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**Gryffon15** · 08-10-2020, 04:31 PM

I’m also a fan of the tribal weaknesses, for the reasons indicated that they provide spiritual weight to tribal membership but also because that I feel it makes sense that tribes come with a drawback not only to counterbalance the unique gifts and umbral alliances they make available but also because, by their nature, they subvert the garou’s connection you Wolf as their ‘Animal Father’, straying from the way of The First Pack.

I’m personally of the opinion that if we are distinguishing between spiritual and social flaws, which is a good idea I think, we should be careful that all tribes have both a spiritual and social flaw, even if the latter is naturally circumstantial.

To get into specific tribal ideas though...
•Black Furies
-Spiritual: I can definitely see a tendency towards Wyld places, perhaps such as a tendency to encourage the mutation and creation when in natural settings and a lowered frenzy difficulty when surrounded by Weaver taint.
-Social: I do think that perhaps the RAW weakness could’ve utilized, with patronizing or malicious masculine figures lowering frenzy difficulty or awareness in outsider males who only know the Furies by reputation

•Bone Gnawers
-Spiritual: The Bone Gnawers are granted fewer privileges of rank by the spiritual world, perhaps they have a raised difficulty amongst non-outsider or scavenger spirits
-Social: Their first flaw probably works rather well here

•Children of Gaia
-Spiritual: I definitely think that there Delirium weakness works well
-Social: My first thought is a raised difficulty when attempting to mediate disputes until the CoG can prove to the aggravated parties, on those parties terms, that they understand why the dispute is occurring

•Fianna
-Spiritual: I agree that the stereotype isn’t great but I think that the typical weakness could work if it focused more on the idea that Fianna are susceptible to heights of passion for all of their passions, good and ill. Another route might just go for the Stag fertility angle and have the difficulty of resisting romantic or sexual advances be increased for a Fianna.
-Social: The Fianna do pretty well amongst the Garou socially, but I could see a raised difficulty on the Fianna’s part to resist braggadocio or perhaps a raised difficulty to resist fighting their kinfolk’s battles - whatever those battles may be

•Get of Fenris
-Spiritual: I can definitely see acts of cowardice or unnecessary battle avoidance costing greater renown for a fenrir
-Social: I agree that the ‘purity’ angle can go some dark places with the Fenrir, but I do think it can also work well. They view themselves as Fenrir’s children, so they have a tendency to raise social difficulties where they feel superior to others or where they view others as being flawed or ‘impure’ for whatever reason the specific Fenrir prefers. In my mind this could be anything from cowardice, to sexuality, to fanatic loyalty to who the fenrir sees as the wrong people; it varies wildly (also Fenrir with obvious prejudices, we all know the type, should definitely be in the antagonist vein of the tribe)

•Glass Walker
-Spiritual: I definitely think there love of technology and advancement can work well
-Social: As the classical urrah, I imagine raised difficulties working with rural garou and naturae spirits

•Red Talons
-Spiritual: Difficultly gaining gnosis in places of highly developed civilization and difficulty working with artificial and urban spirits definitely makes sense to me
-Social: The classic here is naturally a raised difficulty working with humans and homids and a lower frenzy difficulty in response to their assaults against the Wyld

•Shadow Lords
-Spiritual: The weaknesses for failure and additional renown loss definitely make sense to me
-Social: the wariness of other tribes aware of the Lords’ reputation make sense to me externally and internally I see increased difficulties for those resistant to or outside the tribal hierarchy

•Silent Striders
-Spiritual: Hauntings and the Curse of Sutekh, natch
-Social: A raised difficulty gaining the trust of pack Garou and settled peoples I see, especially for Striders moving alone

•Silver Fangs
-Spiritual: The Curse of Luna definitely works and I can also see them being particularly targeted by Wyrm spirits to attack or Gaian spirits seeking aid
-Social: bonus difficulties working with those who do not accept their tribe’s supremacy naturally but also difficulty resisting appeals for their aid by those beholden to them (whether garou, human, or spirit) - the ‘Noble Obligation’ as it were

•Stargazers
-Spiritual: I can definitely see the discouragement of frenzy through renown loss working or something like the curiosity flaw for spiritual and/or ephemeral matters
-Social: A raised difficulty amongst outsider groups, both in Asia and abroad, who do not care to dedicate themselves to the Stargazer’s meditations - this may not even be dislike, but the distance caused by alienation or misunderstanding

•Older Brother & Younger Brother
-Raised difficultly dealing with colonial and imperial powers, with specific flairs being shared distrust for Older Brother and tendencies towards violence for Younger Brother

•Older Brother
-Spiritual: A deep curiosity for spiritual matters and hidden things, even (or perhaps especially...) forces of the Wyrm and Name-Breakers

•Younger Brother
-Spiritual: Tie to the Wheel of Seasons by the nature of their constantly adapting totem
-Social: Distrust both internal because of their totem and the attention their violence draws from authorities and external because of their totem and their tendency towards revolt and rebellion

These are all just first draft inspiration ideas, but I hope people find them interesting.

**Black Fox** · 08-10-2020, 10:37 PM

I am not a fan of tribal weaknesses. I think they were tacked on as an optional rule only because as the second game in the WoD, many players just expected some kind of mirror between the tribes and clans. They were something tacked on without enough thought, and it shows.

If one does go to tribal weaknesses, I think the best explanation and theme is that they are indicative of the chiminage tribe members need to pay to their totem spirit as you said.

Is that is how I explain the Garou weakness to silver, the lunar metal. Silver is their bane because it is what the Garou give Luna in exchange for her Gifts (something intrinsic to the nature of being Garou. Unlike tribal totem chiminage, this isn't voluntarily but based on "deep magic.")

As such, I prefer weaknesses/bans that are universal and appropriate through all time periods, though changing times might see that ban/weakness show in different ways. I would be personally against the idea that the weakness/ban changes because of historical changes. They should be something that makes sense given the totem, and could come into play into any era (Stone Age, Classical, Medieval, Modern, Future).

= = =
First, I would just look at the existing weaknesses of the tribes, and see if that is sufficient for the ban.

For example, Bone Gnawers already can't get Ancestors or Pure Breed. And they give up Resources. Rather than give them yet another weakness, utilize that as part of the tribal totem ban.

Rat teaches his children the ways of the small and how they can thrive, but in exchange his children must adopt his ways. As children of a totem of vermin, Bone Gnawers cannot have access to Ancestors or Background. Furthermore, while Bone Gnawers may earn income, they must always be at the mercy of economic or predatory superiors, always living a day to day (or month to month) existence. Bone Gnawers therefore rarely take the Resources background, and must limit it to 1 at most. Any money or resources somehow given to them in excess of that, must be abandoned as a sacrifice to Rat (destruction, abandonment, or donation are all accessible as long as they never have access to it from that point on).

Likewise, the Glass Walkers can be the same. The Cockroach totem prevents them from having Pure Breed and Ancestors. In addition, the tribe is supposedly suffering from the demands of the Weaver which forces certain chiminage to them. Tribebooks and other sources make a point of certain demands put on the tribe (maintenance of certain tribal rituals, and odd statements like their tribal moots must be held exactly as 12:37 AM). So make attending those rites part of their weakness (not because of Cockroach per se, but the Weaver spirits being incorporated into Cockroach's brood). Have it eat up a lot of the characters' time - no excuses by the tribe since if enough Walkers don't do it, the tribe loses a lot of the cool Weaver gifts. So make Walkers who don't devote the time, or properly respect Weaver spirits, have social penalties to the tribe as a whole and the Weaver spirits. So mirror the Notoriety Flaw if they get out of line.

= = =
I think you can find other elements that define a tribe or are already mechanically disadvantageous and make them officially the tribal ban/weakness. I'd start there. And then if there's not enough, start thinking on other things. I think aiming for something equivalent of a two or three point Flaw is a good guideline, though it doesn't need to be an actual Flaw or variation of one. Just something around the same kind of inconvenience or weakness.

Often the pack totem ban does not accurately represent a ban/weakness for the entire tribe. So while I think it is OK to use it as an inspiration, don't be beholden to it. Thinks about the totem in general, and any legends or stories told about it.

For example, one of the most noteworthy myths of Fenris is Tyr allowing Fenris to bite off his hand (or more accurately place his hand in his mouth) in exchange for binding him. We also know that the tribe tends to be portrayed as willing to use their blood as chiminage. So maybe a good ban/weakness is that they have to ritually maim themselves which manifests mechanically as accepting a permanent lowering of one of their physical stats (Strength, Dexterity, or Stamina) or Appearance as if they had received a Battle Scar. But they get no Glory for it, nor can they ever heal it by any means as the damage was specially done in a tribal rite.

Wendigo is known as a cannibal spirit, but for the purposes of Werewolf, it would be more accurate to state the spirit curses those who engage in cannibalism. So first off, the Wendigo must never eat the flesh of man. Period. Doing so leads to severe repercussions (maybe like not being able to use any tribal gifts until the Wendigo undergoes the Rites of Scorn, Ostracism, and Cleansing - you can figure out what works best in your chronicle) regardless if the ban was violated intentionally or not (spiritual pollution is spiritual pollution regardless of how it happened). While powerful, this is also something that should be easily avoided in most games, so you need something more. An element of the Wendigo myth is of course that famine/starvation easily occurs in Winter, and that despite this one must not resort to cannibalism. So maybe there is some kind of ritual fasting that occurs in the winter (or special times throughout the year). And Extreme Hunger, of course, is an example of stress that may call for Rage Rolls.

Silver Fangs - I personally don't like the idea that their current madness of some members is a result of an age old thing. I much prefer the idea that it is a result of the massive inbreeding they are doing, so this is supposed to mirror the various inbred diseases that happened to European royalty (the famous Hapsburg chin and the the hemophilia in Queen Victoria's descendants). Instead, the ban should come from Falcon's expectations of his children. Silver Fangs have always been known for the adherence to very formal ritual, public behavior, and tradition to the point they are often too hidebound and unable to adapt. I will need some time though to come up with a good mechanical disadvantage to reflect this though. But this is the direction I would go. It might be some variant of the Curse Flaw that happens if they ever break these ritualized formalities. Or maybe some kind of Intolerance to those Garou who don't follow the standard Silver Fang interpretation of the Litany and etiquette? Maybe combined with a two point supernatural flaw chosen between Forced/Banned Transformation, Mark of the Predator, or Sign of the Wolf? I think Flaws like Sign of the Wolf and Banned/Forced Transformation are needed for a lot of NPCs in the game to make it appear more like the traditional expectations of Werewolf. So I think they are a good "to go to" aspect if you need something more.

Likewise, the Silent Striders need a weakness that predates the Curse of Set (though they get that too... for free - no Ancestors and can't stay in Egypt). Probably something that happens as a result of Owl entering the Underworld and stirring things up - which could be the ghost attraction thing. Personally, I never liked that as it is something that the ST must come up with as opposed to a ban/weakness that requires effort by the player to avoid or minimize. I think the burden should be carried by them, not the ST (and something they need to avoid, as opposed to being something they must do). Maybe something like the Flaw Nightmares which is only a 1 point flaw, and does not always come into effect. But it could.

Uktena may just have something like the Flaw Notoriety applied to every other tribe due to the Nation's distrust of their totem. If that is too little, maybe add Sign of the Wolf (or one of the other supernatural flaws).

Red Talons are the children of Griffin, and Griffin is supposed to be an arch predator. So maybe a Flaw like Mark of the Predator. That Herbivores fear them, and that they cannot know/learn Animal Ken at all is something that is both appropriate and hurts them (since they mainly stay in the wilderness). This is in addition to never having Resources which can be explained in a "do not adopt the ways of man" ban. If you need something more, maybe a Physical Flaw that would reveal their wolf nature in homid form like Animal Musk, Monochrome Vision, or Strict Carnivore (though wolves are also known to eat certain fruits and similar plants).

Stag is the Prince of the Forest and all about maintaining the cycle of life between predator and prey. I think that is more important than any connection to the fae. Tribal culture is also filled with cultural heroes of the Garou and obedience and celebration to tradition (thought not as hidebound as the Silver Fangs). They also don't have any normal mechanical disadvantages or restricted backgrounds like some tribes. Maybe something like they have to perform at least one Minor Rite once a day, but they never gain any mechanical benefits from doing so (for any minor rite)? And maybe if they have a pack of sept mate who performs a minor rite in their presence they have to join in (since Stag likes these minor rites, especially Hunting Prayer and Prayer for the Prey)? Combine with having to get 2 points of the above mentioned supernatural flaws.

If I can think of more for the other tribes, I'll add them. Not sure if this helps you though, or if you're going in another direction.

**Erinys** · 08-10-2020, 11:29 PM

I like your suggestion for Stag. But yes in many ways I am going in a different direction than you have.

I realize that having both social and spiritual disadvantages that just so happen to all balance each other mechanically is 100% artificial, and it was invented just to mirror the Vampire Clans. The reason I don't want to throw out the whole idea is that for some tribes, these disadvantages can't really be removed. Native Americans always suffer the impact of white supremacy. It can't be removed from their characters. Likewise Australian Aborigines, Ainu, African Americans, and other folks the Uktena breed with now. The Bone Gnawers are treated like crap by other tribes because they're viewed as inferior and lazy and dirty, plus they have Background restrictions. The Silver Fang thing is such a part of the story of the tribe, and how other tribes perceive them. And in all the Werewolf books I've read, nobody trusts a Shadow Lord. Maybe not even each other.

So the question then became for me, how can that balance with the other tribes, without keeping the weaknesses that just don't make a good story? For example, the canonical weaknesses for Black Furies and Get of Fenris are (derogatory) stereotypes. Other tribes might expect them all to behave in these ridiculous ways, but that doesn't mean they all actually do. I could also treat the canon Silver Fangs weakness that way, except I like the story of how they offended Luna and got cursed.

I also like the idea that the Red Talons, Glass Walkers/Boli Zousizhe, and Hakken have become so imbalanced towards wolf or man that they are spiritually damaged now. That idea works well for the Black Furies too -- they're becoming Wyld imbalanced to the extent that in Revised, some of them are catching a Wyld disease and spontaneously mutating. But the Metamorphic Plague doesn't work as a tribal weakness, so they need something else. And then for the above, and the Pure Ones, they need something else from back in the days when they weren't like that...

Maybe for the early Black Furies, a modification of their canon weakness. Not some blanket sexist thing about frenzying on random men in general. But they say they were created to avenge specific terrible wrongs. So if they witness or hear about those things (rape, child molesting, matricide, massive desecration of Earth) they have a harder time keeping their cool. Even in a room full of random innocents, or on a bus, or in a fragile diplomatic situation. But their supposed mission (if it's more than just a story) hasn't gone away in modern times, so I think I'd have to drop the thing about Wyld imbalance for modern Furies. (Also, all Garou risk frenzy if they see or hear about something that outrages them, so how would this actually make Furies different?)
Or maybe move the canon Red Talon weakness to the Furies, and replace the Red Talon and Glasswalker/Iron Rider weaknesses? I think I've seen people say that these canon ones don't matter if the characters never leave their comfort zones anyway. Er, but then Mari Cabrah can't live in New York City, so that doesn't work either.
I am thinking that for the Uktena and Wendigo, they had certain social ritual responsibilities. Kind of like your Fianna idea, but of course specific to their own cultures. They are no longer expected to perform these daily chiminage rituals because their original ways of life have been destroyed so thoroughly that actually living in the old way is no longer even possible. Their totems both recognize this, and no longer demand those daily rituals. Of course with no knowledge of any Native American society, I don't have a clue what those obligations would be, but I'm not an ST so I don't need specific details. Or perhaps Wendigo kinfolk were even more afraid of their Garou relatives than was normal, because of the whole Cannibal Spirit thing. In the modern era, cannibalism hasn't become acceptable but the old stories about the taboos and what happens to cannibals are no longer told as much.
The Croatan are described as being so stubborn that it sometimes became almost pathological. I wonder if their weakness should be that when they join Turtle's brood, they are imbued with some of Turtle's stubbornness, on top of whatever they had before. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.

**Erinys** · 08-10-2020, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post

also because, by their nature, they subvert the garou’s connection you Wolf as their ‘Animal Father’, straying from the way of The First Pack.

This is another reason I wanted to include them. The Garou turned away from Wolf, somehow, for some reason. There's a consequence for that.

Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post

I’m personally of the opinion that if we are distinguishing between spiritual and social flaws, which is a good idea I think, we should be careful that all tribes have both a spiritual and social flaw, even if the latter is naturally circumstantial.

Can I ask why you think this?

**Gryffon15** · 08-11-2020, 12:00 AM

I think it’s useful for a number of reasons but I think these three summarize it fairly well:

•The first reason is that, imo, a spiritual obligation or ban or consequence should be the primary form that the weakness takes and the only one that is necessarily intrinsic to the Garou and will constantly follow her membership in her tribe - barring a radical shift in either the tribe, its totem, or both

•My second reason is that the tribal culture and its history, connection to humanity, and interactions would lead to social weaknesses that are inherent not to this spirit but to the surrounding culture. This is also because some tribes obviously have social weaknesses and finding methods for all tribes to have such weaknesses highlight the flaws in every tribe and sone of the reasons that have the unique difficulties that they do

•My third reason comes down to something a bit meta and setting focused, that the social weaknesses (alongside the natural spiritual weaknesses) help to explain why Garou tribes often have such difficulty getting along with each other. These difficulties can be overcome or avoided in-play or depending upon character and as social constructs they can be altered, particularly in the modern age where multi-tribalism becomes so important, these weaknesses both provide a part of the explanation for why tribal divides did become so defined as well as giving characters a mechanical goal in overcoming those social weaknesses for their character and/or their relationship with other characters

**Gryffon15** · 08-11-2020, 12:20 AM

Also as to specific flaws...

•Black Furies
-I hadn’t thought of that for the Furies, but now that you mention it, I think that the need to avenge the wronged would work very well for them. Something like, ‘when the Fury encounters evidence of a great crime - according to her own judgement - she must make a willpower check to resist taking an action in the scene to avenge the victim(s)’. I understand that’s definitely not polished, but I think it has potential.

•Red Talons & Glass Walkers
-I agree that the Glass Walker and Red Talon spiritual weaknesses, while they do limit them, don’t necessarily always cone up. This is why I’m also tempted to say they would have increased difficulties to work with the spirit courts of the other side, non-urban naturae for GW and all artificial spirits for RT.

•The Pure Brothers
-I would actually say, at least in the case of Younger Brother and probably Older Brother as well, one of their hurdles is that they do try to keep their rituals alive, but struggle to do so because of lack of access to their sacred land and the people who would be so important for joining in those rites. I’d definitely say that part of their social weakness is their struggles both to keep alive their cultures and traditions while also walking the line between adaption and assimilation; not to mention the struggle to avoid having traditions appropriated and used improperly in such a way as to actually generate spiritual strife. Of course I would not feel at all capable of writing something like this, you’d want an actual indigenous person with experience in these fields for going into details and elaborating, but that’s the general idea that occurs to me. I also think that Middle Brother being stubborn would make a lot of sense, particularly given the earth motif.

Also, a tangent that my third point reminded me of, if you’ll indulge me:

The introductory comic of the first edition tribe book for Younger Brother tells the story about part of the reason why the Pure Lands are in so much danger today. The stories explains that once, certain tribes of the north, knew of a horrible monster that resembled a human child. The monster was a dark and diseased thing that if taken into a community would consume everything and curse the community, fostering cannibalism and strife.

Because so many of the old ways have been forgotten or ignored and outsiders ignorant of the land and it’s ways are everywhere, the monster was not recognized and was taken in by a human community.

By the time a pack of Younger Brother’s Children has discovered the plight, it was almost entirely too late. The monster had slain several people and had generated enough taint to begin the creation of a blight. The pack had to act swiftly.

They invoked the monster’s name and the pack’s crescent and gibbous moons recalled the stories of the creature so that the pack would be armed to combat it. They battled it and destroyed the engorged monster and cleansed the site, saving the area just in time.

They were triumphant but still grim. They could not celebrate for very long at all. They left the bodies for human authorities to deal with and began traveling again. They knew at that very moment, ignorant people somewhere were leaving themselves and the land open to the corruption of banes and monsters.

Only they knew how to fight back now and so they did.

Yet everyday there are more of the ignorant and fewer of them - soon the day may come when their is only ignorance.

This will be the cause of the Apocalypse.

**Erinys** · 08-12-2020, 04:46 PM

So here's my second draft. Please let me know what you think mechanically as far as these being balanced with each other and relevant in play. I gave the Glass Walkers and Red Talons both Gnosis and spirit problems, because they probably won't interact often with spirits they don't care for.

Black Furies: The Black Furies are charged with avenging the worst crimes against women and Gaia.When a Fury encounters evidence of a great crime (rape, child molesting, extreme child abuse, matricide, great desecration of Gaia) she must make a Willpower check to resist taking an action that scene or the next scene to avenge the victim(s). Mules may also react this way to those who especially abuse mule Garou.
Bone Gnawers, Wangtong: Bone Gnawers suffer prejudice and contempt for their class (or perceived class), and are generally seen as lazy, stupid, and dirty regardless of their actual merits. They have –2 dice in social interaction with anyone not in poverty, except spirits. They can gain Resources dots, if they gain an income that warrants it, but few employers want to hire a “lazy bum”.
Children of Gaia: Reduced Delirium effect, due to less violence in the Impergium.
Croatan/Middle Brother: Croatan who complete their Rite of Passage inherit the inflexible stubbornness of the Turtle. A Croatan must fail acontested Willpower challenge to change their mind once firmly decided.
Fianna: Each Fianna must perform at least one Minor Rite per day, and the Prayer for the Prey after every successful hunt, but gains no mechanical benefits from doing so. If a packmate performs a Minor Rite, the Fianna must join in. Failure somewhat offends Stag’s brood until they perform a Rite of Contrition.
Get of Fenris: Fenris’ Ban: lose temporary Renown (3 glory, 1 honor) for cowardice, retreat from battle, fox frenzy, or refusing a challenge.
Glasswalkers, Boli Zousizhe, Hakken, Iron Riders: These two tribes have become unnaturally imbalanced, losing touch with their wolf side. They suffer +1 difficulty on any interaction with rural spirits and garou, naturae, and natural elementals. Interaction includes rituals, Gift use, and predicting or understanding them. They also suffer +1 effects on the Curse table with lupus kinfolk and wild animals; and +1 difficulty regaining Gnosis in rural places.
Hakken (pre-modern) : a geas or ban of Naru-Kami?
Tetrasomian, City Warders, Warders of Men: ?
Red Talons, Kucha Ekundu (modern): The Red Talons’ total loss of human connection and blood is unnatural and imbalanced, despite their claims. They suffer +1 difficulty on any interaction with urban and artificial spirits, homid and urban shapeshifters, and spirits of tame animals and plants. Interaction includes rituals, Gift use, and predicting or understanding them. They also suffer +1 effects on the Curse table with homid kinfolk and tame animals; and +1 difficulty regaining Gnosis in non-rural places.
Red Talons (ancient): a weaker version of Ratkin Gnosis rapture in the wilderness? but what would explain this going away?
Shadow Lords: Nobody trusts a Shadow Lord. No matter their own personal behavior, Shadow Lords are distrusted by members of other tribes outside their own pack: they have –2 dice in social interaction with other tribes in a modern multi-tribal sept.
In a sept with only Shadow Lords, they instead have the canon Failure’s Dagger: ???
Siberakh: give them the canon Younger Brother’s weakness?
Silent Striders: All Silent Striders suffer the Curse of Sutekh: they cannot rest or regain Gnosis within the old boundaries of Khem, and become restless if they remain in one place for too long. Also, when a Strider botches while stepping sideways he attracts ghosts. This only occurs up to once per session, and need not happen immediately after the botch.
Silent Striders (ancient) : ? Perhaps social ritual obligations
Silver Fangs: Luna’s Curse of Madness falls upon all Silver Fangs for their turning away from Luna and towards Helios. Each has a minor derangement. It doesn’t have to come up in a crippling way every session, or can go away during their auspice moon. Only a King who reigns more than 7 years suffers a full derangement. This may be gradually getting worse over the millennia.
Stargazers: Chimera’s Ban: lose temporary Renown (3 wisdom) when you frenzy; and pay 1 more freebie point or XP per dot of Rage.
Older Brother and Younger Brother (colonized): Like their homid Kinfolk, these Garou suffer all the problems of being the targets of white supremacist racism; or Japanese racism in the case of the Ainu. Discrimination, contempt, dehumanizing stereotypes, poverty, violence, kidnapped and murdered relatives, and the destruction of their cultures hurts them throughout life in ways the Wyrmcomer Garou cannot imagine.
Older Brother (pre-colonial): ?
Younger Brother (pre-colonial): Distrusted in certain situations (by Kinfolk and other tribes) due to cannibal totem: –2 dice on social rolls in ??? situations (incl. winter, famine times).
White Howlers: ?

Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

Stag is the Prince of the Forest and all about maintaining the cycle of life between predator and prey. I think that is more important than any connection to the fae. Tribal culture is also filled with cultural heroes of the Garou and obedience and celebration to tradition (thought not as hidebound as the Silver Fangs). They also don't have any normal mechanical disadvantages or restricted backgrounds like some tribes. Maybe something like they have to perform at least one Minor Rite once a day, but they never gain any mechanical benefits from doing so (for any minor rite)? And maybe if they have a pack of sept mate who performs a minor rite in their presence they have to join in (since Stag likes these minor rites, especially Hunting Prayer and Prayer for the Prey)?

I'm attempting to use this.

Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post

•Children of Gaia
-Spiritual: I definitely think that there Delirium weakness works well
-Social: My first thought is a raised difficulty when attempting to mediate disputes until the CoG can prove to the aggravated parties, on those parties terms, that they understand why the dispute is occurring

•Fianna
-Spiritual: I agree that the stereotype isn’t great but I think that the typical weakness could work if it focused more on the idea that Fianna are susceptible to heights of passion for all of their passions, good and ill. Another route might just go for the Stag fertility angle and have the difficulty of resisting romantic or sexual advances be increased for a Fianna.
-Social: The Fianna do pretty well amongst the Garou socially, but I could see a raised difficulty on the Fianna’s part to resist braggadocio or perhaps a raised difficulty to resist fighting their kinfolk’s battles - whatever those battles may be

Where can I find the specific wording of the canon Tribal weaknesses (for CoG, Fianna, and Shadow Lords) ? I thought I had a url of a thread that had them, but now I can't find it.

Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post

•The Pure Brothers
-I would actually say, at least in the case of Younger Brother and probably Older Brother as well, one of their hurdles is that they do try to keep their rituals alive, but struggle to do so because of lack of access to their sacred land and the people who would be so important for joining in those rites. I’d definitely say that part of their social weakness is their struggles both to keep alive their cultures and traditions while also walking the line between adaption and assimilation; not to mention the struggle to avoid having traditions appropriated and used improperly in such a way as to actually generate spiritual strife. Of course I would not feel at all capable of writing something like this, you’d want an actual indigenous person with experience in these fields for going into details and elaborating, but that’s the general idea that occurs to me. I also think that Middle Brother being stubborn would make a lot of sense, particularly given the earth motif.

I think that's part of having one's culture systematically destroyed by white supremacists.

Edit: I found this: https://web.archive.org/web/20040127...374/page1.html
Most of it is more in line with what you were suggesting, Black Fox. I really like their Fenrir and Wendigo concepts, though, and I'm considering replacing my Stargazers concept with theirs. Also, all the rites are neat even if they're made optional.

Edit 2: I think I could give pre-modern Hakken a geas from Naru-Kami (their tribal totem) that they must perform the listed Shadow Lord rite in every storm, even a typhoon. This wouldn't be a Shadow Lord rite at all, then. When they left Naru-Kami to embrace Grandfather Thunder, they no longer had to do this. What should be the penalty for missing the rite?

**Damian May** · 08-12-2020, 11:58 PM

I wasn't aware that anyone used them. Certainly no one I've played with in RL over the last 25 years.. Weren't they dropped after 2nd Ed.

**Gryffon15** · 08-13-2020, 02:58 PM

As far as specific wording on the tribal flaws, I believe that the first/second edition Player’s Guide and/or Storyteller’s Guide had them.

**Erinys** · 08-14-2020, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post

As far as specific wording on the tribal flaws, I believe that the first/second edition Player’s Guide and/or Storyteller’s Guide had them.

I mean what are they? You referenced the canon Fianna flaw and I don't even know what it is. And what does Failure's Dagger actually do? I have forgotten it. And how many "points" does the canon CoG flaw shift witnesses on the Delirium chart?

And what do you think of my new draft, and the ideas I linked to?

**Gryffon15** · 08-16-2020, 02:15 PM

Ahh, my bad, let me clarify!

Now these are all my recollections so don’t expect RAW perfect recall but...

The Fianna weakness was that they have increased difficulty to resist temptation and opportunities for physical/sensual indulgence.

The Shadow Lord weakness was that they lose an additional honor renown any time they visibly fail at a task, especially if the failure becomes known to the tribe.

I believe that the Child of Gaia weaknesses raises the delirium chart by anywhere between 2-5 ticks, but I don’t recall the exact number.

Announcement

Replacing/Revising Tribal Weaknesses

Replacing/Revising Tribal Weaknesses

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