Renegade publishes VAMPIRE 5E PLAYERS GUIDE

[Ragged Robin]

It could be both. Paradox's decisions might be aligned with justins outlook. It's a nice idea that Paradox is cracking a wip on his back as he guts settings or oblivious suits not paying attention to justin trying to make cofd 3.0 but the truth is probably more complex

[Asmodai]

From everything we've seen, both Ericsson and Justin had free reign as it doesn't seem to me like Paradox understands RPG's very well. They did have probably strategic goals, but in general they let them do what they wanted until it blew up in their face or they left.

[Ragged Robin]

From everything we've seen, both Ericsson and Justin had free reign as it doesn't seem to me like Paradox understands RPG's very well. They did have probably strategic goals, but in general they let them do what they wanted until it blew up in their face or they left.

I do lean towards that interpretation, v5's attitude to combat vs blood hunt shows a massive disconnect between the two groups outlook. But it is plausable that Paradox are well aware of justins actions but percieve it as beneficial to their objections. Weither this is a massive error would be another issue.

[Asmodai]

I don't think Justin was removed or missed some goal of Paradox. They seemed pretty aligned with him and happ with him as a spokeperson. He just got a better job offer and took it.

[Professor Phobos]

I agree, it's definitely compatible goals - both he and Paradox wanted something accessible to new players and streamlined from the build-up of contingent material you get from multiple editions and dozens of supplements over the years. Very much a cut-down version of Vampire. Legacy edition fanbase was not the core target audience.

[elmerg]

I don't think Justin was removed or missed some goal of Paradox. They seemed pretty aligned with him and happ with him as a spokeperson. He just got a better job offer and took it.

He left because he couldn't/wouldn't move his family to Sweden, from what was said elsewhere. He was working as just a contractor for a while before he left.

[Asmodai]

He left because he couldn't/wouldn't move his family to Sweden, from what was said elsewhere. He was working as just a contractor for a while before he left.

Why would he have to move to Sweden? Renegade is mostly American, Paradox is an international corporation and he can coordinate freelancers and contractors from anywhere in the world. Do you have a citation for that?

[littlewitchmaus]

Does anyone here know anyone that uses Catiffs and thin-bloods at all in there games? We just reference them sometimes in our game and not much else is done with them and we prefer to use the clans the most.

the game i've been running for over a year has been entirely thinbloods.

[Ragged Robin]

the game i've been running for over a year has been entirely thinbloods.

That could work since it avoids the awkward dynamics. I'd be tempted to implement a seperate powers line in outside of poor man's thaumaturgy in such a game. On reflection I'd give them the v5 disciplines and have the vampires swinging v20 tier powers around.

[Muad'Dib]

From everything we've seen, both Ericsson and Justin had free reign as it doesn't seem to me like Paradox understands RPG's very well. They did have probably strategic goals, but in general they let them do what they wanted until it blew up in their face or they left.

Role-playing computer games in general do tend to need the most planning and a careful approach during development, implementation, and after release also as well in regard to expansion packs, patches, DLCs, and updates.
All the varied and different gameplay mechanics and systems have to interact for a positive, reasonable, nice, and complex experience, trials, ordeals, and adventure. The various needed and noteworthy systems are numerous: the character creation, protagonist development, choices and decisions during the story, consistency of themes and narration, resolutions at finale, philosophy and morality, balance and fairness both in combat and during other interactions (be it trade, crafting, or diplomacy), travelling and as well upkeep mechanics and choices.

Which might be why some cRPG games were put on hold, delayed, or received updates and expansion packs relatively late. I certainly hope that Vampire: the Masquerade Bloodlines 2 will be released, upgraded, and updated without troublesome situations and problematic issues.

[Knightingale]

From everything we've seen, both Ericsson and Justin had free reign as it doesn't seem to me like Paradox understands RPG's very well. They did have probably strategic goals, but in general they let them do what they wanted until it blew up in their face or they left.

I agree with that. Especially because of how Justin Achilli's approach to W5 ignored the idea of a trans-media-approach. After all, JA deciding to have a W5 that abandons 90% of the old canon and outright saying that W5 wouldn't be a "continuationaion" of old editions means that he actively chose to render already recently released games like Earthblood and Heartsong to be non-canon. How's that for trans-media-sympathy...? Justin Achilli chose to abandon the idea of WOD5E as a trans-media-property because he wanted WOD5E to be totally separate from the old canon. At least, that's what he did with W5... but of course he's already gone (even before W5 got released).

[Asmodai]

I agree with that. Especially because of how Justin Achilli's approach to W5 ignored the idea of a trans-media-approach. After all, JA deciding to have a W5 that abandons 90% of the old canon and outright saying that W5 wouldn't be a "continuationaion" of old editions means that he actively chose to render already recently released games like Earthblood and Heartsong to be non-canon. How's that for trans-media-sympathy...? Justin Achilli chose to abandon the idea of WOD5E as a trans-media-property because he wanted WOD5E to be totally separate from the old canon. At least, that's what he did with W5... but of course he's already gone (even before W5 got released).

Honestly I'm pretty sure he ran that up the totem pole. That's a big decision, and one that's related to the percieved baggage of Werewolf. Remember that the conversations and memes about Werewolf are worse than the actual books, and those memes and tweetstorms are easier to handle if you make a clean break and just remove anything that could offend anyone.

[Knightingale]

Honestly I'm pretty sure he ran that up the totem pole. That's a big decision, and one that's related to the percieved baggage of Werewolf. Remember that the conversations and memes about Werewolf are worse than the actual books, and those memes and tweetstorms are easier to handle if you make a clean break and just remove anything that could offend anyone.

Certainly. For JA, abandoning the old lore was the "big revelation" in developing W5. And maybe Paradox felt that this would also be a great approach to avoid anything like the V5 scandal.

So, the two perspectives aligned in what W5 should be like.

But it should be made clear that JA was the one with the idea of abandoning the old canon. He wasn't the first person to work on W5.

[Shakanaka]

I agree, it's definitely compatible goals - both he and Paradox wanted something accessible to new players and streamlined from the build-up of contingent material you get from multiple editions and dozens of supplements over the years. Very much a cut-down version of Vampire. Legacy edition fanbase was not the core target audience.

Y'know, I just find how Paradox handles this IP, compared to how they handle their grand strategy IP games, to be really funny.

So, Paradox owns the IP for oWoD right? That means all the sale revenue they might get from old guidebooks, lorebooks, old material in general etc. from throughout the years of White Wolf will go to them, right? By making the new editions have no continuity with the "legacy" material, it will just make new people interested in getting generally immersed in the lore of the franchise.. not get the old material. Now it's all obsolete and there is no point.

It could be an argument for "accessibility" to bring new people into the franchise (the real success of that is yet to truly be determined.. let's just wait and see how W5 pans out), but Paradox as a company isn't one for a tradition of "accessibility" for getting new people into their franchises.

Their main strategy as of late (for awhile, actually) is to just make barebone games, then pump them full of DLCs that significantly raises the barrier-of-entry for potentially new players to get an actual quality product. Already established players for their games keep getting the DLCs, because they've already sunk so much money into the product and don't want the feeling of "missing out" on some new key mechanic locked behind DLC.

I somewhat get why they do what do, because the specific "Non-Turned-Based Real-Time Grand Strategy Map Games" that focuses on alternate history... is a specific and very niche genre. The general market of that, compared to the more normative genres out in the market, have an exceeding difference in size to one another.

They're trying to mitigate the difference by making their games more casual as of late, but no matter what they'll do (and I don't Paradox will ever understand this), the type games they make will be still niche and it WILL inevitably appeal to compact group of people. It's the reason why Victoria 3 still has mixed reviews months later after its release, because Paradox thinks it can transition to a more casual audience while ignoring the "old" audience (sound familiar?).

This all rings-around back to oWoD. Tabletop, especially in the modern era, appeals to an even SMALLER set of people compared to video games. Even DnD, the king of Tabletop games has only a moderately-large playerbase. It just has high profitability because DnD players on average are, somewhat wealthy, or very wealthy hobbyists. WotC didn't realize that when they alienated their audience. And look what happened with them?

oWoD isn't even near the same league as DnD. Paradox can't keep alienating the so-called "legacy fanbase" of oWoD.

[Bluecho]

Another reason it's not a hot idea to alienate "legacy fans" is that, in reality, you NEED these fans to grow the audience.

TTRPGs, even at their most rules lite, are complicated games, with necessary knowledge on how to run them effectively that just isn't conveyed in the books themselves. Few people wholly learn D&D, for example, from cracking open the rulebooks and reading them cover to cover. It's both a lot to take in and leaves a great deal out.

Rather, TTRPGs are as much a folk tradition as products sold by a publisher. Folk traditions that are passed down by experienced players/GMs. These "old fans" are responsible for on-boarding new people and initiating them into the folk tradition. Whether that's an older relative/friend taking the kids aside to play, or content creators putting out videos or podcasts giving lessons and telling "war stories".

I would never have started DMing D&D if not for the videos of Matt Colville, for example. And this very forum is a repository of weird and specific knowledge about the World of Darkness that is invaluable for new fans. The "grognards" are hardly infallible and sometimes hew to stagnant play patterns, sure. But there's also deep wells of wisdom to be drawn from. The hand of an "old fan" can sometimes be the difference between a new person being kind of interested in playing, and an actual new player.

As such, to openly and directly reject established fans is a risky proposition. Grumbling about change aside, old fans generally want their franchise to succeed. If you get them on board, they will proselytize new editions on your behalf. Smoothing over transitions and getting people in the door through word of mouth and institutional knowledge.

Whereas alienating old fans has the effect of cutting yourself off from that kind of support network. You have to work all the harder to get new people in, and the rulebook must stand all the more on its own. So if the books you're putting out are weak or offer very little, no one is around to pick up the slack and make it work despite itself.

(All this not touching on if old fans actively hate the new edition, they'll bitterly poison the well against it at every opportunity. Telling new people how much it sucks, and how the old material was so much better. Whether this is "fair" is immaterial; if you alienate the Old Guard, you can't then complain when they turn against you. YOU were the one so confident you could make it without them.)

Plus, a lot of what people like about an old franchise - what attracts people to it - is often all that "Old Lore". Throwing it out in the interests of making it "more approachable" can instead nullify one of an established franchise's biggest strengths. It's why DC Comics brought the pre-Flashpoint continuity back after five years of the New 52. And why Games Workshop is reviving their old Warhammer Fantasy setting (the "Old World") after years of Age of Sigmar. While Old Lore can be daunting, if you just throw it in newbies' faces, it can be a asset too. Sometimes, it's the only part of an old franchise that really appeals to new people.