Ravnos the most powerful antediluvian

[blackshade]

Can we all agree that Ravnos is the most powerful antediluvian and faked his own death? Well maybe not the latter (but possibly). I am willing to accept he was in wight form when he woke up and didn't use his hax illusion powers to try to fool the world but come on, he has to have been the most powerful of them all!

We are talking about someone who basically had access to the reality stone. Anything he thinks about becomes reality. It's the most powerful disclipline that you can have at level 10. You don't need any other discipline. He could think all the other level 10 disciplines in existence if he wanted or create his own disciplines on the fly (reminds of Caine in that department).What could possibly match that?

I am interested to hear genuine arguments about which antediluvian you think is more powerful. But don't give a cop out answer like: they are all as powerful as the storyteller wants lol

Give me hard cold facts that proves the contrary or accept Ravnos as the biggest badass of them all

[AnubisXy]

[Tzimisci] and Gangrel are the two surviving Antediluvians in final storyline in the Gehenna book. It's hard to beat [Tzimisci] simultaneously becoming every living being on the entire planet. Other than Gangrel becoming the planet...

[Sergeant Brother]

In his rage, Ravnos used Chimerstry 10 to turn all of reality into a role playing game, and that is what happened.

Seriously though, I don’t recognize the Week of Nightmares in any chronicles that I run. In my opinion, the Antediluvians don’t die until Gehenna, so if I were forced to use the Week of Nightmares, I would rule that Ravnos faked his death. Antediluvians’ power is so great that it defies comparison.

[Ragged Robin]

Canon says he's dead ergo hes dead. Probably was the most powerful because chim 10 is true magic but no Paradox most powerful isn't infinite. Either Cappadocius ot tzmisce are/were probably 2nd.


Its also more interesting plot wise that some of the 3rd gen are dead.

[Shadeprowler]

We are talking about someone who basically had access to the reality stone. Anything he thinks about becomes reality.

Emperor Joker, The Scarlet Witch, Proteus, The Shaper of Worlds, Mad Jim Jaspers... all reality shapers, and what have in common?
They were all defeated
Chimestry is a delicate discipline
Lv 7. Suspension of Disbelief: Make an illusion seem completely real or what is real seem unbelievable
Lv 8. Fantasy World: Place a target in an illusionary world in their mind
Lv 9. Mayaparisatya: Temporarily make an illusion completely real or alter a person or object that already exists, possibly even erasing them from existence
Lv 9. Truths of the Universe: Make a created illusion permanently real
Lv 10. Reality: Trap a victim in an alternate reality of your creation
These are very powerfull powers indeed, but not instant nor 100% it will work
Strong wills could "resist" it, so I would say it is not on par with the Eldest "immortality" to reform from even a molecule for example, or I doubt it would effect Malkav or Malakai, whos relationship with reality is shaky at best

[Ragged Robin]

Emperor Joker, The Scarlet Witch, Proteus, The Shaper of Worlds, Mad Jim Jaspers... all reality shapers, and what have in common?
They were all defeated
Chimestry is a delicate discipline
Lv 7. Suspension of Disbelief: Make an illusion seem completely real or what is real seem unbelievable
Lv 8. Fantasy World: Place a target in an illusionary world in their mind
Lv 9. Mayaparisatya: Temporarily make an illusion completely real or alter a person or object that already exists, possibly even erasing them from existence
Lv 9. Truths of the Universe: Make a created illusion permanently real
Lv 10. Reality: Trap a victim in an alternate reality of your creation
These are very powerfull powers indeed, but not instant nor 100% it will work
Strong wills could "resist" it, so I would say it is not on par with the Eldest "immortality" to reform from even a molecule for example, or I doubt it would effect Malkav or Malakai, whos relationship with reality is shaky at best

Theirs also the dangers inherant in such a power driving the user mad.

[Lysander]

Emperor Joker, The Scarlet Witch, Proteus, The Shaper of Worlds, Mad Jim Jaspers... all reality shapers, and what have in common?
They were all defeated
Chimestry is a delicate discipline
Lv 7. Suspension of Disbelief: Make an illusion seem completely real or what is real seem unbelievable
Lv 8. Fantasy World: Place a target in an illusionary world in their mind
Lv 9. Mayaparisatya: Temporarily make an illusion completely real or alter a person or object that already exists, possibly even erasing them from existence
Lv 9. Truths of the Universe: Make a created illusion permanently real
Lv 10. Reality: Trap a victim in an alternate reality of your creation
These are very powerfull powers indeed, but not instant nor 100% it will work
Strong wills could "resist" it, so I would say it is not on par with the Eldest "immortality" to reform from even a molecule for example, or I doubt it would effect Malkav or Malakai, whos relationship with reality is shaky at best

Lets not forget the old adage that godlike beings are quite arrogant and underestimate there prey in most stories.

[Chris Wilson]

Though Ravnos was able to call upon illusions I always assumed part of Ravnos behaviour was due to Hunger Frenzy. Lacking vitae the antediluvian was unable to pull off his most potent powers. What were n display were his lesser abilities writ large due to his generation. The question is why was Ravnos still hungry after rampaging through the Indian sub-continent consuming whatever vampire he could get his hands on?

I figure there are 3 options as to why Ravnos could not satisfy his beast's hunger. It could be a. Ravnos required low generation vitae and either there were insufficient Methuselah's present to satisfy him or they hid from his presence; b. Ravnos required the blood of something other than his fellow Cainites such as the blood of the Fae; or C. Ravnos required even more rarified vitae to fill him. such as the vitae of other Antediluvians.

Of course, all of this is speculation.

What other reasons might there be why Ravnos remained in Hunger Frenzy?

[Gurkhal]

Though Ravnos was able to call upon illusions I always assumed part of Ravnos behaviour was due to Hunger Frenzy. Lacking vitae the antediluvian was unable to pull off his most potent powers. What were n display were his lesser abilities writ large due to his generation. The question is why was Ravnos still hungry after rampaging through the Indian sub-continent consuming whatever vampire he could get his hands on?

I figure there are 3 options as to why Ravnos could not satisfy his beast's hunger. It could be a. Ravnos required low generation vitae and either there were insufficient Methuselah's present to satisfy him or they hid from his presence; b. Ravnos required the blood of something other than his fellow Cainites such as the blood of the Fae; or C. Ravnos required even more rarified vitae to fill him. such as the vitae of other Antediluvians.

Of course, all of this is speculation.

What other reasons might there be why Ravnos remained in Hunger Frenzy?

One option would be, if [Ravnos] indeed consumed all vampires he cam across, that he committed so many diableries that he became a Wight?

[Thoth]

On the other hand, I would be more concerned with an Antediluvian with rank 10 Obfuscate. This makes sure that no one knows them, not even their own childer. So no one without rank 10 Auspex could even have a chance to perceive them, let alone remember what they can do.

The ability to destroy a foe is impressive, but power without perception is functionally useless.

[Shadeprowler]

One option would be, if [Ravnos] indeed consumed all vampires he cam across, that he committed so many diableries that he became a Wight?

I'm not sure on that one
To become a Wight your Humanity or Path of Enlightenment needs to be fallen to the rating of 0.
Now an 10K+ years old (I know, I know, but for the sake of the argument, lets pretend all of them at least this old) Antediluvian long ago left its Humanity behind and probably predate any Path or Road - I wouldn't be surprised if they would have their own Path of the Antediluvian to reflect their alien mind
But lets say, even if the Ravnos Antediluvian was on a Path, probably it wasnt the Mayaparisatya (Eastern Path of Paradox) , since its first tenent is "Embracing needlessly or out of personal desire." - and either by divine mandate as Zapatashura either to war with the Gangrel antediluvian as Churka (or the Spider King who battled the Tiger Queen) the Antediluvian wasn't shy to Embrace or encourage it or the "Killing a mortal for sustenance." part where they evoured whole part of India in the battles...
The old Ravnos of India revered their Antediluvian as a living parable of the paradoxical nature of the cosmos: accursed by the gods, yet divine in his origin; a bloodthirsty monster, yet a figure of wisdom and reverence; dead, but still alive. Some devout followers of the Path believe that the destruction of Zapathasura in 1999 allowed him to leave his current incarnation behind, only to be reborn as a god after the turning of the kalachakra for the centuries of dedicated service to the gods in punishing the fallen guardians of Heaven (the Kuei-Jin)
I don't even think Antediluvians are "capable" to become a Wight... but Beckett's Jyhad Diary presendted a nice alternative, the state of Ashur and poked the idea in their time eventually every Antediluvian bacame Ashur, but later got better, or their regular self at least.

Also... Antediluvian not really die
There are hints and stories, like how the Eldest was diablerized by Lugoj - turned out in the Clan Book, it was fake or how the Lasombra Antediluvian was eaten by a flock of rebels, lead by Grationo... yet nobody can recall the exact event, and Grationo never claimed the "throne" (they were totally dominated)
Or how Saulot was eaten by Tremere... that was described, but his survival is a bit centerpoint in several scenarios
Even the Brujah Antediluvan/Ilyes diableire byTroile not that certain; not even the date or explained the fact why the others not punished her (after all, the first diablerie of an antediluvan - back than just an elder - would set up a dangerous precedent if not punished)
Cappadocius was eaten, yet survived as a Wrait and actually even Augustus 3rd gen status is questionable, since the soul escaped, he is looking for the True Vessel and he not embrced since the Diablerie... actually there are no 4th Gen Giovanni around who descended from him
Revised Toreador and Ventrue Clanbooks suggests that Arikel was not the toreador progenitor, and that she was killed by the Nosferatu and Setite Antediluvians, who cut out and ate her heart. Yet she awoke from torpor around 260 BC and advised Prince Alchias of Syracuse.who was a 4th gen, so Arikel was a 3rd Gen who "died"... but got better
Like the Venture Antediluvian, some sources says that Ventrue was destroyed by the Brujah Antediluvian/team of Brujah in the either first or either second city, yet he embraces left and right, till 60 BC when he embraced Antonius and Erik Eigermann/Ueruic and Danava believe themselves to be the guardians of their Antediluvian (pitri, or "father"), whom they call Veddhartha. These Danava claim that the Ventrue are in fact an errant antitribu bloodline of the Danava. Veddhartha was the Sire of Mithras by the way, So...
Zapatashura death was described in deatail, and considered dead, yet even in V5 there are hints (blood of Zapatashura, or what that thing is called) maybe he is not THAT dead
Like how Malkav was tore apart, yet his children consumed his blood to shiled it from the sun, so he survived as the Cobweb/Madnes network... if that trick worked with Malkav, Zapatashura may survived too, since the sun not destroyed his lifeblood.... or it was just a reality alteration
Even the death of the Second Generation is not totally confirmed or decribed, and several books descrbe them survivors, Enoch, Zillah, the First Born, or even Irad or the Crone... survived in one form or a nother
Really the two confirmed kills are the Queen and King of En'esh who Haqim destroyed and became a vampire with their blood, but even that is just an Assamite version
Maybe the Two Lovers death are a certanity... they walked out to the sun.. but thats a Toreador legend

[Prometheas]

Emperor Joker, The Scarlet Witch, Proteus, The Shaper of Worlds, Mad Jim Jaspers... all reality shapers, and what have in common?
They were all defeated

Lets not forget the old adage that godlike beings are quite arrogant and underestimate there prey in most stories.

By author fiat...
Let's not kid ourselves here. None of thegod-entity examples should or would have lost if the author didn't intervene to purposefully engineer the situation to guarantee their loss. It's the "Good Story" problem raising it's ugly head, the author wouldn't have a story if the villain didn't Lose, so the villain Has to Lose.

WOD isn't as story where villains are expected to lose so the heroes can triumph, quite the opposite. WOD is a setting where the heroes are expected to Lose unless they become some similar or Worse than the villain they fight, and only on rare occasions heroes gain any ground in an undeniably virtuous way(specifically to highlight how powerful those rare moments are). Comicbook logic need not apply, it's rarely welcome here.

That's why I personally Hate the DBZ fight they had for Ravnos's death and the fact the authors went out of their way to crush any threads that it was part of any greater scheme. It's so weird and blatantly at odds with the tone of the setting that it like we're in the middle of an intense investigative/crime drama building up to some lovecraftian twist,only to suddenly change the channel to watch an episode of Justice League Unlimited.

[Chris Wilson]

I'm not sure on that one
To become a Wight your Humanity or Path of Enlightenment needs to be fallen to the rating of 0.
Now an 10K+ years old (I know, I know, but for the sake of the argument, lets pretend all of them at least this old) Antediluvian long ago left its Humanity behind and probably predate any Path or Road - I wouldn't be surprised if they would have their own Path of the Antediluvian to reflect their alien mind
But lets say, even if the Ravnos Antediluvian was on a Path, probably it wasnt the Mayaparisatya (Eastern Path of Paradox) , since its first tenent is "Embracing needlessly or out of personal desire." - and either by divine mandate as Zapatashura either to war with the Gangrel antediluvian as Churka (or the Spider King who battled the Tiger Queen) the Antediluvian wasn't shy to Embrace or encourage it or the "Killing a mortal for sustenance." part where they evoured whole part of India in the battles...
The old Ravnos of India revered their Antediluvian as a living parable of the paradoxical nature of the cosmos: accursed by the gods, yet divine in his origin; a bloodthirsty monster, yet a figure of wisdom and reverence; dead, but still alive. Some devout followers of the Path believe that the destruction of Zapathasura in 1999 allowed him to leave his current incarnation behind, only to be reborn as a god after the turning of the kalachakra for the centuries of dedicated service to the gods in punishing the fallen guardians of Heaven (the Kuei-Jin)
I don't even think Antediluvians are "capable" to become a Wight... but Beckett's Jyhad Diary presendted a nice alternative, the state of Ashur and poked the idea in their time eventually every Antediluvian bacame Ashur, but later got better, or their regular self at least.

Also... Antediluvian not really die
There are hints and stories, like how the Eldest was diablerized by Lugoj - turned out in the Clan Book, it was fake or how the Lasombra Antediluvian was eaten by a flock of rebels, lead by Grationo... yet nobody can recall the exact event, and Grationo never claimed the "throne" (they were totally dominated)
Or how Saulot was eaten by Tremere... that was described, but his survival is a bit centerpoint in several scenarios
Even the Brujah Antediluvan/Ilyes diableire byTroile not that certain; not even the date or explained the fact why the others not punished her (after all, the first diablerie of an antediluvan - back than just an elder - would set up a dangerous precedent if not punished)
Cappadocius was eaten, yet survived as a Wrait and actually even Augustus 3rd gen status is questionable, since the soul escaped, he is looking for the True Vessel and he not embrced since the Diablerie... actually there are no 4th Gen Giovanni around who descended from him
Revised Toreador and Ventrue Clanbooks suggests that Arikel was not the toreador progenitor, and that she was killed by the Nosferatu and Setite Antediluvians, who cut out and ate her heart. Yet she awoke from torpor around 260 BC and advised Prince Alchias of Syracuse.who was a 4th gen, so Arikel was a 3rd Gen who "died"... but got better
Like the Venture Antediluvian, some sources says that Ventrue was destroyed by the Brujah Antediluvian/team of Brujah in the either first or either second city, yet he embraces left and right, till 60 BC when he embraced Antonius and Erik Eigermann/Ueruic and Danava believe themselves to be the guardians of their Antediluvian (pitri, or "father"), whom they call Veddhartha. These Danava claim that the Ventrue are in fact an errant antitribu bloodline of the Danava. Veddhartha was the Sire of Mithras by the way, So...
Zapatashura death was described in deatail, and considered dead, yet even in V5 there are hints (blood of Zapatashura, or what that thing is called) maybe he is not THAT dead
Like how Malkav was tore apart, yet his children consumed his blood to shiled it from the sun, so he survived as the Cobweb/Madnes network... if that trick worked with Malkav, Zapatashura may survived too, since the sun not destroyed his lifeblood.... or it was just a reality alteration
Even the death of the Second Generation is not totally confirmed or decribed, and several books descrbe them survivors, Enoch, Zillah, the First Born, or even Irad or the Crone... survived in one form or a nother
Really the two confirmed kills are the Queen and King of En'esh who Haqim destroyed and became a vampire with their blood, but even that is just an Assamite version
Maybe the Two Lovers death are a certanity... they walked out to the sun.. but thats a Toreador legend

It seems you are thinking Ravnos pulled a trick equal to what Haqim is capable of. Interesting.

[Psicose]

Ennoia can engulf anyone inside the earth, Brujah can control the time, Shaper can make a army and Lucian have a so strong presence that can stop anyone.

[Moriaki]

Technically Zapathasura could try and create a reality where none of the other ante's exist but it's probably not as simple as a finger snap.
(Also Cain could and probably would stop him.)
Unless one reality doesn't supplant another. Zappy may be destroyed in our reality but un-alive and kicking in another.