Question for the Wyrm and its servants

[Erinys]

The story goes that the Wyrm was captured in the Weaver's webs and squeezed until it broke. It's suffering, and needs to break free. But, all of the Wyrm's efforts seem to be focused on killing Gaia and the Wyld, not hurting the Weaver. This seems strange to me.

Of course the Wyrm is "insane" and broken, and it is lashing out in pain and rage rather than making rational, calculated considerations of how to make the pain stop. And I get that many of its servants are also insane, or too self-serving to really care about freeing the Wyrm, or can't see the forest for the trees. I also can't imagine any of the Wyrm's servants actually care if Gaia or the Wyld are hurt or destroyed along the way to freeing the Wyrm. And of course the meta-reason is that the Wyrm is the main antagonist, so it has to attack the Gaian PCs.

But I am wondering why none of the Wyrm's servants, none of the heads of the hydra so to speak, are engaged in attacking the Weaver. While the Weaver is busy using and abusing the Wyrm as a tool for its own ends, why isn't any part of the Wyrm fighting back against its actual tormentor?


I am starting to wonder what it would look like for a camp of Black Spiral Dancers to focus on freeing the Wyrm from the Weaver, by actually attacking the Weaver and her webs, instead of starting fights with Gaians or the Wyld's servants. BSDs who are still cruel and immoral in all the usual ways, but who really don't care about killing Gaia or what happens to Her, as long as they can break the Weaver's hold. They would hate Gaian shifters and attack them if they had a good opportunity and odds, but not go out of their way to hurt them. They wouldn't care if pollution and mass extinction are destroying Gaia and weakening the Wyld, and they wouldn't be champions of the Balance Wyrm, but they wouldn't waste their time helping polluting corporations that represent the Weaver's increasing grip on the Wyrm.

[Gryffon15]

My understanding has always been that primary reason that the Fallen Wyrm acted the way it does, to the limited ability it is capable of planning, was because it’s plan was ultimately undermine the pattern of reality to such a degree via its corruption that - ‘the center cannot hold’ - and all of reality would slim into Entropy which would destroy everything and therefore the Weaver - freeing the Wyrm and allowing it to luxuriate in an eternal nothing for the rest of time (which would also shortly cease to exist in any meaningful fashion).

Therefore while the Wyrm’s primary and most apocalyptic objective is to destroy the world because the nature of the trust is a single-minded obsession with their purpose and when all you have is an Entropy-Hammer, then all your problems look like “Destroy-Me”-Nails. This, to further torture my metaphor, became worse when the Wyrm’s took of choice was replaced by three sets of Corruption-Hammers.

However just because the Wyrm is taking what it views as the simplest and most direct line between points A and B does not mean all of its agents or aspects have to, you are entirely correct.

From a spiritual or meta-cosmological perspective, if the Weaver was weakened to a sufficient degree that it was no longer so capable of restraining the Wyrm from fulfilling its purpose, it’s possible that through the plying of the Celestines, Changing Breeds, and/or Humanity; the fallen triat could be returned to its Balanced state.

This, in all likelihood, is the best case scenario for life as we know it to improve and generally go well.

Many heads of the Wyrm and their agents via corruption are harming the Weaver, but the Wyrm in its current state is incapable of an intelligent attack against the Weaver so it (and its more simple minded agents) simply attacks wildly, harming Gaia and therefore indirectly undermining the Weaver’s oh-so-important Pattern.

I think the idea of agents and aspects that are specifically attacking the Weaver (and its agents and aspects) makes a lot of sense and perhaps sub-textually is already presented to a degree. Agents of the Wyrm generally prefer to foster corruption so that their more organized agents such as Wyrm-Corporations ultimately create more corruption then order, in a twisted sort of cost-benefit ratio. Of course as Blights and Pentex show, not all agents follow the party line in that regard so carefully.

While agents of and proponents of the Balance Wyrm such as its remaining banes and certain Ananasi have proposed attacks against the Weaver for a long time, I could definitely see there being note of a place for Wyrm agents, aspects, formor, and BSD camps dedicated to undermining and/or combatting the Weaver.

Honestly the view of the state of affairs under the fallen triat as a three-way cosmic war with Gaia and Her children caught in the middle has always felt more accurate to me then the simplistic Good-Evil that some Garou promote with their idea of the battle as Gaia vs. The Wyrm.

[Black Fox]

Personally, that is not something I take as actually true in my chronicles. I just think it is a story the Garou tell themselves to explain the philosophical Problem of Evil. It's a Just-So story.

So it is not something I worry about it in the chronicles I run, except insofar as NPC Garou take it seriously in their approach to their enemies (or certain Wyrm minions like the BSDs who also hold that).

[heinrich]

While I agree that the Wyrm uses Corruption to tip the scales to a point where the world simply destroys itself and therefore ends the Wyrms missery in captivity, I also agree with Black Fox that it doesn't play a role in my chronicles. I like my plots more grounded.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Accelerationism

[CTPhipps]

The Wyrm used to be Balance and now it's Entropy.

Or so the Garou say.

Mages say that it was always Entropy.

My view is that Garou are overly focused on the fate of a single planet in a single solar system.

[Konradleijon]

Actually I think Wyrm does attack the weaver.

[Black Fox]

My view is that Garou are overly focused on the fate of a single planet in a single solar system.

Well, to be honest, that's where they keep all their stuff.

[CTPhipps]

Well, to be honest, that's where they keep all their stuff.

Yep but they have a somewhat exaggerated sense of their own importance, being nothing more than one Celestine's antibodies.

[Eldagusto]

Consciousness is a pattern and thus in the weavers purview, but still mostly in the big picture macro verse sort of way. The Wyrm is driven to madness and isn’t made for human level consciousness, that is what it’s lesser emanations are for, but they aren’t cohesive and friendly enough to ally in an efficient way. If they were more coherent Pentex would have even more resources then they already have.

[Gryffon15]

I mean I would argue that the Garou care so much about Earth because that’s where the life is and from the humanist view of the WoD, what’s going on in other cosmos ultimately doesn’t have much to do with reality as far as we humans actively interact with it. Are the triat cosmic forces that should effect everything? Yeah, but earth is where all the life the game cares about is so tying everything into the humanist perspective there makes sense for me. Ultimately, reality outside of human understanding isn’t something that’s going to effect human life in any meaningful way aside from being an impersonal force of the universe.

That’s ultimately just my take though.

As far as the Wyrm and it’s evolution, I’ve always thought it made more sense to say that the Balance Triat was the original form because it’s members were in balance with one another so as to allow for the propagation of life (Gaia)


The Wyrm has always been Entropy, but as the Balance Wyrm its entropy was in Balance with the Creation and Pattern of the other triat members. The reason why the Fallen Wyrm is a problem is that it’s generating far more Entropy then it should and it actively fostering Corruption so as to free itself from its bondage and suffering; Universe, Balance, and Life be damned.

[Erinys]

Considering that the Wyld is also the Weaver's enemy, constantly attacking it is counterproductive. I would think at least some Black Spiral Dancers would be smart enough to realize that.

What would an anti-Weaver camp of Black Spiral Dancers look like? What would they call themselves?

[Gryffon15]

Perhaps, although the less raw matter that the Wyld can generate means that the Weaver has fewer materials to work with and the further the Wyld falls the more and more destructive it could become, further enriching the cause of the Wyrm.

As far as camps though I can see stuff like ‘The Pattern Snarlers’ or ‘The Prison Breakers’ or simply ‘The Destroyers’ working; but those are all just random bits of aspiration.