerful and capable enough vampires left after Lodin 'died'. Frankly Jackson coming out on top was never really a surprise for me. Even before I learned Jackson eventually succeeded Lodin, I considered him one of the strongest contenders for the Princedom. In fact I figured that barring the manipulations of Helena or Menele, it would either be Jackson or Ballard. I suppose Annabelle could have been the only non-Ventrue that could have had a decent shot at it but while she certainly has the ambition to go for the Princedom, I find her lacking in actual ability to effectively rule. She's too... hedonistic for the lack of a better word, for the job.



                                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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