Kuei Jin: The Hungry Ghost

[Studiokohvi]

Hello all, Im the writer of the V5 Kuei Jin: The Hungry Ghost.

Overall there has been many good responses to the work. Ultimately this post is for any of you out there who downloaded the pdf and me wanting to know your thoughts, opinions and questions if there is any!

For those that don’t know it exists, its a V5 expansion to playing the Kuei Jin and it is Pay what you Want!

https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/426440/Kuei-Jin-The-Hungry-Ghosts?affiliate_id=3794988

[Father Enoch]

How long did the project take?

Did you work on this alone or with a team?

Did you tell anyone about it while you were working on it?

[Studiokohvi]

1) The project took about a year and a several months of work.

2) With a team.

3) Ive told some friends and family members but in terms of online presence, there was none.

[Father Enoch]

Did you ever get any pushback? Did anyone ask why you wanted to do this or say if they thought it was a bad idea?

[Studiokohvi]

Hmmm 🤔 There wasn’t any pushback as most people who knew about the Kuei Jin understood there were portrayal problems with the books itself.

My friends did ask why I wanted to do this. My answer to them and yourself is the same. KotE mechanically and core ideas have a lot of merit. I don't appreciate that all the vampires in the world essentially started around cainites especially the geographic distance each one had to travel to most of Asia with which V5 is dancing around the issue. However, I understand Paradox’s hesitancy with it but the fact that places such as Singapore still run the original kuei jin mechanics (lore wise they just cut out bits that is just excessive) shows that there is a lot of love for these creatures and imv should not be abandoned.

[Asmodai]

I really think you made a great effort at this, and the book looks amazingly professional. Character sheet is so well made I want to play with it.
The artist was especially well chosen and evokes the strong inks of the original.
Really, great work.

I appreciate the effort to make it more neutral, but I would have loved a take that's more personalized towards local cultures where the Hungry Ghosts appear.

Did you look into any other KotE revival projects while doing this?
What motivated you to work this into V5?
What made you settle on the terms that you did and the disciplines that you did?
Are you concerned that any formal attempt at Wraith 5 may trash a lot of the work you did here?
What made you simplify the travel to the spirit worlds?
How do you see the Hengeyokai interacting with these Hungry Ghosts? I've noticed you only mentioned "Lupines"
How do you see the Kindred interacting with the Hungry Ghosts? How was the history of the world affected by this version?

[Studiokohvi]

Thank you very much for you kind comments! My close friends and I poured a bit of ourselves into this work and we all really appreciate how well received it looks visually. When I saw his work on layout and designs, I was worried that the writing wouldn’t be up to par!

The artist is a kind and brilliant illustrator who has his pedigree in comics. He is a fan of the Kuei Jin and it shows!

In terms of making it more localised, when we all had some time to rest, I plan to have an expansion such as more paths and schools including my thoughts on how the courts have transitioned in v5. Also likely a template to have a how to create your own courts 😅

1. Whilst doing the work, I didn’t. However I found after completing the writing that Hsienfan is doing essentially a K20 anniversary edition using V20 ruleset. They do great work in which I can recommend.
2. V5 is how I got into Vampires and WoD in general. In that sense Im more attuned to it thematically and mechanically. As a result, I just wanted to play a kuei jin using V5 rules 😅
3. Translation can be difficult but the main reason why I went for more neutral terms is in KotE, it heavily implies to me that other KJ uses the same terms such as mandarin, Xue or otherwise. Now that probably isint in the case in universe (hopefully not) but subtly to me anyway, it makes it seem as if Asia is one big homogenous culture that uses the exact same terms. My aim is that its neutral and personable enough that everywhere in the world, they can translate it to something they can understand. Hence the shift of terms from KJ to Hungry Ghost, my Brazilian friends could easily translate that to ‘Fantasmas Faminto’ and from my understanding, everywhere in the world have their names for that. In terms of Disciplines, its based on both the Indo-European ideas of the elements and the Five phases which Chinese culture have influenced around their neighbours to be adopted. It stands to me that the Indian or European HG wont understand elements based around the five phases (unless educated into it) so I went to expand it out to include all of it.
4. To be honest, no. V5 Cult of the Blood Gods is an excellent expansion and imv, seems to head a good direction on what Wraith should be like. Thinking about it now, that doesn’t mean that the Wraith 5 team will take that into account but I hope it does. Hopefully they will keep wraith as it is and not similar to Geist. However, if it does in a completely different direction, then ultimately may think on updating the document to suit.
5. Both in keeping the philosophy of V5 which is to be more rules light and thematically where the HG are now spiritually more powerful in that sense. The original document was far more crunchy but when reading through, it may fit V20 but didn’t seem to fit V5. Also a personal gripe of mine is that I had to reread how to travel between spirit realms so many times (including reading werewolf 20 to understand the gist) that I just felt that as a player myself, I wouldnt want to go through it.
6. Since W5 is not related to the old Werewolves, I dont quite know now how the beast courts will function. However, old lore wise, the Hengeyokai are far more advanced in the art of peace and war between themselves and the HG. They both cover different niches, both spirit travel and there isint a sense of straight up antagonism imv.
7. Neonates and freshly embraced are gonna be confused. Probably thinking some obscure clan. The older generations who encountered the HG before their mass disappearance are going to have a sense of whiplash. The camarilla princes are likely to strike a deals with them again. The Barons most likely are divided on these issues and the Sabbat pack priests are going to be either friendly or antagonistic depending on their chosen Path. The old lore that KoTe had accrued hasn’t changed or just been tweaked imv. Majority of it is kept intact. However, post 2004 is all the new lore is in how all the Courts have changed or collapsed due to huge population decline but individually, those that are left have been empowered.

[MrNatas]

However I found after completing the writing that Hsienfan is doing essentially a K20 anniversary edition using V20 ruleset. They do great work in which I can recommend.

Do you happen to have a link to that handy? I'd like to take a look because I was planning to do something simular in my own game and if I can save on work that would be great!

[Studiokohvi]

Here is Hsienfan forum for basically their interpretation.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/rehabilitating-kindred-of-the-east.867814/

Hsienfan Storyteller Vault stuff

https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/341889/Analects-of-the-Damned

[mark]

Here is Hsienfan forum for basically their interpretation.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/rehabilitating-kindred-of-the-east.867814/

Hsienfan Storyteller Vault stuff

https://www.storytellersvault.com/pr...-of-the-Damned

I never quite understood what is supposed to be wrong with the original Kote . I don't have a degree in east asian history so i'd really like to know

[Studiokohvi]

Hmm, you don’t particularly need a degree in east asian history to get a feel on why KoTE felt wrong. If anything, to have a basic understanding on why KotE feels incorrect is actually more a focus on the era of western imperialism, american pov of WW2 and the rise of popularity of martial arts films + anime in the west. The reason I say that is because when you’re reading KotE and looking at the art, that feels as if thats what you’re experiencing.


TLDR

-China is not the whole of Asia. Its part of Asia. Way its written is Asia is Chinese.

-Japanese are not Chinese.

-Some art used could be used as western WW2 propaganda

-Martial arts is not a definitive defining feature of Asia

-Anime + Manga isn’t always the most accurate bar of depiction.

Form the onset, KotE focuses on the middle kingdom which is basically china. But then the Kuei Jin in the original book also says the keui jin aren’t just chinese but also expands to places like India, Myanmar, Malaysia and Philippines as an example. By the depiction and writing, it makes it seem that all of the above places are Chinese which is obviously not true. Another thing is whilst talking about the middle kingdom, also uses a lot of Japanese terms mixed in.


The book itself basically merges Japanese and Chinese culture together. From a outsiders pov, I can understand the similarities as Japan is a cultural heir and a form of a capsule for Tang dynasty China especially when the Taika reforms around 645 Ad were introduced. Chinese culture and ruling system from that era was adopted and adapted to fit Japan. As a tangent, chinese culture changed significantly depending on the dynasty that controlled China so when there is exchanges between Japan and China in the ancient past, China viewed Japan simply as old fashioned when Tang dynasty was destroyed and a new dynasty was established. If you look up the art styles, clothes and other cultural stuff on the internet alone, you can see where the major similarities started. However, Japanese culture is unique as there has been so much adaption over 1300+ years that its severely unfair to say they are a copy. A modern example is as if saying American culture is the exact same as British culture. There are many overt similarities but its unfair to say they are the same.


A lot of the art in the original KotE basically was Yellow peril at its finest. This was particularly common in how chinese + Japanese were depicted by western countries during the end of imperialism and was majorly revived in during WW2. Its an obvious caricature of East Asian but considering how much historical hurt that it has caused to Asian expats, this one is quite a sore spot.





A major thing when playing KotE is as well a focus on martial arts. Now most of the world have their own traditions of martial arts (western boxing is a martial art imv) so why is this particularly heightened in KotE as a own separate skill? The obvious influence when reading through is clearly Hong Kong martial art films which the writers must have enjoyed. However, there is already a brawl skill there. Martial arts is a form of that or melee if you use hand weapons.


Anime + Manga can be an insight into the culture itself but it depends on what type from the 80s + 90s. Imagine a person only basing their entire views of peoples culture just on action comic books from the 90s and then expecting that to be it.

[Asmodai]

A major thing when playing KotE is as well a focus on martial arts. Now most of the world have their own traditions of martial arts (western boxing is a martial art imv) so why is this particularly heightened in KotE as a own separate skill? The obvious influence when reading through is clearly Hong Kong martial art films which the writers must have enjoyed. However, there is already a brawl skill there. Martial arts is a form of that or melee if you use hand weapons.

Everything else you said is correct, however the martial arts subsystem is neither a major feature of KotE (it takes up less than 1% if the page count in the core and is not elaborated in the supplements) nor is it kote specific - it's a truncated relic of two separate white wolf books - Street Fighter and WoD: Combat that tried to make the combat crunchier and more flavourful with mixed success to say the least. Mage has the same subsystems with Do since the beginning and keeps it in M20.

In general KotE gets better with the supplements as they create a distinction between courts on local, cultural and religious differences, and that the core was mostly the Quincux perspective. Sadly, for many their exploration ends with the cringe of whitey must die and the utterly unnecesarry terminology salad.

[Father Enoch]

I never quite understood what is supposed to be wrong with the original Kote . I don't have a degree in east asian history so i'd really like to know

This is a podcast about the original KotE, hosted by three Canadians (I think they're all Canadians) of various Asian ancestries. It is just over two hours, and I can tell you that about an hour in, so halfway through, they made it to page seven. Not a hundred pages in, not fifty pages, SEVEN pages.

https://youtu.be/nKic0LVGfC4

I knew when I first got the book it was at least a little bit problematic, with the way they talk about how "the West had never penetrated into the Orient," (because well, they did, there were a few wars that resulted), and the way the Kuei-Jin's arrival into the West was always portrayed as "an invasion" rather than "a diaspora." But even I didn't expect the first seven pages to take a whole hour. That alone should give you a vague idea of what might be wrong.

I'm not trying to rag on KotE, I have the original handbook, a pdf of one Dharma and a physical copy of another. But old White Wolf was like an angry bull in a porcelain shop, and half of what I hear and read about V5 seems to be redressing or retconning insensitive things written in previous editions (the other half seems to be almost complaints about the retconning and redressing).

[Lioness]

In addition to what's been said already it's also a two-sided attack because there's also VtM fans who disliked the Kindred of the East getting retconned into a different species of vampire rather than Cainites who inhabit a different culture (I've had a peripheral interest in the Kuei-Jin due to the Exalted connection).

[Studiokohvi]

Everything else you said is correct, however the martial arts subsystem is neither a major feature of KotE (it takes up less than 1% if the page count in the core and is not elaborated in the supplements) nor is it kote specific - it's a truncated relic of two separate white wolf books - Street Fighter and WoD: Combat that tried to make the combat crunchier and more flavourful with mixed success to say the least. Mage has the same subsystems with Do since the beginning and keeps it in M20.

In general KotE gets better with the supplements as they create a distinction between courts on local, cultural and religious differences, and that the core was mostly the Quincux perspective. Sadly, for many their exploration ends with the cringe of whitey must die and the utterly unnecesarry terminology salad.

Ah thats my bad then. Whilst Im intrigued by the lore pf mage, I have yet to play M20. Consider this my ignorance on the matter

I agree on that the expansions are much better and imv Blood and Silk was their best one though most dark ages work were awesome most of the time anyway.