Ghoul Outcomes

[Gryffon15]

This question has come up from me thinking about the logistics of certain aspects of vampire, for the sake of my own personal verisimilitude. My question is, how do people think that vampires would handle superfluous ghouls? Let me elaborate.

Here’s a hypothetical. Vampire Tom ghouls Mark, an executive. Tom wants Mark to set aside a percentage of his salary every month to help keep Tom flush. In exchange Tom gives Mark regular feedings. I know that this is a rather vulgar example and that experienced and savvy vamps would be more subtle than Tom is being, but work with me.

This arrangement works fine for a decade or so but inevitably people begin to comment on how wonderfully Mark is aging (ie not at all) and Tom knows that sooner or later he has to do something to avoid a masquerade breach. However, Tom can’t simply cut ties and leave (well, not without some major issues at any rate). Mark knows too much to be left alone and who knows what he might do if he’s forced to go cold turkey.

So, what is Tom and all the other Toms of the world to do?

I came up with some ideas that apply to this type of thing, but I’m curious to hear what others think. Here’s some possibilities:

A. Tom kills Mark. This does solve several problems re the Masquerade and is the simplest solution. However it does leave a body and it will be a humanity hit, which makes it unattractive to most vampires.

B. Tom goes into hiding with Mark as a renfield. Tom has to change his persona every decade or so to hide his own immortality anyway, so why not bring Mark along? Well, he could. However there are things that may make him hesitate. If Mark was ghouled for some sort of service originally, moving him removes most of Mark’s external resources. He still has his skills and the daylight abilities and so forth of a ghoul, but his value does decline. In time Mark can hypothetically be reintroduced to society, although at the cost of creating a strong enough false identity. Furthermore, how many Marks does Tom want to support? On a long enough timeline, if Tom doesn’t wise up, he’s gonna pick up a new Mark every couple decades. The blood it takes to support them all would add up over time.

C. Tom (or an associate) drops a mental whammy on Mark. Using Dominate or some other ability, Tom alters Mark’s memories and simply leaves. This is a direct solution but it still has problems. For one thing, a prolonged time as a ghoul leaves threads. Any one of those could cause the memory alteration to weaken if Mark investigated them. Furthermore this doesn’t remove the blood bond or the addiction that Mark is suffering.

D. Tom pawns Mark off to some other vampire. This solves the problem of Mark still getting his blood and an experienced ghoul could certainly be valuable. This also has drawbacks however. For one, Mark’s new domitor will probably always be suspicious of his loyalties. However useful Mark may be, he will always carry the risk of being a sleeper agent and many vampires would rather not risk it.

These are the ideas I came up with as I considered this question, I’m curious if you all have any.

[Thoth]

One method that comes to mind is the notion that during the decade time window before people notice Mark isn't aging, Tom folds Marks business into his own portfolio and as such Mark can be "promoted" to a different branch of the company where his actual age is lied about, thus granting another 10 years of use before his next reassignment. Yes this means Mark has to remake his life every decade or so and cut ties with his old friends, but between the blood bond and the promise of a very long life and potential embrace, it is quite the benefits package.

This mirrors the fact that technically vampires themselves are supposed to move every ten years or so to avoid being noticed for lack of aging. Assuming you lived in a largish city, you would have to maintain between 4 and 8 different havens that you cycle between so that you don't run into people from a previous decade. Yes if you are a nosferatu living in the sewers it doesn't matter how long you are down there, but if you are passing as mortal or using mortal minions this needs tending to.

[Muad'Dib]

This scenario seem to assume both major isolation, and also very difficult requirements in regard to Mark having to abandon, or redefine, or change his routine. Is there any reason why Mark cannot be introduced to other Ghouls, or maybe Vampires, who need decent help and support ? He should be able to adjust and achieve successes even if he will have some initial difficulties.

[No One of Consequence]

E. Tom forces Mark to make himself look older, starting with cosmetics but eventually involving surgery. At some point Mark hits retirement age and slowly over the next decade or so becomes a recluse. Optionally, Tom makes one of Mark's children or grandchildren his new cash cow (ghouling optional). Mark either continues to exist as the family's creepy patriarch or is chained up in the basement until he detoxes, withers into old age and dies of decrepitude.

F. Mark goes crazy and thinks ATM machines are demanding he feed them cats. Tom washes his hands of the matter. Eventually Mark is either killed resisting arrest or winds up in an asylum, with any claims about vampires clearly being a part of his psychotic delusions.

G. Mark, with the help of a few friends or family members, subdues Tom and keeps him chained in a basement, eventually forming the Cult of the Beatific Tom, with members offering sacrifices in exchange for divine communion. Mark is 100% completely and honestly convinced that this is for Tom's own good and is what Tom really wants.

[MrNatas]

Like a ghoul that has been going on for a decade or more seems like something that the vampire in questions would gear to get ready to be embraced, if only because of the reasons why getting rid of them some other way might be deleterious. That doesn't help in the specific scenario to keep the cash flow but it seems like that's why people set up an estate and handle that through a revolving door proxy to make sure that the "estate's" interest are kept.

[voidshaper]

Thinking back on the characters I played, those who had ghouls treated them rather specific to their clan and/or personality.

The Ventrue was grooming a childe, so it was B but it was mostly the same as with a vampire, their businesses were large enough to run with names on paper.

The Tremere made use of ghouls that rotated through the chantries. He also had a slightly modernized golem as a lab assistant.

The Brujah was actually a ghoul posing as a vampire (lol).

The Nosferatu preferred animals.

Ironically the Tzimisce who would have had the easiest time to keep up appearances of their Revenant retainers had the least need for it, because they were living so isolated.

[MrNatas]

Ironically the Tzimisce who would have had the easiest time to keep up appearances of their Revenant retainers had the least need for it, because they were living so isolated.

Even if they didn't you can use Viss to artificially age the Ghoul in Question.

[Thoth]

E. Tom forces Mark to make himself look older, starting with cosmetics but eventually involving surgery. At some point Mark hits retirement age and slowly over the next decade or so becomes a recluse.

Would plastic surgery work on a ghoul? The vitae stabilizes their age and provides regeneration, so they would just heal back to their pre-surgery self. Theoretically you could take them off the blood long enough to get the surgery, but they would just automatically age once the blood was out of their system, so the surgery would be redundant.

I have seen several references to vampires having mortals get plastic surgery to look like the vampire to create a daylight persona or at least presence, but I always got the impression that they were full mortals rather than ghouls at the point of surgery.

[Psicose]

First of all, one way to avoid this scenario is to use a human to take care of your affairs during daylight, a minion, not a ghoul, a ghoul is someone you can have close to you and since he is linked to you by a blood tie, he will hardly betray you, when he takes care of these matters only if he is your representative of a company in your name and acts through human representatives who may or may not know of your condition, preferably not, ideally they don't even know you exist.

Now, as for the part of you transferring the ghoul, it usually happens when you have some proximity to the other kindred, enough to believe that he wouldn't be an immediate threat or as a bargaining chip. Now, every time I saw a ghoul appear in the game he doesn't live long enough for this to be a problem.

[Black Fox]

I think one issue is that STs and PCs tend to overuse Ghouls as a concept. Why exactly are these NPCs being made into ghouls by these vampires? You don't need ghouls if all you want is influence or loyalty. The blood bond works just as well, as it is not necessary to turn someone into a ghoul in order to blood bond them. And the judicious use of Dominate and Presence can alleviate even the need for the blood bond.

It is really just Retainers that the vampire should be making into ghouls. And it isn't even necessary for all Retainers to become ghouls. The blood bond might be all that is needed. Or even the promise (plus demonstration the vampire honors his promises) that the vampire will look after the mortal retainer's descendants. Or being able to provide them with resources, contacts, etc. that come as a result of a vampire using their powers to obtain things the person needs. You don't necessarily need to turn someone into a ghoul to obtain loyalty or favors.

And someone usually overlooked by STs and PCs are the drawbacks to ghouls. They require the vampire to keep providing blood on a monthly basis, making it inconvenient to their own health. And the eventual psychological drawbacks of being a ghoul may mean you don't want the person to be a ghoul. You can get by with a mortal whose loyalty is secured through other ways.

Turning someone into a ghoul may not be the best method to provide the vampire what it wants. If Tom wants Mark to set aside some money so Tom has access to it, why is making Mark a ghoul necessary? Aren't there better ways to obtain Mark's cooperation? And if you can, then it avoids all the problems Gryffon15 mentions.

[Gryffon15]

I do think that the example I gave is a brute force one, so I figured I’d explain how I came to it. It came from me contemplating how a young and unestablished vampire might go about getting for themselves all the nice things that are assumed to go along with age and status.

While of course the Internet has widely opened possibilities that had previously been limited to wire or mailing services, many vampires only being able to operate during the night limits their ability to make money ordinarily. While their are a variety of schemes that one can use to get money with purely mundane means, including simple criminal activity, I can imagine vampires who would prefer to limit how much they have to do that to get by.

Considering it, it seemed that the blood bond provided a means of getting leverage available to all vampires, including those without help from abilities like Dominate or Presence. The standard neonate, if they can pull off the process of blood bonding, can open up a world of possibilities for themselves via their thralls. While it would only be for the most simple and direct to use just such means, it’s certainly an attractive device to get a quick leg up.

That being said, this led into consideration of a larger question I’ve often had when considering vampiric logistics, what do vampires do with their Thralls who are no longer useful or desirable. Which is why I went to the forums to crowd source ideas, not limited to the most bare bones Tom-Mark example, but applying to that larger question.

(Also, perhaps I’m mistaken, but I had assumed that becoming a ghoul occurs automatically with the consumption of vampiric blood needed to establish the blood bond? Is that not the case? If so, my mistake on that front)

[Baaldam]

This arrangement works fine for a decade or so but inevitably people begin to comment on how wonderfully Mark is aging (ie not at all) and Tom knows that sooner or later he has to do something to avoid a masquerade breach. However, Tom can’t simply cut ties and leave (well, not without some major issues at any rate). Mark knows too much to be left alone and who knows what he might do if he’s forced to go cold turkey.

Honestly, timescale and details definitely matter. How old was Mark when he started getting his "monthly health treatment" in the first place? 20s-30s, late teens, early-to-mid 40s or what?

People who age well are a very real thing, most people won't even pay attention until the mid- to late 40s - and healthy diet, exercise & good genetics can work as easy go-to excuses to handwave things well enough into the 50s or early 60s, depending on person, work envinroment and other issues, meaning Tom might get 2-4 decades of discrete use out of Mark even in "low effort mode" depending on his age at the start of service.

Not to mention that for many people a good chunk of physical changes in the 20s-40s range will have as much to do (if not more) with weight changes, gaining or losing shape through the years than aging proper - things that may affect a ghoul just as much as the average person, since they still have the same bodily needs and are not walking corpses subsisting only on blood.


And that supposing there is a large amount physical evidence or people one regularly interacts with for a number of decades for such agelessness to be noticeable in the first place - what for 90% of humanity, unless you're some sort of business, entertainment or business celebrity, has a job that involves speaking for large numbers of people (like school teacher, university professor, business/health/etc guru, what have you) or perhaps a selfie & social media addict (what, as an aside, would be a horribly hilarious con for a ghoul to have) is simply not the case, i would like to point out.

So i dare say that in general, Mark will deal with about a few dozen people at most between work partners (underlings, associates, superiors, cafeteria workers. etc), regular clients/customers, neighbors, and so on who see him in a regular enough basis to maybe notice in time - and that if those regular acquaitances do not change with time too, what is actually quite probable because let's be brutally honest here, the chances of any one individual person staying in the same job, in the same place for 20+ years in the 20th-21st centuries borders on zero, imho.

In about 25 years of adult life i have moved homes twice (if you start an affair with the landlord's wife, don't get caught, just don't...) in the same city, once to a different city and changed jobs or at least workplaces half a dozen times between promotions tied in relocating to a new branch, mass layoffs in the aftermath of mergers, finding a better paid position in another corporation or public service, home office through the pandemic and so on. And my case is far from unusual based on what i know of the experiences of a number of friends i've kept through the years.

If that applies to mostly normal people it can apply just as much or more to ghouls, whose lives might be changed in all kinds of bizarre ways through kindred meddling, be it from one's domitor, its coterie-mates, allies, mentors, rivals, enemies and so on. Existence as a retainer can be hectic through the indirect influence of the Jyhad.


And none of that going into the fact that, if the individual is more valuable to the kindred staying in whatever mundane position it occupies (instead of hovering around its undead master's every move like a moth near a fire), working that person through the use of influence disciplines like Dominate or Presence (with 5 of the 7 Cam clans favoring at least one if not two of those) can be much more versatile and practical than a blood bond or full-on ghouling, as Black Fox pointed out.

[ShovelHeart3]

Sounds like a double edged sword. A very useful tool, but one of high maintenance. Something I think I would try and do is try to lie about what the blood is and say it's a breakthrough drug or something and try to obfuscate as much of my nature to the ghoul as possible. Essentially, I would treat them like burner phones.

[Baaldam]

I do think that the example I gave is a brute force one, so I figured I’d explain how I came to it. It came from me contemplating how a young and unestablished vampire might go about getting for themselves all the nice things that are assumed to go along with age and status.

While of course the Internet has widely opened possibilities that had previously been limited to wire or mailing services, many vampires only being able to operate during the night limits their ability to make money ordinarily. While their are a variety of schemes that one can use to get money with purely mundane means, including simple criminal activity, I can imagine vampires who would prefer to limit how much they have to do that to get by.

Considering it, it seemed that the blood bond provided a means of getting leverage available to all vampires, including those without help from abilities like Dominate or Presence. The standard neonate, if they can pull off the process of blood bonding, can open up a world of possibilities for themselves via their thralls. While it would only be for the most simple and direct to use just such means, it’s certainly an attractive device to get a quick leg up.

True. Not all Malkavian or Tremere will have Dominate 2, not every Brujah or Toreador will have Presence 2, specially if they are still very young and inexperienced, some Gangrel or Nosferatu might want to have agents and minions though mixing into mortal society ain't so much their thing as clans go. Independents or those from Sabbat 'lines might have those or other issues too. For those individuals the Blood Bond is an invaluable tool in assuring some devotion or loyalty if not outright obedience available to pretty much all kindred.

That being said, this led into consideration of a larger question I’ve often had when considering vampiric logistics, what do vampires do with their Thralls who are no longer useful or desirable. Which is why I went to the forums to crowd source ideas, not limited to the most bare bones Tom-Mark example, but applying to that larger question.

Well, the actual issue is - when and how does a thrall become no longer useful or desirable? Because as you can see from my comments in a previous post, there's a number of pretty simple ways to keep one's ghouls relatively anonymous and avoiding risks of a potential masquerade breach through their agelessness - that as pointed out, due to he fact they are still very much alive, is not quite as static as that of their undead masters. A male ghoul may grow a moustache, beard, sideburns or shave either or all of those for a change in looks and apparent age. Retainers of both genders, change hairstyles or hair colors, it won't go what it previously was in the following night. Add to that moving between departments, homes or jobs every 5-15 years, the occasional fake ID and some other tricks a ghoul might even do on its own, well, because life happens, and a retainer might go a long way just by "recycling" itself.

It's the one's who get progressively eccentric or outright crazy due to a mix of strong attachments to certain elements of their past, humanity degeneration - or their masters abuse due to their growing humanity degeneration - that one might have to worry about.

And well, i'd imagine some kindred exchange or outright give retainers just as much as they do favors, information and all kinds of resources, material and immaterial. What could be a great way for a young lick to possess a very competent and powerful, if somewhat "eccentric", retainer (and stealth ally or mentor) that would usually be above, in some cases, way above, their actual weight class for example.

(Also, perhaps I’m mistaken, but I had assumed that becoming a ghoul occurs automatically with the consumption of vampiric blood needed to establish the blood bond? Is that not the case? If so, my mistake on that front)

Truth be told, it was the base assumption back in 1st and 2nd editions, but ghouldom has been made into more of an active choice on the part of the domitor since either Revised (though i could be wrong and mixing up with Requiem lore here) or V20.

[Black Fox]

That being said, this led into consideration of a larger question I’ve often had when considering vampiric logistics, what do vampires do with their Thralls who are no longer useful or desirable. Which is why I went to the forums to crowd source ideas, not limited to the most bare bones Tom-Mark example, but applying to that larger question.

I would think the most likely result would either be destruction of the ghoul, or turning over the ghoul to somebody else to use.

I think just abandoning the ghoul would lead to a lot more trouble so the safe thing is to make sure the ghoul either has a new handler or is eliminated.

However, there may be some ghouls who frequent vampire society enough that they "hang around" for a period of time, hoping to be picked up by someone else. But if they cannot find a new master within enough time, I'm sure some enterprising vampires assumes the burden at eliminating the hanger on to make sure she does not become a threat.

A frequent poster here, False Epiphany , runs a very detailed online game that incorporates a lot of ghouls into the greater cast. I think he has run lots of ideas of how ghouls are "disposed" when no longer wanted. Hopefully he'll post.

(Also, perhaps I’m mistaken, but I had assumed that becoming a ghoul occurs automatically with the consumption of vampiric blood needed to establish the blood bond? Is that not the case? If so, my mistake on that front)

My understanding is that to be a ghoul means you sufficient have vitae in your system equivalent to one Blood Point. Ghouls can use this vitae to do the same things that vampires can do - increase Physical Attributes, soak damage, heal wounds, etc. The Ghoul's supernatural powers depends on vitae being inside them, and 1 Blood Point of vitae naturally "burns" off within a month requiring the vampire to feed them on an ongoing basis. I think different game editions varied in how many Blood Points a ghoul could hold at any one time. Without at least 1 Blood Point of vitae in their system, the ghoul is just a human.

In contrast, to be blood bound somehow just has to drink a certain amount of vitae, but much less than an entire Blood Point's worth. So a vampire can blood bond a human but not turn her into a ghoul.