Is taking blood from a blood bank less ethical than hunting?

[ShovelHeart3]

Many discipline powers consume vitae at the higher levels, so there's already an implicit cap to what powers an extremely ethical vampire can use even if there's not an explicit one. Every time you merge with the ground or boost your strength to move that refrigerator away from the entrance to your hidey hole, you're using up blood that could have gone to a trauma victim in an ER. That's before you even get into how sinister most of the higher discipline powers are in terms of what they do to people.

That's all very true, but I contend that it's not enough. Consider the other end of the spectrum, low Humanity. You're at a constant risk of permanently losing yourself. You have more enemies. You have a larger target on your back - what the SI has done to the Sabbat is a good example of this. There's a heavy bias in favor of Humanity and the game explicitly railroads you there. It's not balanced and it's not fair. It is inherently discriminatory.

To further illustrate my attitude on the subject, I will give some real world examples for my rationale against "ethical" vampires and the discriminatory bias of the game. First, in regards to high humanity vampires and why I consider the concept ridiculous, there is a biological factor: there was a real-world study done on what happens when testosterone was administered to what would be stereotypically referred to as "liberals" or "leftists" - they became more right wing (a quick search will give you this study or I can provide it if requested). And so I'm saying that when you fundamentally alter someone (like becoming a vampire), it's farfetched to assume they will stay the same and hold the same values. They are now fundamentally different. And so I extend this logic to vampiric abilities. What sense does it make for a high humanity vampire to have access to them? It doesn't make sense. Likewise, did you know that offenders of violent crimes have higher average testosterone levels than non/less-violent inmates (can also provide a source for this if desired)? The more violent the offense actually correlated to higher T level and these individuals are also perceived as being tougher and more dominant than others. I'm not trying to use testosterone as a perfect analogy for vampiric power, but I am saying power isn't free and that it makes no sense for vampires close to their humanity to be strong. They shouldn't be because they're simply not and an excessive reverence of "ethics" demonstrates this . If low humanity's detriment is danger, high humanity's should be impotence. That would be far more balanced and fair.

[Muad'Dib]

As far as I know many Vampires manage to normally and extensively hunt for blood to sustain , whether it is night shift office buildings, libraries, churches (and other religious buildings or temples), households, and various different alleys and streets. Seeking blood through the usual choices and means seems distinctly better the currently outlined alternatives - like storing blood through various means or drinking indirectly from a person who would be bleeding.

Also there is relatively little that says or implies that a Vampiress drinking blood from a mortal (or from a supernatural person, like a Tradition Mage) causes damage to health of persons on an ongoing basis., or that a problematic situation or a troublesome event will happen due to this. Thus traditional and normal hunting (and it's various numerous types and varieties) seems to be the best and most reliable method of drinking blood for Vampires. Definitely it seems and also feels that this should clearly be like this.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

That's all very true, but I contend that it's not enough. Consider the other end of the spectrum, low Humanity. You're at a constant risk of permanently losing yourself. You have more enemies. You have a larger target on your back - what the SI has done to the Sabbat is a good example of this. There's a heavy bias in favor of Humanity and the game explicitly railroads you there. It's not balanced and it's not fair. It is inherently discriminatory.

To further illustrate my attitude on the subject, I will give some real world examples for my rationale against "ethical" vampires and the discriminatory bias of the game. First, in regards to high humanity vampires and why I consider the concept ridiculous, there is a biological factor: there was a real-world study done on what happens when testosterone was administered to what would be stereotypically referred to as "liberals" or "leftists" - they became more right wing (a quick search will give you this study or I can provide it if requested). And so I'm saying that when you fundamentally alter someone (like becoming a vampire), it's farfetched to assume they will stay the same and hold the same values. They are now fundamentally different. And so I extend this logic to vampiric abilities. What sense does it make for a high humanity vampire to have access to them? It doesn't make sense. Likewise, did you know that offenders of violent crimes have higher average testosterone levels than non/less-violent inmates (can also provide a source for this if desired)? The more violent the offense actually correlated to higher T level and these individuals are also perceived as being tougher and more dominant than others. I'm not trying to use testosterone as a perfect analogy for vampiric power, but I am saying power isn't free and that it makes no sense for vampires close to their humanity to be strong. They shouldn't be because they're simply not and an excessive reverence of "ethics" demonstrates this . If low humanity's detriment is danger, high humanity's should be impotence. That would be far more balanced and fair.

Correlation vs causation. Hormone levels have been known to fluctuate wildly throughout the day, and by the time prisoners would have their levels read for whatever study this was, they were likely in a high-stress environment with a lot of environmental factors that drive up production of what people were looking for. There's a reason that US prisons are said to be finishing schools for criminals, and it isn't because people are biologically wired from birth to end up in them. Also, single studies with potentially spurious methods aren't really good places to look for anything.

As for vampires, some people want to play diehard holdouts to humanity, and that shouldn't be off the table. It's just going to be difficult because that's how V:tM was built.

[ShovelHeart3]

Correlation vs causation. Hormone levels have been known to fluctuate wildly throughout the day, and by the time prisoners would have their levels read for whatever study this was, they were likely in a high-stress environment with a lot of environmental factors that drive up production of what people were looking for. There's a reason that US prisons are said to be finishing schools for criminals, and it isn't because people are biologically wired from birth to end up in them. Also, single studies with potentially spurious methods aren't really good places to look for anything.

As for vampires, some people want to play diehard holdouts to humanity, and that shouldn't be off the table. It's just going to be difficult because that's how V:tM was built.

There are both environmental and genetic factors and to be clear, I am not stigmatizing offenders. Within incarceration, there are factors that lower testosterone like poor sleep, poor diet and chemicals inserted into food to intentionally lower testosterone, and then of course you have factors which can increase it, like exercise and competition. I've not been to prison, but to jail and there are certainly observable levels of behavioral and physical difference among different types of inmates and the research confirms this. Regardless, I'd like to avoid derailing OP's thread, unless they take an interest in this.

But, I agree playing a humanity holdout shouldn't be off the table, but just as a low humanity character faces severe repercussions for their lifestyle, I think the other end of the extreme should get a similar treatment and I think explicitly inhibiting vampiric power is the best way to do this. Will your character hold steadfast to their ethical dogma or will the harshness of night coerce them into moving away from what they once were? I think this is both balanced and fair and plays into the "personal horror" of VTM. Yes, it's difficult to maintain high humanity as it is, but I think there needs to be more inherent weakness for clinging to it.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

V:tM has been heavy-handed enough with the metaplot and other various measures in the past, so there should still only be an implicit limit inflicted by not having the reserves to do much. It doesn't need to actually hit the player over the head with a shovel before playing a vampire.

[Iguazu]

There are good-things and bad-things here; it is unethical, from a vampires blood-supply; so, donated-blood is meant for sick mortals that need that blood to survive; if a vampire takes, even only a few pints of donated-blood a mortal my die, hence reducing the blood-supply.

[Thoth]

If mortals are donating their blood willingly to a blood bank to be used as it sees fit, does that mean a healer Salubri can drink it without triggering the clan weakness?

[Sergeant Brother]

Tangent:
In fact, I wish there were penalties for being too high humanity - yeah, it makes total sense that you get all these cool powers from being a super-predator, but are somehow intrinsically the same person with a couple pointier teeth and a UV allergy. I think if your character is worried about who might not be getting their red bag, then you should have your disciplines capped at the first level or something to that affect. If you want to stay "human" as much as possible, why should you get the benefits of vampirism? You shouldn't.

Not trying to be too negative, it's just how I feel about it and status quo collectivism oversaturating everything.

I agree with this. A few years ago, I made a thread making blood potency (basically, the advantages of low generation) inversely tied to Humanity. So a high humanity vampire would essentially be thin blooded, with less vampiric power and fewer vampiric weaknesses. While low Humanity vampires had high blood pools, could spend more blood points per turn, and had higher Discipline maximums. People all hated it and disagreed with me. Though I still think that it would be a neat idea to create a balance between vampire weaknesses and vampire powers through Humanity.

[MyWifeIsScary]

ShovelHeart3 I want a source supporting the idea that high testosterone in men causes them to be more right wing, because it sounds like total bullshit. There's a few anecdotes of correlation but nothing for causation as I'm aware (more right-wingers are into lifting, which boosts testosterone. Twinks very notably seem to have lower testosterone, but given right-wing attitudes towards twinks it'd be considerably more difficult to develop right-wing sympathies)

If mortals are donating their blood willingly to a blood bank to be used as it sees fit, does that mean a healer Salubri can drink it without triggering the clan weakness?

Such a horrible clan weakness that needs to be houseruled out every time. But I imagine probably not. I mean, define "vessel". A bloodbag is a vessel, can it possibly be willing? Of course not. So it's the wrong stuff, take damage.

[Sergeant Brother]

The influence of testosterone on people's minds is an interesting topic, I'm curious to see them myself. Though its kinda controversial as well as off topic. It might be a better idea to discuss those studies in private messages.

[Heavy Arms]

I can spare some time and perhaps actually get this tangent back on topic:

Increasing testosterone doesn't make people more conservative, it makes them more reactionary. As a neurotransmitter, the hormone increases your prioritization of threat responses over other considerations. Most of the studies do not find that this is a universal impact on political reactions: it doesn't make everyone more conservative. The most profound reaction is on "weak left" identifying men. Right identifying people show no significant response changes, and strong left identifying people show no significant response changes or sometimes actually move farther left (again, it makes you more reactionary). Men also take less testosterone to cause neurological state changes even though all humans use it as part of our emotional regulation.

To try to pivot though, this only goes back to my point about defining a starting ethical framework for any of this to matter. If you inject a bunch of people in a calm and safe mental space with testosterone... nothing is going to happen (well, they might get fidgety, you are loading them up with a stimulant) as long as nothing else changes. It only matters when you actually add more context. You can't even start to gauge the concept of how neurology impacts political opinions with defining political ideologies to slot things into. The ethics of being a vampire likewise require context to analyze. It doesn't matter how much of a change becoming a vampire is to the character: ethics are an emergent property of applied moral philosophy. If we are analyzing the ethics of their actions from an external perspective any changes on an individual level don't matter. If we're analyzing it from an in-character perspective, we don't have to go full relativist on this, but we have to at least consider things like Humanity being a real thing for vampires to deal with (and deal with the RAW, not how we feel it should be done), and things like The Traditions, since those are going to set moral benchmarks to decide how ethical a vampire is being by common vampire moral principles.

[Thoth]

Such a horrible clan weakness that needs to be houseruled out every time. But I imagine probably not. I mean, define "vessel". A bloodbag is a vessel, can it possibly be willing? Of course not. So it's the wrong stuff, take damage.

By that logic a willing vessel who cuts themselves above a chalice, makes the blood inedible because the cup can't consent to being drunk from. That makes less sense than the Salubri clan weakness as written. It only needs to be house ruled if you don't want the healer Salubri to have a unique play style or players who can't see the obvious methods for dealing with the restrictions.

Also you don't take damage, you lose willpower according to V20 at least.

[Muad'Dib]

I agree with this. A few years ago, I made a thread making blood potency (basically, the advantages of low generation) inversely tied to Humanity. So a high humanity vampire would essentially be thin blooded, with less vampiric power and fewer vampiric weaknesses. While low Humanity vampires had high blood pools, could spend more blood points per turn, and had higher Discipline maximums. People all hated it and disagreed with me. Though I still think that it would be a neat idea to create a balance between vampire weaknesses and vampire powers through Humanity.

If I may ask, did you give at least some consideration for Vampires on Paths of Enlightenment and Roads ( Road of Sin, Road of Kings, Road of Humanity, Road of Heaven ) in regard to these thoughts and ideas ?

[MyWifeIsScary]

By that logic a willing vessel who cuts themselves above a chalice, makes the blood inedible because the cup can't consent to being drunk from. That makes less sense than the Salubri clan weakness as written. It only needs to be house ruled if you don't want the healer Salubri to have a unique play style or players who can't see the obvious methods for dealing with the restrictions.

Also you don't take damage, you lose willpower according to V20 at least.

It was a tongue in cheek response. But on the flipside do you think Salubri can get around their weakness by cutting open their victims and drinking once it's outside the vessel, or do you think the tremere have been witch-hunting Salubri by offering everyone blood bags from forced donors and seeing who wretches? The Salubri weakness is really stupid. The idea that there's a clan killed by the Tremere that were so nice that their weakness was that they needed consenting victims really should only be seen as anti-tremere slander.

[Lysander]

Crazy how the post shifted into a mini debate on testerone and how it affects everyone differently.