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OPP V5 and what I like about it

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  • #61
    The one disparate Bloodline in the Hecata is the Nagaraja. They were a weird Setite bloodline formed when a group of Mages in the Underworld used magic on Setite blood in order to become vampires. They had no relationship to the Cappadocians (other than possibly a business one via the Capuchin and their position in the True Black Hand) prior to the Family Reunion. Apparently whatever mystical ritual the Cappadocians engaged in during the Family Reunion, it caused the Nagaraja to cease being a Setite bloodline and instead become Hecata.

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    • #62
      I do really appreciate the Giovanni being allowed to do things rather than just be set dressing due to the Promise. The Promise is one of my least favorite aspects of pre-V5 and really limited what the people could do with the Clan of Death. So, props to OPP to make them able to get involved more directly into games and become a real option instead of a trap option.

      I also really like the Clan of Death coming together to basically be a Necromancy Guild. It's one of the things that really kind of boggles me when you have the Pyramid which tries to control and monopolize magic in the Camarilla to the point of having certain houses that allow non-Tremere members (thinking of High Saturday and Hashem specifically) but, when the Clan of Death does the same thing for necromancy it's weird they take the Nagaraja into their origination because they are not a Cappadocian linage? I get that they are a Setite bloodline at least in the same way the Tremere are a Tzimisce Bloodline. However, that has never stopped the Giovanni to rope people into 'The Family Business' like the Della Passaglia or Ghiberti and the Pisanob. So, I view it less the saying the Nagaraja are a Cappadocian Bloodline but are now "part of the family." (Plus, whatever ritual or magic to make it so).

      Like wise I love the idea of the Clan of death having their own weird mystery cult devoted to the Underworld and Necromancy. The pre-V20 material talked about it a bit with 'Dis Pater' and plus the whole Cappadocian Christianity. Having that expanded upon is great.

      Now for the bad for me, I don't really care for the scenario that brought the Hecata into existence in the first place. But that really points to the larger issues I have with V5 in general. In the same vein I don't really care for the idea oblivion as a discipline. I also really don't care for the name 'Hecata' in general, not because the Clan of Death doesn't deal with witchery but mostly because I think there is a real missed opportunity to pull from previous themes.

      I really should pick up 'Cults', so I don't feel like I'm talking out my ass. I'm mostly am but, this is just from what my understand of what is going on from what other I have read and been told about that book.

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      • #63
        So where do I find info on the Nagaraja being tied to The Followers Of Set? I only knew of them from Dirty Secrets Of The Black Hand and figured that they worked with Cappadocian vitae to turn themselves into vampires.


        What in the name of Set is going on here?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Lysander View Post
          So where do I find info on the Nagaraja being tied to The Followers Of Set? I only knew of them from Dirty Secrets Of The Black Hand and figured that they worked with Cappadocian vitae to turn themselves into vampires.
          They're listed as coming from Followers of Set in Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand and it's not really a close relationship. It's basically the Tremere stolen magic situation except they used Setite blood instead of Tzimisce.


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          • #65
            I don't remember the clan of the vampires who "provided" the vitae for the Nagaraja experiment being mentioned in DSotBH. It was unnamed as far as I can recall. It's not mentioned in the actual bloodline description. Although it is possible I just missed it and its mentioned somewhere in the book. A lot of facts tend to not be mentioned in places where they should, or at least the text buries them so my eyes glaze over.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by MrNatas View Post
              I do really appreciate the Giovanni being allowed to do things rather than just be set dressing due to the Promise. The Promise is one of my least favorite aspects of pre-V5 and really limited what the people could do with the Clan of Death. So, props to OPP to make them able to get involved more directly into games and become a real option instead of a trap option.

              I also really like the Clan of Death coming together to basically be a Necromancy Guild. It's one of the things that really kind of boggles me when you have the Pyramid which tries to control and monopolize magic in the Camarilla to the point of having certain houses that allow non-Tremere members (thinking of High Saturday and Hashem specifically) but, when the Clan of Death does the same thing for necromancy it's weird they take the Nagaraja into their origination because they are not a Cappadocian linage? I get that they are a Setite bloodline at least in the same way the Tremere are a Tzimisce Bloodline. However, that has never stopped the Giovanni to rope people into 'The Family Business' like the Della Passaglia or Ghiberti and the Pisanob. So, I view it less the saying the Nagaraja are a Cappadocian Bloodline but are now "part of the family." (Plus, whatever ritual or magic to make it so).
              Indeed. The Hecata are now one part Clan, one-part Family, one-part Cult and one-part Sect. In fact the book also features a Hecata chronicle with a pre-made coterie which includes a Toreador and a Thin-blood, the former having actually become a member of the Hecata.

              So yeah, it's completely viable to not just play the non-Hecata members in Hecata coterie (and vice versa) but you can have those not of Hecata Blood join the Hecata. Hell, some Harbingers are using the general ignorance of the other Kindred about their existence and the reorganization of the Giovanni into the Hecata to go back to their old ways of spies or the case of those Cappadocians that have joined the Harbingers, chamberlains and advisors.

              Now for the bad for me, I don't really care for the scenario that brought the Hecata into existence in the first place. But that really points to the larger issues I have with V5 in general. In the same vein I don't really care for the idea oblivion as a discipline. I also really don't care for the name 'Hecata' in general, not because the Clan of Death doesn't deal with witchery but mostly because I think there is a real missed opportunity to pull from previous themes.
              Honestly the Family Reunion and the Birth of the Hecata is pretty all based on material from previous editions. The V5 metaplot has little to do with it. Hell the most V5 has to do with it is that the SI were hitting them like everyone else, helping to push some of the other Bloodlines into the Hecata and leading to the Giovanni shifting their criminal enterprises to the now independent Bloodline of the Puttanesca, compartmentalizing it from the rest of the Clan.

              Both of which could easily be done without the SI. The Capuchin who has his fingers in the whole affair could have easily been the one to get the other Bloodlines on board. Likewise shifting the Giovanni's mob ties to the Puttanesca could have been a compromise to the other Bloodlines during the meetings that formed the Hecata to reduce the overall power of the Giovanni and balance things out more.

              In fact over in the STV someone created a V20 Chronicle that is basically that, the death of Augustus and the beginning of the formation of the Hecata.

              Really the only new stuff that V5 brought that actually brought to the situation were based on what already existed and could be seen as a natural evolution of the situation.

              I really should pick up 'Cults', so I don't feel like I'm talking out my ass. I'm mostly am but, this is just from what my understand of what is going on from what other I have read and been told about that book.
              As I and others have said, it's easily the best V5 book and one of the best VtM books OPP has published with plenty of material that could be ported over to previous editions.

              Hell earlier this year, a friend played in a V20 game that took the Nephilim Cult of the Toreador Michael and combined it with material from BJD, with Michael/Black Mary and the Dracon leading the Cult as only a mad, ancient Toreador, Baali and Tzimisce can.


              Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                I don't remember the clan of the vampires who "provided" the vitae for the Nagaraja experiment being mentioned in DSotBH. It was unnamed as far as I can recall. It's not mentioned in the actual bloodline description. Although it is possible I just missed it and its mentioned somewhere in the book. A lot of facts tend to not be mentioned in places where they should, or at least the text buries them so my eyes glaze over.

                I think it was in the V20 black hand book, with some bits in the Euthanatos MtA book. Basically there was a group of death mages (proto-Euthanatos) who discovered Enoch in the Underworld. They ended up being guardians but the city was attacked by Setites. Some of these mages ended up using True Magic to become vampires using the Setite blood as a catalyst.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                  Honestly the Family Reunion and the Birth of the Hecata is pretty all based on material from previous editions. The V5 metaplot has little to do with it. Hell the most V5 has to do with it is that the SI were hitting them like everyone else, helping to push some of the other Bloodlines into the Hecata and leading to the Giovanni shifting their criminal enterprises to the now independent Bloodline of the Puttanesca, compartmentalizing it from the rest of the Clan
                  I think part of the beneift of OPP's take on V5 is the metaplot is NOT THAT IMPORTANT for the setting. Which is something I think is interesting to note. Life is more or less going on the same as it always has for Kindred.

                  Just a little more dangerous due to hunters who aren't morons.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                    The original had a heavy element of "Family Guy" and "American Dad" style parody humor. A parody style that carried over into the "Bloodlines" game, which has a heavy element of that same sort of humor. It really feels like that's gone, because the game has been taken over by people who have zero sense of humor.

                    It also feels like it is now a game purely focused on having you only play the protagonist in the sorts of movies where the half-turned eventually kill the real vampires. You're Mina in "Dracula", you're Michael in "Lost Boys", etc. The game mechanics are designed in a way where you have subtle, but lethal, advantages over the real vampires. You have high humanity and low bane-rating, meaning that if you are a Brujah, you can kill your sire by tricking him into charging mindlessly into that booby-trap full of gasoline. If you are a Setite, you can smash that painted over window and blast your sire to ashes while you just take a few aggs. If you are a Ventrue, you can starve your sire of blood and willpower and then kill him in his weakened state. Etc, etc.

                    You begin with all the tools needed to beat that high bane rating, low humanity sire of yours, and it's all about keeping those tools long enough to do it. This is a vampire hunter game masquerading as a vampire game. Whereas older editions are "American Dad" with fangs.
                    That's exactly what 1st edition used to be about. The corebook included a cute little comic about an Elder who Embraces a married man because he reminds her of her old flame back in the time of Babylon. But he manages to kill her using sunlight and he becomes human again.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      I think part of the beneift of OPP's take on V5 is the metaplot is NOT THAT IMPORTANT for the setting. Which is something I think is interesting to note. Life is more or less going on the same as it always has for Kindred.

                      Just a little more dangerous due to hunters who aren't morons.
                      You do realize that V5 metaplot (and numerous mechanical changes which have dire implications) literally upend the setting. You can minimize the impact and localize a few things and say stuff like -nobody in the city got beckoned/ no local tremere considered a defection/ The SI aren't interested in the city/ the locals have utterly ignored anything concerning the inner circle clans (as they should) and consider Gangrel/Brujah as first-class citizens while shunning Assamites and Lasombra (which would be wise). But with the sheer scale of the changes it's impossible to fully shelter your city from the changes. For example, with the new generation rules, the idea of Gehenna becomes something of a joke, because elders really aren't that scary, and because anarch states are working just fine outside the city in significant number the prince's rule is undermined and anarchs within the city don't get that same sense of dread/futility/uphill battle that they would get normally. I could go on, but the point being it's really hard to accept that global catastrophees won't affect your living in a more sheltered city.


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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        You do realize that V5 metaplot (and numerous mechanical changes which have dire implications) literally upend the setting.
                        I'm confused.

                        Because the post you're responding to is how OPP did a great job with making the changes not matter that much. Can you point to what in the OPP books you don't think worked very well? Because, again, this isn't about V5. It's about OPP's handling of the subject.

                        It feels like you're arguing against a post in support of V5.

                        When my post is, "Man, I'm glad OPP walked back some things."

                        So what did OPP do poorly?


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          I'm confused.

                          Because the post you're responding to is how OPP did a great job with making the changes not matter that much. Can you point to what in the OPP books you don't think worked very well? Because, again, this isn't about V5. It's about OPP's handling of the subject.

                          It feels like you're arguing against a post in support of V5.

                          When my post is, "Man, I'm glad OPP walked back some things."

                          So what did OPP do poorly?
                          It's simple: I don't think you can walk back the changes. They're too big.

                          That OPP know that it's a good idea to walk back the changes is a sign that maybe the changes should just be undone completely.


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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            I think part of the beneift of OPP's take on V5 is the metaplot is NOT THAT IMPORTANT for the setting.

                            That's probably not a good thing considering how light on rules the games are. What are you ultimatly paying for without crunch and fluff?
                            Last edited by Ragged Robin; 11-23-2022, 01:39 AM.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                              That's probably not a good thing considering how light on rules the games are. What are you ultimatly playing for without crunch and fluff?
                              The incredibly well-detailed setting, lore, and characters.

                              In OPP, the Beckoning and Second Inquisition are there but they're optional things you can run games with that ignore them and won't feel like you're violating canon. You can live your entire unlife without dealing with either.

                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              It's simple: I don't think you can walk back the changes. They're too big.

                              That OPP know that it's a good idea to walk back the changes is a sign that maybe the changes should just be undone completely.
                              Okay, though I disagree. I think they made the Beckoning and Second Inquisition exactly as relevant as they should be - only there if you want to address them but otherwise an unimportant background element.

                              OPP's take is very much a toolbox that has them as tools to use or not as according to your style.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                The incredibly well-detailed setting, lore, and characters.

                                In OPP, the Beckoning and Second Inquisition are there but they're optional things you can run games with that ignore them and won't feel like you're violating canon. You can live your entire unlife without dealing with either.

                                Pretty much all of that is the stuff from older editions but heavily stripped down. Heceta being the exception which feeds into the oynx path stuff genrally being better but very hard to justify on that basis alone.

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