OPP V5 and what I like about it

[Barachiel]

I"ve been very negative in my opinion of V5, made worse by the fact that I recently re-read BJD and was just so sad to see all the great ideas in that book squandered for what to be the least interesting take on what few ideas it did use.

That said, I was a huge fan of OPP V20 and seeing an up to date product list of what they've published for V5, I'm willing to give it another look. Especially hte new Chicago book. Thanks for the list.

Question, I've only skimmed this thread, but what are some of the differences between OPP and WW V5?

[CTPhipps]

Question, I've only skimmed this thread, but what are some of the differences between OPP and WW V5?

Generally, it's presentation but if I were to summarize the differences, I'd state that OPP V5 is specifically a lot closer to the classic World of Darkness and downplays the changes of V5 to the setting to the point that they exist and can be incorporated into the game but not so much as they ever have to dominate or prevent a classic WOD game. OPP also incorporates a large amount of previously neglected lore into the V5 setting as well as updates things that had been ignored by the new setting. The books contain a good deal of missing information from the books as well, including a couple of Clans.

Things OPP added that weren't in other V5 products

* What the followers of Ur-Shulgi have been up to for the past twenty years (Forbidden Religions).

* What the Tal'Mah'Re became after the destruction of Enoch (Forbidden Religions)

* How the Church of Set and Typhonists reacted to the Ministry's new polytheism and sycreticism (Cults of the Blood Gods).

* The rules for the Lasombra Clan after they were ignored by the main book and supplements (Chicago by Night)

* The rules for the Giovanni, Samedi, Cappadocians, Harbingers of Skulls, and Nagaraja (Cults of the Blood Gods)

* An update to all of the Giovanni mortal families and new rules for them (Cults of the Blood Gods)

* The Lure of Flames adapted to V5 as rituals for Blood Sorcery (Cults of the Blood Gods)

* The updated version of how to handle the Bah'ari (Cults of the Blood Gods)

* The updated version of how to handle Caine worship and Noddists (Cults of the Blood Gods)

* An updated verison of the Church of Mithras (way better than Fall of London, Cults of the Blood Gods)

* An updated version of Michael's cult from Constantinople surviving to the modern day (Cults of the Blood Gods)

* City write-up for Chicago (Chicago by Night)

* City write-up for Milwaukee, Indianapolis, and Gary, Indiana (Let the Streets Run Red)

* City write-up for Atlantic City, Florence, and Copenhagen (Ash and Bone)

* A Second Inquisition prison-site for holding Kindred and modus apparandi for hunting Kindred that doesn't necessarily turn into all out of war but methodical
spying as well as game playing (Chicago by Night)

* A smaller Second Inquisition Christian militia and cult that is large enough to threaten the PCs but small enough to be dealt with (The Chicago Folios)

* Dozens of adventure hooks based primarily on low stakes, personal horror roleplaying (The Chicago Folios)

* An example of how Anarchs and Camarilla factions might share the same city without open warfare (Chicago by Night)

In simple terms, OPP V5 feels like it is a CONTINUATION of the Old World of Darkness and not a reboot. It relies heavily on lore and provides a lot of CONTEXT (bolded for a reason) for the changes as well as examples of how they might work out between characters. You know how the factions interact, what they think of one another, and what sort of interactions they might have.

As we see with some of the write-ups here and the fact Matthew Dawkins wrote a good chunk of this, we also know that BJD's foreshadowing of OPP's plans resulted in them shoving as much as they could from their original 4th Edition idea into their products for V5.

These include the following from BJD:

* The split between Orthodox Setites and Pagan Reformer Setites
* The Harbinger Family Reunion that was wholesale incorporated into V5
* The return of the Tal'Mah'Re to semi-active status within the setting
* The mainstream Banu Haqim being hunted by the insane Ur-Shulgi fanatics that are ultimately just a deranged cult.
* The Church of Mithras becoming a much bigger thing than it was (Dawkins loves himself some Mithras--and who can blame him?)
* Noddism and other blood cults becoming much more mainstream among Neonates and Ancilla.
* Decker and Milwaukee becoming police states under his totalitarian control.
* Chicago, Milwaukee, and the Goblin Roads
* The return of Constantinople Michael cultism to mainstream modern times.

Now there's a lot of BJD stuff that flat out didn't get carried forward, any and all Sabbat plans were utterly derrailed but I'm glad OPP has been doing their best to salvage what they could.

[Barachiel]

God, that reboot comment really touched on what bugged me most about V5. It didn't feel like a natural continuation. Especially not when I head what they did to Lasombra and Obtenebration. At least with the Malks, you have a way to justify the Dominate-to-Dementation shift. But Obtenebration-to-Oblivion just feels too jarring. Does that get sorted out any better?

I've been slowly making my way through this thread. My initial reaction to the Hecata were an eye-roll, thinking they'd be worse than V5 Lasombra. But I have to admit, what I've been able to piece together here sounds... interesting. Which sourcebook has the most details on "The Family Reunion" I keep hearing about?

[CTPhipps]

God, that reboot comment really touched on what bugged me most about V5. It didn't feel like a natural continuation. Especially not when I head what they did to Lasombra and Obtenebration. At least with the Malks, you have a way to justify the Dominate-to-Dementation shift. But Obtenebration-to-Oblivion just feels too jarring. Does that get sorted out any better?

I've been slowly making my way through this thread. My initial reaction to the Hecata were an eye-roll, thinking they'd be worse than V5 Lasombra. But I have to admit, what I've been able to piece together here sounds... interesting. Which sourcebook has the most details on "The Family Reunion" I keep hearing about?

Cults of the Blood Gods is about 50% Vampire Religions and 50% Giovanni/Hecata.

As for Obternationa/Oblivion, not really, but the idea that Lasombra shadows always came from the Underworld/Abyss was a thing before.

[CTPhipps]

To be frank, I feel like the Church of Caine, the Tal'Meh'Re survivalists, and Lasombra as written are the OPP's attempts to salvage as much of the "real" Sabbat as possible.

[Barachiel]

Cults of the Blood Gods is about 50% Vampire Religions and 50% Giovanni/Hecata.

As for Obternationa/Oblivion, not really, but the idea that Lasombra shadows always came from the Underworld/Abyss was a thing before.

Oh the basic concept of it isn't too insane. But the way Obtenebration is just... GONE, and now its a discipline with a very different feel is just wild to me. Then again, 've not seen much of the new Lasombra either.

I broke up with WoD after the Cam and Anarch sourcebooks hit. But a Steam sale got me the 2 VTM visual novels and those text adventures. And they've been pretty good. Hearing how V5 has changed hands more than a Vegas stripper has added enough amusement for me to want to catch up with the goings-on, and see what the newcomers have done with it. I came here because I was curious if OPP had been left completely out in the cold. Glad to see they haven't been. =D

[adambeyoncelowe]

It's tricky to know which bits of OPP's V5 were things they wanted to do in V4, and which were things OPP inserted to match the vision Paradox had for the new edition. Didn't they start making tweaks and suggestions well before V5 was announced (e.g., with Changing Breeds)?

[Manfr]

As I've stated elsewhere, I feel this distinction between Ericsson's and OPP's V5 is largely artificial. V5 Core was written with great involvement from OPP freelancers, and it shows: it references many pieces of earlier lore, with a distinct philological taste, some pretty obscure or very OPPish (like the Drowned Legacies).

I think we are all a bit conditioned by the peculiar format of the V20 core, which compiled EVERYTHING into one massive tome of rules and lore: this wasn't a sustainable approach in launching a new edition, as you have to sell books to sustain a line, and those who read and buy VtM also expect metaplot advancement, not only new rules.

There were public disagreements between Ericsson and OPP, of course, but under his guide OPP was tasked with doing exactly what it did: creating content for the line. It was never tje job of WW to produce materials besides the three Core books.

What Charles lists as "differences" between OPP V5 and WW V5 are not ... well, differences, in as much as expansions of the original corebook, which is a refinement and a synthesis of most of what it was written in BJD.

The "reboot" logic is very recent, and it's specific of the new direction under Justin: BTW, it was something that V5 enemies have long wanted, an official declaration tht V5 was -not- the follow up to Revised and V20, but something which stood in its own multiverse.

Of course, the dissatisfaction against V5 in those segments is that large (and growing, with H5 and W5) that the reboot declaration by itself it's not enough, and they would probably be satisfied only by a retconning and OPP taking everything in its hands. Brand loyalty to V5 was often declared as the reason for edition warring, unfortunately, along of course with all the mistakes of bad communications that the WW team had done.

But the original V5 was very much envisioned as a continuation of earlier lore: it had plot holes? Probably so, just like V20 (the Tal' Maeh' rah hodgepodge of religions) or Revised, or earlier editions.


What do I think of OPP's work for V5? I wasn't a complete fan of all the V20 line, I felt at times it wasn't really engaging with time passing, but just trying to solve new problems in order to maintan the static equilibrium that V20 metaplot agnosticism required.

I'm happy V5 took some other choices, both in terms of metaplot evolution and above all of new rules, and I think OPP did adjust really well to this new framework. Their books are all very good: they do update a lot of earlier lore and contexts, and I love the sheer number of possibilities that the Chicago books give me.

[Manfr]

I think a big part of the reason that all of that was simplified was because it's now intended as the stat block for the antagonists. You're not supposed to work towards playing a Dread Necromancer. You're a neonate with such high humanity, low bane-rating, and low disciplines that you are practically human. The Dread Necromancer is the sire you are going to kill using the subtle advantages inherent in high humanity, low bane-rating, and the understanding of modern technology. You don't need attractive discipline options because you're never going to get enough discipline points for that to matter. The NPC sire doesn't need a lot of discipline options because he's just a monster stat-block, and ultimately just there for you to kill.

I'm not convinced. If you weren't supposed to use Oblivion or to play a necromancer, we wouldn't have got a whole half of a very thick book about necromancers, and multiple loresheets committed to necromancers afterwards, and multiple adventures involving them (with explicit advice on how to run them with all-Hecata groups). The same can be said for Lasombra: should you be not encouraged to play them, not only they wouldn't feature so prominently in Chicago, but we wouldn't have one of them as the protagonist in one of the main videogames of the line.

I think we shouldn't just assume V5 was born just in order to ruin our games, by totally incompetent people.

[Manfr]

Also, I do think the extreme peaks of loyalty to OPP we've seen after the release of V5 may be actively hurtful to OPP's business interest: why should Paradox let a potential Pathfinder live alongside their new edition (that they hoped would be 5th edition, but it increasingly seems to be 4th edition)?

if every possible release of Cofd and X20 lines gives segments of the fanbase arguments to foster edition warring, if everything a segment of the fanbase thinks is that OPP is hostage to evil ParaWolf, if OPP V5 products are considered somewhat apart from the others ... I think the risk that Paradox will block OPP from working on Wod-related licenses is real.

And it would be a massive loss for the line and the fandom.

[CTPhipps]

Let's avoid statements of, "I'm going against the grain" and "I'm going to be super unpopular here." That verges on baiting.

[Manfr]

Sorry, they were ironic: I've edited my comments.

[Heavy Arms]

It seems extremely odd to advocate that we should be nicer in our assessments of V5 team's intentions, while also scare-mongering that if we don't soothe Paradox's egos they'll ignore how the fan base is reacting to their business decisions, and then cut OPP out of the WoD and then cancel the CofD just to spite us.

If Paradox doesn't want to have a Pathfinder on their hands, they need to keep OPP as a business partner for the WoD and CofD That's what's keeping Onyx Path from making their own horror/urban fantasy games with the Storypath system. If Paradox seriously thinks a "Storypath of Darkness" isn't going to have all that OPP brand loyalty and thus be a serious contender for the WoD5 line's Pathfinder, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to not question their corporate competence.

[Manfr]

OPP may well pull a Storypath of darkness, and sell a good number of Kickstarter copies, but it would lack wider brand recognition, resources for funding retail distribution channels and compete not just with Wod, but also with the plethora of minor indie urban fantasy / horror games. Otherwise, they would probably have bought the license from CCP themselves at the time.

Maintaining a relationship with Paradox still gives them, I think, their chunk of x20, Cofd and V5 sales through STV, drivethrurpg and translation agreements. Which is better than nothing, in the time being.

Of course, if Paradox tries to close every Wod / Cofd venue for OPP, that would make the relationship much more unbalanced and probably unsustainable on the long term.

I do hope Paradox doesn't make what I would surely call a mistake, and OPP gets back soon working on Wod and Cofd products, I think it would be difficult for Renegade + Justin and a few others alone moving forward the whole franchise, and they are tested and proved.

[ArcaneArts]

Also, I do think the extreme peaks of loyalty to OPP we've seen after the release of V5 may be actively hurtful to OPP's business interest: why should Paradox let a potential Pathfinder live alongside their new edition (that they hoped would be 5th edition, but it increasingly seems to be 4th edition)?

if every possible release of Cofd and X20 lines gives segments of the fanbase arguments to foster edition warring, if everything a segment of the fanbase thinks is that OPP is hostage to evil ParaWolf, if OPP V5 products are considered somewhat apart from the others ... I think the risk that Paradox will block OPP from working on Wod-related licenses is real.

And it would be a massive loss for the line and the fandom.

If this somehow actually reflects Paradox actually would act, then they would deserve to be told all the more they've failed and to never be treated as a serious business to invest in ever again. Currently, the engagement is an attempt (however futile) is meant to part of the commercial discussion to help encourage Paradox to otherwise better ensnare our money, with a lot of good arguments (not all of which neccesarily includes ceding that OPP is the only one that can make these games profitable!) about how they can make that massive investment at least break even, if not profitable. If being frank that Paradox has made clear and obvious missteps and that Onyx Path is a reliable guide, if not a producer, results in a petty cancellation of cooperation and production*, then quite frankly they've proven any engagement with them is a useless endeavor rooted more in an ill-imagined power struggle than any commercial conversation. I would no more encourage that than I would advise someone in an abusive relationship to just go along with their "partner's" persepctive and desires.

I don't think Paradox is that petty, or that it plays towards being a commercial "abuser". I think they've proven extremely unequipped for the property or the ambitions they latched onto it, and that they're still a little too convinced they know how to make it work, but I believe they're still interested in making money, and while they may be slow to do so, I believe they're open to learning how to adjust (while the current management is still quite bad, it's definitely not quite as bad as when this shit show started). I don't have any illusions that they'll probably still have to really fuck up a lot more before they really start acting on any particular strain of good idea, but that action is doable.

But says nice things about Paradox's neck of V5 so they'll be nice and throw me a bone? Throw that in a dumpster, light it on fire, and walk away-a company that does that deserves to be abandoned.

*Also, considering they've basically cancelled Chronicles in all but name, being worried about the threat of them cancelling Chronicles is a wildly hilarious supposition. What am I gonna do, beg they don't burn the toy I don't have?