The antedilluvians

[Psicose]

Just a topic on how to use antediluvians in chronicles, as far as I know there some people who even ignore them and have some concepts about them that I even find a little complicated to use. So here are some ideas I had:

1. Ennoia, antediluvian of the Gangrel, awakens with three of her children. They operate almost like a pack of wolves and see everything from the perspective of one, that is, if they have the strength to take territory they have every right to do so. A peculiarity of my version of Ennoia is that her blood is so concentrated with her curse that every animal that feeds on her blood becomes some kind of chimera, and anyone she embraces already awakens to non-life with several characteristic of animals and if you don't have a strong enough conviction his mind is so broken that he behaves like an animal and can even be controlled by animalism.

2. Malkav, as in the original I thought he would be "alive" within the Web of madness, but unlike controlling all Malkavians as in the original he would only take over the bodies of some of the lower generation and in this case he would not be limited to just the malkavian clan, any kindred that has diablerized a Malkavian is susceptible to be possesed. The explanation for this is that Malkav's mind is very deranged, I've even read the term broken, as a result he created several personalities, each one assuming a different body and being different not only in behavior, but in the way his madness manifests in other people. In this case, he has no clear objective, he is just free in the world and doing what he wants without worrying about the consequences, very simple, but in his case it works.

3. The Tzimisce antediluvian, I don't even know if he or she has a registered name, in which case he would have faced other antediluvians or members of his own clan, fourth or fifth generation, and consequently he would have faked his own death, but the truth is that he he made use of Vicissitude to separate his body into smaller parts, as a result of which each of these parts went into tupor and when awakened, he turned into a unique creature, with the consciousness of the level of an animal.

4. In modern times Haqim awakens, but as his body was destroyed he manifests himself in the body of the kindred that diablerized him, however as this kindred has already been destroyed he was passed on by the blood of his children and unfortunately he manifested himself in the body of the 14th generation being that this was the last of the bloodline, so now he is in disguise and diablerizing kindreds in order to restore his strength, in fact he avoids diablerizing the Lasombra, Tzimice and Malkavian clans.

I also have more ideias, but I guess theses are enough for now.

[Thoth]

1. Ennoia, antediluvian of the Gangrel, awakens with three of her children. They operate almost like a pack of wolves and see everything from the perspective of one, that is, if they have the strength to take territory they have every right to do so. A peculiarity of my version of Ennoia is that her blood is so concentrated with her curse that every animal that feeds on her blood becomes some kind of chimera, and anyone she embraces already awakens to non-life with several characteristic of animals and if you don't have a strong enough conviction his mind is so broken that he behaves like an animal and can even be controlled by animalism.

Mutagenic vitae is more of a Nosferatu thing than a Gangrel thing, with their spawning pools and what not.

Antes are all to often used as deus ex machina, rather than being full fledged characters in their own right. These are beings that have existed long enough to see most of mortal life as a tv rerun where the writing is repetitive and predictable at best.

Since they are full fledged characters, then there is a reason to why they are doing things. Rather than just the unstoppable force that is this weeks BBEG. For context of what I am talking about, any vampire who is about two or three centuries old would have been in a position to own two sides of a market battle, like Pepsi vs. Coke or Apple vs. Microsoft and we as mortals would never know this was the case and we would argue and fight with each other over the virtues of which side we like most.

An Antedeluvian is old enough and powerful enough to hold that position in vampire society. Meaning that the vampires who own coke & pepsi and make the mortals fight over it, are themselves being likewise manipulated by the Antedeluvians without their perception of it.

It really is a matter of perspective, why would an Antedeluvian try to take territory when, by virtue of their power, the entire world is their territory and has been for millennia? The younglings are just being allowed to squabble over who is temporary king of the sandbox while the elder who owns the yard watches them play.

If the behavior and reasons are equally viable for a 5th or 6th generation elder, then I suggest going back to the drawing board and reframing the scale of the behavior to be more inline with a creature of that age and power.

[Psicose]

An Antedeluvian is old enough and powerful enough to hold that position in vampire society. Meaning that the vampires who own coke & pepsi and make the mortals fight over it, are themselves being likewise manipulated by the Antedeluvians without their perception of it.

It really is a matter of perspective, why would an Antedeluvian try to take territory when, by virtue of their power, the entire world is their territory and has been for millennia? The younglings are just being allowed to squabble over who is temporary king of the sandbox while the elder who owns the yard watches them play.

Well, my idea is that this way she takes cities would be more like a way to prepare for a future confrontation, after all if she awakened other kindred of the same level could too, so she wants to spread influence in the world, where she left being a part of centuries ago, before the confrontation begins, it's clear that the other kindred won't just take it quietly and the chronicle would be them dealing with the situation, not that they can defeat Ennoia, not without help at least, but I think it opens up a range of possibilities, a bit too simple I know.

[Thoth]

How exactly does claiming a city prepare for a future confrontation?

I am genuinely curious because Ennoia doesn't really empire build or play in the Jyhad. Her only competitors would be other antediluvians and for the most part they are all focused in different directions to the point that they don't really interact with each other. So, I am failing to see how the act of claiming a city or territory in general connects to her interests.

This feels like the concept of claiming territory came first, then we are attempting to reverse engineer how and why a 3rd generation would bother, let alone a 3rd generation like Ennoia who doesn't do that sort of thing.

I mean if a 3rd generation vampire wanted to make serious waves in the kindred community, all they have to do is sire some new 4th generation vampires. The established factions would go absolutely crazy as a result. One group would want to eat the neonates, another group would probably try to protect them in an attempt to curry favor with the 3rd generation, while everyone else will be running around in pants wetting terror that an antediluvian is awake, active, and siring.

Then everyone remembers that Augustus Giovanni has been awake and active for centuries, and the world has kept on turning without major issue. Though to be fair Augustus illustrates the 3rd generation scope rather well. He leads the Giovanni clan and ensures that it thrives and maintains power, but his plans are things like the Endless Night ritual. He doesn't play for territory, he is playing for reworking reality itself.

[Psicose]

How exactly does claiming a city prepare for a future confrontation?

I am genuinely curious because Ennoia doesn't really empire build or play in the Jyhad. Her only competitors would be other antediluvians and for the most part they are all focused in different directions to the point that they don't really interact with each other. So, I am failing to see how the act of claiming a city or territory in general connects to her interests.

This feels like the concept of claiming territory came first, then we are attempting to reverse engineer how and why a 3rd generation would bother, let alone a 3rd generation like Ennoia who doesn't do that sort of thing.

I mean if a 3rd generation vampire wanted to make serious waves in the kindred community, all they have to do is sire some new 4th generation vampires. The established factions would go absolutely crazy as a result. One group would want to eat the neonates, another group would probably try to protect them in an attempt to curry favor with the 3rd generation, while everyone else will be running around in pants wetting terror that an antediluvian is awake, active, and siring.

Then everyone remembers that Augustus Giovanni has been awake and active for centuries, and the world has kept on turning without major issue. Though to be fair Augustus illustrates the 3rd generation scope rather well. He leads the Giovanni clan and ensures that it thrives and maintains power, but his plans are things like the Endless Night ritual. He doesn't play for territory, he is playing for reworking reality itself.

Basically a quarrel actually, in the gehenna book it is implied or open to the interpretation that there are deadly rivalries between some of them, Haqin and Set, Augustos and Cappodocian (long story), Absiliard I think hates everyone, in the case of Ennoia I I think she has a falling out with Shaper, I think, I just don't know why, in general Ennoia, in the original there is almost no reaction.

Anyway, the idea I had was that to face the other third gen who would probably try to diablerize her, Ennoia would need a small army and a way to sustain it otherwise she would be at a disadvantage against others who can make it a lot easier. , examples are Tzimice, Absiliard, Cappodocian, perhaps Set could be counted there, and Shaper herself.

[Black Fox]

I actually don't give much consideration to the Antedeluvians as actual characters or drivers of the Jyhad. I already tend to layer multiple machinations in my chronicles, and it is confusing enough for my players. Actually determining what individual Antedeluvians want and how they might drive things is just too much.

However, I do like them as a background element of the setting, and the idea that Gehenna looms over things, but exactly when it may happen is unknown.

The only Antedeluvian I developed was Cappadocious, and that was to accomplish several things. First, he was unusually active quite late (embracing Augustus Giovanni and enacting the Feast of Folly), and second, I wanted an example of how terrifying the Antedeluvians might be when they woke. So those were the two things I needed to explain. So I associated all the times he became active to occur when there was a terrible plague in the world. He awoke and converted to Christianity around the Antonine Plague of the Roman Empire. He awoke and attended the Feast of Folly at the time of the Plague of Justinian. And he awoke again during the Black Death. (I changed things so that he did not actually wake to embrace Augustus, but commanded one of his servants to "cold embrace" Augustus by using his blood when he was in torpor.)

I never say that Cappadocious was actually the cause of any of these plagues. It might simply have been the energy of Oblivion accompanying these plagues to have affected his torpor. But by having that be a consistent pattern, I thought it made the awakening of this Antedeluvian more terrifying, and therefore added to the fears of what would happen when more Antedeluvians wake. It also helped explain why the other clans were content to let the Giovanni try to slaughter the Cappadocians because of the fear that maybe Cappadocious and his clan might have been responsible for the Black Death. (I also kept the early 1e weirdness in the original World of Darkness that somehow the Black Death could infect and destroy some vampires as well, because it was not a mundane disease but a supernatural plague.)

[Elphilm]

I actually don't give much consideration to the Antedeluvians as actual characters or drivers of the Jyhad. I already tend to layer multiple machinations in my chronicles, and it is confusing enough for my players. Actually determining what individual Antedeluvians want and how they might drive things is just too much.

Yeah. Other people might have different experiences, but in nearly 20 years of engaging with the World of Darkness, each time I've set a chronicle in Chicago, my players have not come even close to unveiling the feud between Menele and Helena that is the prime mover behind everything that happens in the area. If even methuselahs remain such shadowy presences that the players can only glimpse them by proxy, what do I need the Antediluvians for? They are only useful for when you want to end the world.

[Lysander]

We never used them in our games and it would be rare to even use a methuselah on the scale of Helen or Montona as we saw them as shadowy figures that were more felt then seen.

[Ragged Robin]

My idea for antiduluvians in general is that their agendas are often abstract and distinct. This can lead them to being antagonists or simply neutral passers by.

My idea for antiduluvians in general is that their agendas are often abstract and distinct. This can lead them to being antagonists or simply neutral passers by.
My 3rd gen line up went something like this.

Lasombra-dead, the assassination was a botched attempt at apotheosis on its behalf, didn't work.

Tzmisce-deadish, vissitude means keeps it coming back but its power is severly reduced following its death by Samuel.

Cappadocious-dead mostly augustus' master plan is a lingering product of its psyche.

Brujah-torpor but using presence 10 to engage in subtle social engineering.

Troile-dead, suicide in face of declining humanity.

Malkav-the network.

Enoia- obsessed with geography. Occasionally causes earthquakes moving the plates to her desires specifications.

Asimbilliard-hunting his own clan and other powerful monsters for the thrill of the hunt as well as misguided penance but it also hunted in turn by the them.

Ravnos-wanted to become demon emperor, didn't pan out.

Haqim, actually still doing his job. Trying to terminate vormas and the unamed.

Set-wants to be ra/apothis.


Saulot- achieved golconda. Trying to minimalise damage children of Caine do.


Ventrue, subtly trying to rule cainites through his clan in 4d chess match with enoch whose barely playing

I also had some simply autarkis

[Chris Wilson]

Malkav: Cult of the Hand

Malkav while fleeing the second city was attacked. His childer found his dissected body, took the five pieces and hid them throughout the midle east. A proffessor and archeologist found one of these hiding spots. Mortals had built a temple within the cave where the left arm of Malkav sat on a dias. When the Archeologist brought it into the sun it began to burn. Quick action saved the hand but the rest of the limb fell to ash.

Currently the Proffessor is doing a speaking tour to brag about his many discoveries. The hand is one of his exhibits. A number of individuals who see the hand are overcome with awe and ferverently obsess over the hand. They want a piece of it, To grant it worship. So they take a finger and create their own cult to the hand. Once the finger or squib as they call it grows into a proper hand from their freely given blood the now growing cult cut off the blood flow. Of course this leaves the hand hungry with its beast close to the surface.

The hand is alive. The hand needs blood to heal and to satisfy its hunger. Now it has many opportunities to hunt. At night it animates and begins the hunt for blood. Being a part of a methuselah it requires the death of its victims to truely satisfy its hunger. Strangulation is its prefered and really only means of attack. The hand uses the blood to spread its cult through dementation and dominate as well as to continue reconstituting its body. When it feeds upon a vampire the hand spends the vitae to reconstitute its limb. With sufficient deaths Malkav will rise again.

Complication: Cult of the Foot. A rival to the aforementioned Professor has a competing tour. His own discovery, a foot draws its own attention. Both the hand and the professor are furious. The hand and its cult will not tolerate a rival for supremacy.

The Cult: The cult has no real purpose other than to venerate the hand or one of its many offshoots. Each offshoot is organized as their fervoured miinds find most appealing if it holds any organization at all. There is no dogma of salvation nor of doom. To outsiders the adoration the cultists and the appeal of the cult seems more than a little crazy. Sometimes the individual cults are allies, other times rivals. Arguements arise over which hand is the true hand.

Plot Hooks:
* A handful of murder: A spat of strange murders in a neighborhood draws the attention of the police. Whispers tell the murders were commited by a disenbodied hand. The neighbourhood is the domain of the PCs or a powerful NPC who does not like the attention within his upscale domain. They task the PCs to get to the bottom of things.
* Cults at War: The cult of the foot and the cult of the hand are at war. Their weapons are the media, civil disobedience, pranks and graffiti. So far few have paid attention to the odd story but as the little war continues and their pranks escalate, more and more attention is being drawn towards it by both mainstream media and youtube influencers. Some of the pranks seem to imply a supernatural prowess.
* Kickstarting a Dream: The sherrif's ghoul has brought to his master's attention a Kicksttarter Campaign. The campaign wishes to raise money for a new temple dedicated to the foot. At the 25 dollar tier donatoers receive a dirty sock. At the 100 dollar tier donaters receive clippings of the foot's toenails and at the 1000 dollar tier the donator gains the opportunity to spend a weekend servicing the foot with worship free of distractions or other worshipers. The Sherrif is incensed and demands the PCs track down any and all who donated to the Kickstarter at the 100 dollar tier, retrieve the toe clippings and put a stop to the campaign. The ST can decide of the Sherrif is a worshiper of the Hand or if the Kickstarter is a scam and the sherrif is instead a worshiper of the foot.
* Drawing forth the Crazy: All malkavians within a domain are drawn to the Cult of the Hand. Every teuday night they gather to offer the hand proper veneration. The Malkavians recent predictions are full of doom and images of hands. The neighbourhood where they worship has an increased number of mental brakdowns and incidents related to mental health issues. The Prince or Baron wants to know what is going on.

Of course, the hand need not be Malkav's but the story of the Coranati and of course Thing from The Adam's Family are its inspiration.

[Koronus]

In our chronic the Stoneman is actually an ante of another one of Caines "children" but because he never revolted against his sire, he has no curse to transfer.
Instead whenever the stoneman appears he is like the humanoid typhon, leaving destruction where he goes but with no lifes harmed unless those went out of their way to proof that they are assholes. In that way he is like the boogieman for tyrannic princes so most of them will not believe it but because of it, many Caitiffs will not be hunted unless they are thinbloods.

[Lysander]

Just a topic on how to use antediluvians in chronicles, as far as I know there some people who even ignore them and have some concepts about them that I even find a little complicated to use. So here are some ideas I had:

1. Ennoia, antediluvian of the Gangrel, awakens with three of her children. They operate almost like a pack of wolves and see everything from the perspective of one, that is, if they have the strength to take territory they have every right to do so. A peculiarity of my version of Ennoia is that her blood is so concentrated with her curse that every animal that feeds on her blood becomes some kind of chimera, and anyone she embraces already awakens to non-life with several characteristic of animals and if you don't have a strong enough conviction his mind is so broken that he behaves like an animal and can even be controlled by animalism.

2. Malkav, as in the original I thought he would be "alive" within the Web of madness, but unlike controlling all Malkavians as in the original he would only take over the bodies of some of the lower generation and in this case he would not be limited to just the malkavian clan, any kindred that has diablerized a Malkavian is susceptible to be possesed. The explanation for this is that Malkav's mind is very deranged, I've even read the term broken, as a result he created several personalities, each one assuming a different body and being different not only in behavior, but in the way his madness manifests in other people. In this case, he has no clear objective, he is just free in the world and doing what he wants without worrying about the consequences, very simple, but in his case it works.

3. The Tzimisce antediluvian, I don't even know if he or she has a registered name, in which case he would have faced other antediluvians or members of his own clan, fourth or fifth generation, and consequently he would have faked his own death, but the truth is that he he made use of Vicissitude to separate his body into smaller parts, as a result of which each of these parts went into tupor and when awakened, he turned into a unique creature, with the consciousness of the level of an animal.

4. In modern times Haqim awakens, but as his body was destroyed he manifests himself in the body of the kindred that diablerized him, however as this kindred has already been destroyed he was passed on by the blood of his children and unfortunately he manifested himself in the body of the 14th generation being that this was the last of the bloodline, so now he is in disguise and diablerizing kindreds in order to restore his strength, in fact he avoids diablerizing the Lasombra, Tzimice and Malkavian clans.

I also have more ideias, but I guess theses are enough for now.

Most members of the original 3rd generation have taken exquisite care in concealing there origins including there original names. IE Cappodicous real name is unknown and just uses his title as an explanation of where he came from.

[Psicose]

Most members of the original 3rd generation have taken exquisite care in concealing there origins including there original names. IE Cappodicous real name is unknown and just uses his title as an explanation of where he came from.

What does this have to do with what I said?

[Lysander]

You asked if Tziscme had a proper name and I mentioned that we don’t know any of there true origins.

[Psicose]

You asked if Tziscme had a proper name and I mentioned that we don’t know any of there true origins.

Ah! I remembered, sorry.