Should similar, common disciplines be combined?

[Hello]

Disciplines such as animalism and dominate being combined to create a singular discipline that allows mind control of both people and animals would not only be a lot more interesting, but would also make up for some of the shortcomings the disciplines may have. It is no secret that at times, lower levels of a discipline tend to be much more useful than at higher levels, this problem could effectively be fixed by combining the best of two disciplines. Other than the need to make a few changes to the disciplines to properly synchronize them, it doesn't seem like there would be consequences if such a thing were to happen.

What do you think?

[MyWifeIsScary]

It would hack too much at the flavours of each clan. Ventrue being animal kings? No thank you. Also like... what disciplines are similar to you? Each common discipline seems pretty well defined to me.

[Banu_Saulot]

I understand the idea. Like, yeah Dominate and Animalism control minds and spirits, Potence and Fortitude make your body stronger, etc.
But, I think the powers are more separated by theme rather than functionality. That is why sometimes Animalism has powers similar to Auspex like feeling people's ferocity, it is supposed to make your feel beast like, instinct-based. I honestly like how it is done, but its certainly possible to synthetize the Disciplines into basics. Even more if you have multiple alternative powers per level (like V5).

[Ragged Robin]

Its sounds rather bland since it effectively removes meaningful distinctions between clans. Oblivions pretty terrible so it doesn't appeal from precedence.

[Baaldam]

Disciplines such as animalism and dominate being combined to create a singular discipline that allows mind control of both people and animals would not only be a lot more interesting, but would also make up for some of the shortcomings the disciplines may have. It is no secret that at times, lower levels of a discipline tend to be much more useful than at higher levels, this problem could effectively be fixed by combining the best of two disciplines. Other than the need to make a few changes to the disciplines to properly synchronize them, it doesn't seem like there would be consequences if such a thing were to happen.

What do you think?

Not Animalism & Dominate per se, but i have certainly tinkered with disciplines by breaking a few like Serpentis and Vicissitude down, subsuming some powers into Protean and turning a few others (flesh-crafting proper, heart-stealing) into rituals within a "loresheet"/background/merit, among other things (lots of signature disciplines "gone" in my table).


If it's your game, it's fine to tweak and homebrew to one's preferences - just remember to ease your players into any changes beforehand, since they may not see eye to eye or agree with your view on disciplines, similarity of mechanics or separation of themes.

They might even catch issues or possiblities that didn't cross your mind, so debating the subject of house rules with the group as a whole is most advisable.

As long as everybody has room to debate, they can adapt, prepare and tinker on their own to their heart's content, then it should be fine.

[Heavy Arms]

"Should" is always a touchy thing because there's no objective criteria to hit here. Trying to reduce the number of Disciplines should or shouldn't happen based on other goals you have that would inform that decision.

Like, if you feel two Disciplines that overlap some are each individually a bit lacking? Combining them is one option. So is looking for ideas on how to make them pop more. You could, say, look at how VtR 2e redid Animalism and Dominate in a fashion where they stand much more strongly on their own for ideas of how to approach them in VtM if you want them to feel more interesting. But VtR does a lot of other different things on top of this. Every Clan in VtR has it's own signature Discipline that helps make each have the unique feel people are talking about. Mucking with Dominate, the VtR Ventrue signature Discipline, is going to cause more thematic issues than looking at condensing the physical boosting Disciplines a bit. VtM relies on how all three in-Clans connect because a bunch of Clans don't have one Discipline to cal their own.

[Leandro16]

NO

It helps clans be different, and it is also a money in the vampire blood economy.

Let´s remember that under normal circunstances you need the blood of someone who has certain discipline as in clan to learn it.

[Psicose]

I think it's better not, using the case of animalism and Dominate as an example, this would do the same things as the common Dominate only affecting animals as well, apart from that different clans may have disciplines in common, but use them differently.

[21C Hermit]

I’ve pondered things like giving Dominate-lite quirks and perks to Tzimisce-brand Animalism, to the extent of treating humans like animals for certain Animalism powers (inspired by Seeming-specific clauses on Contracts in CtL 2e, and Exalt type Modes on Universal Charms in ExEss), but outright merging them… feels a bit too much.

[Heavy Arms]

VtR 2e even manages to give the Ventrue (though VtR Ventrue have a bit of Old Clan Tzimisce going on) Dominate and Animalism as in-Clan Disciplines. Clearly they can coexist.

That said, I still think it really matters what you're trying to do. A lot of the negative responses seem to be assuming that this is just a change with no other changes going on. Concerns about Clan thematic powers isn't that important if you're playing an all Caitiff V20 game and you want to streamline some of the very large number of Disciplines.

[Ragged Robin]

It occurs you might also end up with the same issue as v5 where disciplines become bloated with supplementary, redundant or thematically weird powers

[Muad'Dib]

Disciplines such as animalism and dominate being combined to create a singular discipline that allows mind control of both people and animals would not only be a lot more interesting, but would also make up for some of the shortcomings the disciplines may have. It is no secret that at times, lower levels of a discipline tend to be much more useful than at higher levels, this problem could effectively be fixed by combining the best of two disciplines. Other than the need to make a few changes to the disciplines to properly synchronize them, it doesn't seem like there would be consequences if such a thing were to happen.

What do you think?

In regard to this, I consider that the Disciplines differ and definitely show and represent their themes to an extent that is clearly visible and tangible already at level 1 powers and abilities.
Also as well it is clearly shown in Discipline-related overall and situational bonuses and benefits (like the Celerity dexterity bonus, or the Presence social interactions bonus).

It should be noted that the Level 5, level 6, and more precious and advanced powers do represent and embody the themes, concepts, and ideas of Disciplines (or Invocations, give another possible term) to a very significant extent. As such, I think that at most basic and standard the current availability and arrangement of Disciplines - and also of course the outlining and portrayal of individual abilities and powers - is certainly very interesting and definitely good enough.

[Lysander]

I never felt the need myself.