Dark Thaumaturgy and Molochim Baali

[Anarahath]

The Baali (Order of Moloch) revised their Road and begun practicing DurAnKi, a form of Blood Magic.

Dark Thaumaturgy is Blood Magic too (albeit taught by Demons) and by browsing the Baali history, the Infernalism rules and the combination of two, I understand that Baali (Molochim) do not shy away from invoking/summoning demons to siphon/steal their powers so as to promote their agenta.

To summon a Demon though, one must know Dark Thaumaturgy (yes there is an Invocation merit too, but summoning a demon with such a parlor trick is probably suicidal).

They are Demonologists: they do not sell their souls but they make deals with creatues from the Outer Darkness.
The very Annazir (who was Moloch' s child but there is no reference of him belonging to the Order of Moloch) was an accomplished Infernalist long before his embrace and Moloch did embrace him nevertheless. Perhaps a mistake (or not). On the other hand, the head of the Order, Sahar-Hannibaal, wields Thamaturgy (DurAnKi) - a more safer approach to Blood Magic.
DurAnKi is an ancient form of Blood Magic where the caster "reminds" the Spirits (demons, leleks, djinns) of their ancient pacts and appease them with his blood ofc and his rituals.


Still. The questions remain:

Would a Molcohim Baali learn Dark Thaumaturgy to "fight fire with fire"?
And if yes, do they 'sell' their soul to do so or are they -somehow- able to claim the Power without consequences (apart of the ones in the DT descritpion)?
Is there a way to summon a Demon (to "steal" its power) without resorting to Dark Thaumaturgy (a loop!)?

Thanks in advance for your replies!

[MyWifeIsScary]

At the least, Humans don't need thaumaturgy to summon demons. You can use them. (I don't think you need to use thaumaturgy, and summoning Demons should be like using Sabbat Rites; no actual magic should be required on your part and it's something more from the demon's end that summoning rites work)

Fluff, but somewhere there was a thaumaturge opinion that everything could be learnt without demons, and that infernal pacts were just a shortcut. Ergo, learning "Fires of the Inferno" with Thaumaturgy and it's relatives should be entirely possible (and there are mechanics for adopting out-of-school magics into your school)

Demonologists I believe essentially get Dominate over the demon when they learn enough of the demon's name. They can bind the demon to do their bidding and presumably force them to supply them with the powers of Dark Thuamaturgy. Actually having thaumaturgy or powers that can control demons is probably an advantage in getting more of that precious name (and will make things considerably safer)

Baali using DurAnKi.... well... It's fine, but I don't see why they wouldn't have good access to hermetic thaumaturgy or something else with less downsides. The Baali are ancient and have had a long time to gather the goods and make unknowing allies.

[Demigod Beast]

Dark Thaumaturgy just requires you to sell your soul. No training required, no special tutoring, just BAM!, sell your soul and the demons beams dark lore directly into your brain. It’s easy. It’s the lazy route to power.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Dark Thaumaturgy just requires you to sell your soul. No training required, no special tutoring, just BAM!, sell your soul and the demons beams dark lore directly into your brain. It’s easy. It’s the lazy route to power.

Probably the most annoying part of this statement is that according to some books, this is true. What one might interpret as statement from an unreliable narrator can soon become law given enough authors. Baali and infernalists are particularly victim to this because people get their personal beliefs mixed in when it comes to literally making deals with devils. Ergo you get some really asinine rulings in official books like -using Diamonion when not on the path of evil revolations causes immediate degeneration- in IIRC the otherwise splendid Rites of The Blood. (yes, it's an arbitration that doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons, but the simplest would be that Evil Revelations is not the only Baali path.)

In some books, DT is a -you'll get this after you've sold your soul- only deal, which I find more than a bit farfetched, while in others DT and infernal investments you can get for petty evil acts like slander or kicking puppies. Personally, I'd just ask for a reasonable link to a demon and then XP. For extra flavour, the demon's a full fledged character with an interesting social dynamic with it's business partner and the demon can withhold the ability to use DT if they're given enough freedom and are unsatisfied.