OPP V5 and what I like about it

[Heavy Arms]

Onyx Path has a decent amount of its own brand recognition at this point. They are doing the whole OPP10 thing this year after all. For a crude bit of comparison, Onyx Path has 15.7K followers on their official Twitter account, while the World of Darkness run by Paradox Twitter account has 29.6K. For the sake of some context since we also brought up Pathfinder, Paizo is sitting at 61.9. At this point in time. Onyx Path is not some indie studio that's only known about because they wrote some VtM books. The WoD brand, by itself, isn't actually some massive thing at the moment.

Given how much Paradox paid for the WoD/CofD/Exalted bundled, it's doubtful OPP could have just bought them a decade ago either. Onyx Path didn't have it's own in-house system to make games with that didn't involve licensing, and it didn't have a decade of building up its own community as more than just people that make books for video game companies that own the RPG IPs.

Personally, I think OPP can afford to lose Paradox more than Paradox can afford to lose OPP, esp. with how fans perceive how their relationship is impacting products meaning there's a lot of people that are going to side with OPP if that goes sour. One of the reasons why fans view, "OPP is hostage to evil ParaWolf" is because there's a trickle of X20 and CofD books in the schedule for OPP, there's no WoD5 books in the schedule besides any work from the previous Kickstarters to finish, and remember that OPP pays Paradox to make these books, not the other way around. Paradox seems to be closing all those venues for OPP to work on anything that isn't Exalted, which as you say isn't sustainable.

Paradox is in the process of making the mistake you don't want to see happen. That's why a lot of fans have grown even more unhappy with them.

[Manfr]

If this somehow actually reflects Paradox actually would act, then they would deserve to be told all the more they've failed and to never be treated as a serious business to invest in ever again. Currently, the engagement is an attempt (however futile) is meant to part of the commercial discussion to help encourage Paradox to otherwise better ensnare our money, with a lot of good arguments (not all of which neccesarily includes ceding that OPP is the only one that can make these games profitable!) about how they can make that massive investment at least break even, if not profitable. If being frank that Paradox has made clear and obvious missteps and that Onyx Path is a reliable guide, if not a producer, results in a petty cancellation of cooperation and production*, then quite frankly they've proven any engagement with them is a useless endeavor rooted more in an ill-imagined power struggle than any commercial conversation. I would no more encourage that than I would advise someone in an abusive relationship to just go along with their "partner's" persepctive and desires.

I don't think Paradox is that petty, or that it plays towards being a commercial "abuser". I think they've proven extremely unequipped for the property or the ambitions they latched onto it, and that they're still a little too convinced they know how to make it work, but I believe they're still interested in making money, and while they may be slow to do so, I believe they're open to learning how to adjust (while the current management is still quite bad, it's definitely not quite as bad as when this shit show started). I don't have any illusions that they'll probably still have to really fuck up a lot more before they really start acting on any particular strain of good idea, but that action is doable.

But says nice things about Paradox's neck of V5 so they'll be nice and throw me a bone? Throw that in a dumpster, light it on fire, and walk away-a company that does that deserves to be abandoned.

*Also, considering they've basically cancelled Chronicles in all but name, being worried about the threat of them cancelling Chronicles is a wildly hilarious supposition. What am I gonna do, beg they don't burn the toy I don't have?

I generally agree with your reasoning but possibily you are mixing up levels of discourse here (or I'm missing comprehension of some parts and getting confused)

I'm not talking about what Onyx Path should do, of course, OPP has done and is doing wonders, and of course I don't have any insight of what Paradox wants.

I'm just expressing my fears that constant edition warring in every possible online venue might backfire and lead Paradox into seeing OPP as an involuntary source of brand delegitimation, and so reduce their involvement.

Then, it may just be me over-reading these forums, but most of the active threads are in the Wod sections, and most of the active discussions are extremely hostile to v5 and ofter rather doom in tone on the future of the franchise. I may just have breathed too much negativity.

[Manfr]

Onyx Path has a decent amount of its own brand recognition at this point. They are doing the whole OPP10 thing this year after all. For a crude bit of comparison, Onyx Path has 15.7K followers on their official Twitter account, while the World of Darkness run by Paradox Twitter account has 29.6K. For the sake of some context since we also brought up Pathfinder, Paizo is sitting at 61.9. At this point in time. Onyx Path is not some indie studio that's only known about because they wrote some VtM books. The WoD brand, by itself, isn't actually some massive thing at the moment.

Given how much Paradox paid for the WoD/CofD/Exalted bundled, it's doubtful OPP could have just bought them a decade ago either. Onyx Path didn't have it's own in-house system to make games with that didn't involve licensing, and it didn't have a decade of building up its own community as more than just people that make books for video game companies that own the RPG IPs.

Personally, I think OPP can afford to lose Paradox more than Paradox can afford to lose OPP, esp. with how fans perceive how their relationship is impacting products meaning there's a lot of people that are going to side with OPP if that goes sour. One of the reasons why fans view, "OPP is hostage to evil ParaWolf" is because there's a trickle of X20 and CofD books in the schedule for OPP, there's no WoD5 books in the schedule besides any work from the previous Kickstarters to finish, and remember that OPP pays Paradox to make these books, not the other way around. Paradox seems to be closing all those venues for OPP to work on anything that isn't Exalted, which as you say isn't sustainable.

Paradox is in the process of making the mistake you don't want to see happen. That's why a lot of fans have grown even more unhappy with them.

Yes, that's why I expressed my fears, I see this as a definite risk.

As for brand recognition, as we move further from Kickstarter OPP has less traction. Out of the US, OPP is still mostly identified with WW and its properties. It would be a rocky landing to just stand on Storypath properties.

I don't really know how it will end: I just hope I'm wrong and we all get more books.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

Also, I do think the extreme peaks of loyalty to OPP we've seen after the release of V5 may be actively hurtful to OPP's business interest: why should Paradox let a potential Pathfinder live alongside their new edition (that they hoped would be 5th edition, but it increasingly seems to be 4th edition)?

if every possible release of Cofd and X20 lines gives segments of the fanbase arguments to foster edition warring, if everything a segment of the fanbase thinks is that OPP is hostage to evil ParaWolf, if OPP V5 products are considered somewhat apart from the others ... I think the risk that Paradox will block OPP from working on Wod-related licenses is real.

And it would be a massive loss for the line and the fandom.

I can't speak to any trend and can only speak in terms of my personal experience but it's hard somewhat of the opposite effect for me. IE due to how Paradox has handled various IPs and given ugly personal interactions, while I make no speculation as to motivations on their or anyone else's part on why what is happening is happening. I have as a result lost any interest in buying products I was planning to in regards to video games (especially Bloodlines 2 that I won't purchase under any circumstance regardless of reviews at this point) that fit the genres and quality I am comfortable spending, and any notion of spending money on a future WoD5 product I might have had passing interest in such as a possible Mage 5. If they wanted my money it'd be CofD only now and that ship seems to have sailed.

[CTPhipps]

Anyone have any thoughts on characters or writing for any of the books?

[ArcaneArts]

I generally agree with your reasoning but possibily you are mixing up levels of discourse here (or I'm missing comprehension of some parts and getting confused)

...

I'm just expressing my fears that constant edition warring in every possible online venue might backfire and lead Paradox into seeing OPP as an involuntary source of brand delegitimation, and so reduce their involvement.

I'm saying that if that's what happens with Paradox, then they will quite frankly have bought everything that comes to the table afterwards, and so I don't see that as much investment into accounting for that. If Paradox would pull contracts from OPP and other shutter all non-WoD projects because of this criticism, that's a sign to stop giving them any business or mind, not to "play nice" with them. To put it bluntly(albeit metaphorically), if Paradox were to behave as an abusive spouse, I wouldn't want anyone to respond "Yes dear" to that.

I am also saying that I don't think that is or will be the case beyond however much it already is-though to be fair, they have in all but name killed Chronicles already.

[Manfr]

Back to the topic, I've just started a V5 Chronicle with 6 newbie players at my tabletop association: I ran a bit of New Blood, but set it in Chicago and pointed to a shady deal between the Camarilla and the Inquisition to clear the city of troublemakers before "The Sacrifice" starts. PCs were picked up by Anita Wainwright and they are set to join the Anarchs.

I'd like to use Let the streets run red and eventually Trails of Ash and Bone, later on, I wish to first introduce them to vampire society and then move to Cults and vampiric myths, ending up with the Sacrifice (or perhaps running bits of it within the other adventures).

Which published adventure within those two books would you advise me to run, to get them into Anarch action (or at least, with some modifications, into Anarch troubles) ?

[Ragged Robin]

Anyone have any thoughts on characters or writing for any of the books?

It was nice to see Serena back, certainly sweetened the pill of the raw inplausibility of heceta.

[MrNatas]

If Paradox doesn't want to have a Pathfinder on their hands, they need to keep OPP as a business partner for the WoD and CofD That's what's keeping Onyx Path from making their own horror/urban fantasy games with the Storypath system. If Paradox seriously thinks a "Storypath of Darkness" isn't going to have all that OPP brand loyalty and thus be a serious contender for the WoD5 line's Pathfinder, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to not question their corporate competence.

Honestly, at this point this is what I would like. OPP is doing all the lore and system heavy lifting that, at least from the communities I frequent, people want out of the game. H5 and the previews from W5 have not shown me that people want parawolf's version of the World of Darkness but, I will admit possible confirmation bias.

I really enjoyed playing Scion and I'm happy that more books are coming out of it. I'll probably end up buying them even if my current group wouldn't want to play them. With Dragons and Mythos maybe we'll see that turn into its own larger Urban Fantasy setting? I'm hopeful at least.

[Lysander]

Anyone have any thoughts on characters or writing for any of the books?

I like Prince Kevin Jackson in the New Chicago By Night and what they did in Cult Of The Blood Gods for most part. I also like that they did away with the Dementation disciipline for the Malkavians and made the Setites more varied.

[Rhywbeth]

Anyone have any thoughts on characters or writing for any of the books?

I liked that the Giovanni section was narrated by Accorri, it was a nice tie in to kind of have a continuation of the opening fiction for the Clanbook. Wonder how Isabel's getting on with the Ministry?

[Lysander]

I liked that the Giovanni section was narrated by Accorri, it was a nice tie in to kind of have a continuation of the opening fiction for the Clanbook. Wonder how Isabel's getting on with the Ministry?

I'm sure we will find out in later supplements in regards to how Isabel is doing.

[JezMiller]

Thinking about my initial reaction to V5, I didn't like the "cool to be evul" * vibe in the core, but my main fear was that they were year-zero-ising everything, throwing away all the elders and lore and intricate backstory that allowed things like the Transylvania and Giovanni Chronicles, and moving to a Requiem, "toolbox" approach. Four things reassured me - Matthew Dawkins' video series, the Fall of London, the OPP books, and LA by Night - so I think you're onto something, albeit OPP wasn't the only factor. Modiphius did Fall of London (I think?), and Jason Carl did LAbN. Now that Achilli has taken over I suspect that the Paradox and OPP interpretation of V5 will move closer together.


* except for Nazis.

[JezMiller]

Let's cut down on the commentary on other posters both positive and negative. Grognards may not be a pejorative but we should comment on the subject rather than the people making the commentary.

I appealed to Google for clarification. The first suggestion didn't help
grognard

Learn to pronounce

adjectif et nom masculin

• 1.
  Qui a l'habitude de grogner.
  Ce qu'il est grognard !
• 2.
  nom masculin
  Soldat de la vieille garde, sous Napoléon I^er.

[Heavy Arms]

Grognard roughly means "grumbler." It's common use come from French soldiers during the Napoleonic era as the start of firearms based warfare really set in: Army leadership was still generally selected from the elite class of society, who didn't have to face the brutality of artillery, gas, and mass casualties cause by first massed firing lines, and then trench warfare. The high casualty rate meant a constant influx of new fresh soldiers seeing battle for the first time.

The grognards were the experienced soldiers and NCOs: they survived long enough to understand the reality of being on the ground of this style of war. They had to follow orders from far away generals that didn't get it, and try to teach fresh recruits how to really act while most of them were going to die anyway. This led to very low morale among said tier of solider, earning them the nickname grognard: because they were always grumbling about those above and below them in the chain of command.

Through war gaming, grognard became a term among RPG players as well: older players that have high levels of system mastery over a game - and usually a specific edition of the game - that grumble about new players not doing things "right" and new game designers coming in and changing things. While most RPG grognards are content to quietly play their favored editions with their fellow compatriots from the old trenches, plus what few new recruits they can find, grognards can be very extreme partisans in edition wars because of their attachment to one point in time of a game's history as their "when it was best" period.