Pure Breed and Black Furies

[wonderandawe]

How does Pure Breed work for male Garou born to the Black Furies? Do they lose it when they are accepted by Unicorn?

Do their Garou Daughters return to the Black Furies gain the benefits of their CoG Father's Pure Breed?

[Heavy Arms]

The books are kind of contradictory on Pure Breed. So the best way to handle these things depends highly on how you interpret what the Trait really represents.

[Black Fox]

Pure Breed seems to be spiritual in the sense it is specific to each tribe. It doesn't carry if the Garou somehow becomes a member of a different tribe that his lineage indicates.

The answer to the first question is a strong "yes". Male Black Fury don't get the Pure Breed rating their sister gets after becoming a Black Fury.

I don't believe there is much official guidance on the second question, and it depends on how you view it. On a "genetic" level, such a daughter should retain at least some Pure Breed. However, if there is a strong spiritual component, it is possible that the father's admittance into another tribe might "pollute" that pure breed and deny the daughter any benefit of Pure Breed. Different STs probably have different positions. For me, given the relative rarity of Pure Breed, I'd probably rule it wouldn't happen - but if a PC had that as a concept and really wanted it, I wouldn't argue about it.

[Prince of the Night]

I think it said somewhere, that they kept an eye on the children of wayward children who joined the CoG to invite their daughters to join the tribe

so I'd say yes.

[Ana Mizuki]

They keep the black and white coat and greek features, but lose the spiritual benefit.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

They keep the black and white coat and greek features, but lose the spiritual benefit.

Human ethnicity got removed from consideration in W20, though. It was just consistent tribal membership through generations.

[Ana Mizuki]

Human ethnicity got removed from consideration in W20, though. It was just consistent tribal membership through generations.

True, just tried to be broad with editions here.

[heinrich]

I go by something that was written by Ethan Skemp (developer) on the old White Wolf forums and kind of is in the books as well: Pure Breed is tribe specific.

So, while a male Black Furie can have the trait in theory at birth, we usually don't build characters with stats for right after the start breathing, but when they are adults, or at least pre-change teenagers. By that time the cub can't be the paragon of being a black fury because, without the upbringing and education and acceptance by the tribe, this position is not his. Therefore the trait representing this position should be zero.
The Rite of Passage includes the person into another tribe, and while the person can strive to be a paragon of the tribe, the additional kick from having this position inherited is not possible. The same goes for the Rite of Adoption. If one changes the tribe pure breed is lost.

There are of course some exceptions, I'd allow. If someone like Albrecht is basically banished and doesn't work on being a paragon of his tribe and garou-kind, the pure breed still isn't lost, for his heritage is still there for the taking. I'd also allow for a mixed-tribe child (from kin/garou parings or metis-born) to be pure bred for one of the parents tribes (even the kin parents), if this is the tribe of the child, too.

Surely, it would make things easier if Pure Breed made one a paragon of garou-kind and was not tribal specific, but that's not how it is inteded according to the then-werewolf-developer. And I rather like the idea, that if you have pure breed, I as the ST can tell you, that you are supposed to be more archetypical of the tribe you play, then other characters. For, I love archtypes in general.

[Aya Tari]

How does that relate to Pure Breed in Kinfolk though? Do Human Kinfolk lose their Pure Breed Background if they marry into another Tribe? Do Wolf Kinfolk lose their Pure Breed Background if they join a pack of another Tribe?

[Black Fox]

Pure Breed in kinfolk is more like "what spiritual breed benefit can this kinfolk give to his Garou descendants" and not an actual trait they can use. Because kinfolk aren't tribe members (they never go through a rite of baptism to be accepted by a totem), they don't lose anything if they mate with a Garou from a different tribe. But I would say their descendants only get that potential Pure Breed if they go with the right tribe. If they go with another tribe, their lineage doesn't help them.

[roleplayrose]

Honestly, I have never really understood the Pure Breed trait as a physical thing unless you are the product of years of incest. In my mind, it has to be a spiritual only thing, in which case you could definitely possess it, regardless of the tribe. Maybe you have the regal bearing of an ancient foe, maybe your aura is pure like the Wyrm slayers of old, or perhaps your voice carries in it the weight of ages of singers who came before you. All in all, I find it to be fairly useless.

[Heavy Arms]

Regardless of how one interprets the nature of Pure Breed, it's one of the best investments for social/political focused Garou. Up to +5 dice to all your social rolls with other Garou is kind of insane (esp. since it applies to facedowns).

[Aya Tari]

Pure Breed is a physical thing that is often referred to as almost mystical (Revised, p. 122). The social dice pool bonus is one of the reasons why the Silver Fangs (which traditionally had to have three levels of Pure Breed) tended to rule the Garou Nation. I am curious though, would you say that the social dice pool bonus from Garou Pure Breed should apply to interactions with Garou Kinfolk? I would imagine that would allow Garou with high levels of Pure Breed to seduce Garou Kinfolk more easily, which would lead to greater reproductive success. In addition, it would seem that Garou Kinfolk receive their reproductive bonuses in addition to the social bonuses that they would receive when interacting with Garou (Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes, p. 51).

[CeltSPZ]

So quick Pure Breed question...that bonus applies to gifts that require a social die pool like "Strength of Will" or "Mastery" correct? I always played it that way because I never spotted a rule that said it didn't apply. Because if I've been playing it right, I think that helps highlight just how useful pure breed is to a Garou (especially considering the Garou unlike the other Fera have a relatively large number of fallen members to fight and use these dice pools in offensive gifts like "Mastery" "Icy Chill of Despair" "Howl of the Banshee" ).

[Aya Tari]

I see no reason it would not, but the bonus would only apply when they were used against Garou. Of course, what is good for the goose is good for the gander, so beware of Black Spiral Dancers with Pure Breed 5.