V5 Players Guide is out

[CajunKhan]

I find this particularly unfortunate since I didn't care for their original Bane either: "you suck at using Discipline powers in places that you don't find pretty" just doesn't work for me even in the context of a clan of (often self-proclaimed) artistes.

I like the original bane. It makes them control freaks who attempt to completely dominate their territory artistically, and seek to control prettified areas like Elysium.

[Paramecius]

I like the original bane. It makes them control freaks who attempt to completely dominate their territory artistically, and seek to control prettified areas like Elysium.

Given the risks of using Disciplines in Elysium it's probably less of an incentive there, at least insofar as making too much of a fuss about the aesthetics of that setting could also be taken as an indirect statement of intention to try to leverage their powers in a setting where they ostensibly shouldn't be used at all. Outside of Elysium, it probably encourages them to use Discipline powers that don't have dice pools, or to rely on non-Disicipline-based means of gaining and maintaining influence. In the last sense, it's not actually all that bad insofar as it can encourage more creative player decisions.

I don't have a problem with the Bane on a conceptual level (even if it's not my favorite there either) so much as with the execution. It doesn't do much to really convey stress within or true aversion to ugly people or settings, just a dip in the efficacy of certain supernatural powers.

For an alternative weakness, I was hoping for something that played more into their fixation with drama and passionate natures. Maybe something like the Daeva weakness from VTR in regards to risking blood bonds to vessels through the vicarious experience of intense emotions; since Bane Severity's a mandatory component of all of them, it could dictate the upper limit for Bond Strength in relation to the Bane and/or factor into the cost of Willpower expenditures to resist the effect similar to Ventrue struggling to feed outside their preferences. This would encourage more promiscuous feeding strategies as opposed to Herd dependence and/or more frequently leaning into Desires or Compulsions as a means of Willpower recovery, which not only complements their hedonistic tendencies without mandating them but also offers more varied story fodder than sprucing up locations for the nth time.

[Mr Gone]

Just to say, I'm working up a new version of the Coterie sheet from this book. I had a Coterie/Domain sheet previously, but I'll be working up a new version to incorporate some of the things from the sheet in this book.

Should hopefully have it ready by Friday, assuming everything goes well... I'll keep you posted.

[ShovelHeart3]

First off, congratulations to everyone that has it; I'm jelly. How are you finding it so far besides the Banes?

@Paramecius
I am in agreement with you about the Toreador. Their default Bane is just lazy and stupid. "Toreador" means bullfighter and I would say their discipline spread actually perfectly encapsulates the essence of that. Something related to their passionate and sensuous natures would be far more interesting than "hurr, I need ta be surrounded by pretty pictures" and would still play up the artistic temperament. I think they should suffer harder from ennui or something.

[Nyremne]

The verbs are there for benefit of the newbies,they're meant to give you a idea of what the clan is commonly about as quickly as possible

Problem, they are terrible at benefiting new players.

For a start, they miss most of the basic facts of the clan's culture. Look at the Brujah's verbs, none is about their philosophical nature.
V20 did it better, when it introduced clans, it did so with a single sentence resuming the clan, and it worked.

Also, even if we were to reduce the basics of a clan to a bunch of singular words, verbs are the worst at that. Take the assamite's ones. "judge", okay, judge who? The wicked? The infidels? The guy walking on your grass? It doesn't explain anything.

Multiple games did that better, Eclypse Phase, or the duology Sufficently Advanced and Sorcerously Advanced, which were able to resume factions and in game philosophies with both singular words and bullet points.

The only way to understand the clan with V5 verbs is if you already know the context of the clan, which defeat the purpose of introducing the verbs of the first place.

They are just a bad ideas that the devs though cool, and are doubling down on W5, with the same results.

[TwoDSix]

Honestly the verbs seem to just be something JA had on the mind, he's also plastered them all over W5 (four for your Auspice and four for your Tribe, any ody else smell redundancy). Unfortunately it's a thing that's going to fall very hard into stereotyping, even more than Clans and Tribes already suffer.

I mean, you could probably do better by using two word phrases rather than single verbs. 'Judhe' says nothing, but 'judge outsiders' says a lot, as do 'judge yourself', 'judge family', 'judge no-one', and 'judge divinities', each of which would send the clan off in many different directions. There's a lot you could do, and with a bit of careful consideration you could probably get archetypal but rounded Clandms with three or four pairs of words.
It's never going to as neat as something like Requiem is, but a little bit of mess is fine.

I'll also agree that some of these alternate Banes seem misplaced. Difficulty acting in your own home, for the Clan that tends to be very good at going to ground and protecting their home? Just bring back the old 'lookx like three day old roadkill stuffed through a paper shredder' weakness.

[Knightingale]

Moving onto the Backgrounds-section... Generally, it doesn't really add that much more in terms of advice for positive and negative Backgrounds that you wouldn't have already gotten from the corebook, I think. With a lot of them, it just feels like rephrasing what's already been established by the corebook.

But some highlights:

Allies:

• It says at one point "the more points you put into them the more reliable they are" which ignores that in V5 the game defines Allies by two separate traits (Effectiveness and Reliability).

Contacts:

• There's some bad writing in one place where it says: "As the vampire ages and meets new mortals to add to their arsenal…" (I would say vampires actually not aging is a core-part of their supernatural nature).

Then there are new Haven-Merits:

Business Establishment (2 or 3 dots)

• This is one of those things that becomes such a convoluted idea with the mechanics that I feel like you'd be better off just representing the outlines of the ideas with other Backgrounds like Resources or other Haven-Merits and leaving the rest to Storyteller-adjudication
• This is what the Merit asks you to keep track of:

The downside: A lot of strangers walking around, and exposure to local officials, and business taxes that potentially put you very much on the grid. Renting to criminals takes the taxes and paperwork out of the picture, but adds even more exposure to cops and other less pliable criminals. Reduce your base Haven dots by one for pools involving your Haven’s privacy and for security against either financial or criminal intrusion (pick when you choose this Merit).
Dots in this Merit roughly equate to their Resources equivalent, and the Storyteller may let you use its dots instead of Resources if the substitution makes sense. It also adds two dice to pools to do things related to your business’ activities or core competency, to interact with other local businesses, and to tests of preparedness to already have something you need in the moment (Vampire: The Masquerade, p. 410). Businesses have inventory and supply closets, after all. However, if something happens to your Haven, you don’t have those Resource-like dots any more: no money comes into your pool hall if it burns down or if the FBI closes it off as a crime scene.
You may want to take “regular” Resources dots as a backup. They don’t stack: a two-dot Business Establishment plus two dots in Resources means you have two Middle Class income streams; you’re not four-dot Wealthy.

• Also the descriptions for the dots-versions seem a bit... much (especially in light of the Coterie-system we'll come to later):

•• Your haven’s business is a thriving local concern or national chain outlet.
••• Your haven’s business is a dominant local concern or an office of an international company. Perhaps you have a few floors of a skyscraper, or an office building near the airport, or even a pier and warehouses on the docks where you collect fees from ships and shippers alike.

Furcus:

• It asks you to roll Architecture + Occult to find the location of your supernaturally charged Haven. V5 doesn't have Secondary Skills, though... And you could've easily just made it an Attribute+Occult roll.

Loresheets:

• The way it's talking about taking Loresheets is strangely angry...

Loresheets exist to highlight a certain aspect of the world for the interested player and Storyteller, without forcing every player to master the entire minutiae of the Vampire setting. A Loresheet foregrounds some group, historical event, or elder as it relates specifically to the player, encouraging them to take ownership of that aspect and reminding the Storyteller that vampiric arcana exists to serve the story at the table tonight, not as mandatory history lessons.

(What I put in bold there is in cursive in the book)

New Merits and Flaws
(Mostly it's about how imbalanced a lot of them are)

Remarkable Feature (1 dot Merit):
You possess a rare, memorable feature such as a striking eye color, atypical pupils, or an unusual complexion, providing a two-dice bonus to social interactions with strangers. (The novelty quickly wears off.) Take a one-die penalty to disguise yourself.

• Striking eye color I get but atypical pupils and unusual complexion (does that mean your character's blueskinned or something...?) sound more like masquerade-breaks and/or disturbing.

Nuit Mode (2 dot Merit)
Your body doesn’t automatically revert to the deathstate each night, enabling you to keep things like new haircuts, tattoos, and other body modifications at your option. You are still able to return to your original death-state, though, and can mend any later modifications as if they were Aggravated damage. This Merit is available only to Kindred of Blood Potency 1 or lower. (If your Blood becomes more potent at any point, the Merit no longer grants any benefit, but if you drop back down to Blood Potency 1 it returns.)

• Here I am not sure if it has always been like that in VtM. I know that me and my group were never that strict regarding a vampire's appearance.

Check the trunk
Take an additional two dots in Preparedness pools (Vampire: The Masquerade, p. 410) for items within this Resource band.

• It should be dice, not dots.

Tempered Will (3 dot Merit)

• Helps against Dominate and Presence and yet...

Only someone with no dots in either Dominate or Presence can take this Merit. (If you acquire the Disciplines afterward, or temporarily as with thinbloods, the Merit no longer grants any benefit while you possess them.)

• Why?

Transparent (1 dot Flaw)
For whatever reason, you aren’t a good liar, and it shows. You either have a terrible poker face or your parents instilled in you a strong urge to be truthful even when it hurts. Lose one die from any pools requiring Subterfuge. You cannot gain dots in Subterfuge.

• Banning a Skill for a character seems quite harsh for 1 dot.

Vein tapper (1 dot Flaw)
You find the act of feeding extremely personal and cannot take blood from mortals while being observed. This means you often feed from the unaware and go out of your way to find (or create) drugged or unconscious victims.

• Okay...? Where are the mechanics? And the Sandman-Predator-Type is all about doing exactly this already.

Risk Taker (1 dot Flaw)
You’re one of those people who feel compelled to take every chance to experience life at its fullest. When confronted with a chance to indulge a risky temptation you haven’t done before (such as snorting a new drug, imbibing vampire blood, or taking a Kindred lover), you suffer a two-dice penalty to all actions until you either partake of the new experience or the scene ends. This Flaw doesn’t compel you to do something suicidal ... but you may not always accurately predict the full consequences of your actions.

• I mean, it says it doesn't compel you to do anything suicidal but how would you describe a character doing whatever seems risky and/or new in the moment without thinking about the consequences...?
• Also, again, way too harsh for a 1 dot Flaw.

Next comes the chapter on Castoffs...

[blailton]

V5 doesn't have Secondary Skills, though...

hahahahaha xD

[Knightingale]

What is the alternate Gangrel bane?

Sorry, forgot to post this before...

Gangrel: Survival Instincts
Nothing matters more to the Animals than survival. Among the most tenacious of all vampire clans, the Gangrel can endure almost anything and thrive in the harshest conditions. Where the Beast can often put a vampire in unfavorable situations, a Gangrel’s instincts are calibrated foremost to make sure they see another night.

Subtract dice equal to the Bane Severity of the Gangrel from any roll to resist fear Frenzy. This cannot take the pool below one die.

This variant is good for danger-filled chronicles where fire and sunlight are constant threats but where mental and social conflicts are less common, or if the troupe just doesn’t want to bother with tracking temporary dice penalties.

__________________________________________________ ____

That also reminds me of another Flaw I forgot to mention that I don't really like...

Twice-Cursed (2 dot Flaw)

You are cursed with additional Bane, making you labor under additional weight borne out of your clan founder’s flawed nature.
Take your clan’s variant Bane (see p. 56) in addition to your regular Bane. The Storyteller can prohibit this Flaw if the second Bane would cause problems for, or lack impact in, the chronicle.

• If the book-writers really wanted this to be a thing, it would've been incumbent upon them to go back to these alternate Banes and really make sure that taking both the original Bane and the alternate one is a playable option. The Storyteller has nothing to do with that. If the systems would cause problems or lack impact then clearly they need a rewrite. "The Storyteller can prohibit...", sure... What about Storytellers that are fresh to the hobby and/or unfamiliar with the V5-system? "Can prohibit" is clearly mentioned here because the writers must be aware that these Banes aren't properly balanced and some will create problems and others will lack impact. Don't make this the Storyteller's problem when the mechanics weren't well-balanced to begin with. The better option would've been to not include this flaw at all because of the problems it can cause.

[ShovelHeart3]

So, this is just the alpha release sent out for review, r-right?

[Shadeprowler]

"Toreador" means bullfighter

I yearn for the good old days, when Ishtar, the bull-dancer (and Arikel, the sculptor) was the Antediluvian and inveted the art of bull-dancing, aka. Bull-leaping a types of non-violent bull fighting, and passed down and witch later became the base of the ancient ritual in the Minoan civilization involving an acrobat leaping over the back of a charging bull (or cow).
Those were the days

[Asmodai]

Knightingale that Gangrel flaw seems very out of character for a tribe well known to venturing where other vampires prefer not to go.

So, this is just the alpha release sent out for review, r-right?

This is what was submitted for print if they are meeting the deadlines and physical product deliveries. Renegade doesnt have the preview process that's checked before release by people who bought the book early (like onyx path).

[Knightingale]

Knightingale that Gangrel flaw seems very out of character for a tribe well known to venturing where other vampires prefer not to go.

When it comes to the whole thematics-thing... Reading the new Clan-writeups for the Clans that weren't in the V5-Companion, I kinda gave up on thematics being that important to V5 anymore. Like here's "Who Are The Ministry?" from the V5 Players Guide:

No copying chunks of text from books for posting here. Thank you.

This is what was submitted for print if they are meeting the deadlines and physical product deliveries. Renegade doesnt have the preview process that's checked before release by people who bought the book early (like onyx path).

Hopefully, that's not the case because otherwise, it would mean Renegade is releasing three terribly edited WOD5E books this year or potentially four depending on how rushed the release of W5 is.

[Asmodai]

When it comes to the whole thematics-thing... Reading the new Clan-writeups for the Clans that weren't in the V5-Companion, I kinda gave up on thematics being that important to V5 anymore. Like here's "Who Are The Ministry?"

... Wtf. Alas poor Setites.

Hopefully, that's not the case because otherwise, it would mean Renegade is releasing three terribly edited WOD5E books this year or potentially four depending on how rushed the release of W5 is.

If they want to have the physical books in hand by June 2023, it has to be in print right now (actually near the end of the print cycle) to arrive on time from China. You can see on page two that they're printed in China.

[Nicolas Milioni]

Can you guys explain to me why that particular description of the MInistry/Setites displeases you?