caern totem of griffin and homids controlling sept

[Black Fox]

I am working on a concept and need some feedback. (In case it matters, this is not for the PCs home base, but a background in the chronicle so OOC considerations for players isn't needed.) I'm creating a site where the Red Talons once had a caern whose totem was Griffin. It was an exclusive lupus sept. At one point, the entire sept was wiped out. Caern had fallen (but not lost to the Wyrm, it just fell into dormancy without the caern moots). Human town eventually grew over it. But because the caern was known and dormant caerns can be brought back without too much effort (at least those dormant "only" by several centuries). So now I am looking at what the new sept and caern would be like.

Normally I'd think it's be Glass Walkers who'd take such a caern over. But if the caern totem was Griffin, then it might lead to trouble as Griffin does not accept homids. So would another tribe work best since the Glass Walkers tend to be exact opposite of what Griffin wants? Or would any homids in the sept bring trouble so tribe is immaterial? (And since the old caern is now totally within a town, it's practically impossible for a sept to have lupus members).

But then I remember the Central Park caern, and when that caern was close to dying that essentially the caern gained a second totem/caern heart with Mouse, and that the original totem (Mera) was relegated to second place status. So I wonder if reclaiming a dormant caern might just result in a new caern totem spirit because the old one either perished or wandered off. In which case, it wouldn't matter what tribe(s) renew the caern as it'd have a different totem and possibly a new purpose as the spiritual energies are subtly redirected.

Other possibility would be for Griffin to lay a sort of spirit curse on the sept as a result of fundamental disagreements between the sept membership and itself, but still have the caern operational (but heavily dysfunctional). That kind of thing tends to happen when Garou are at discord with spirits. That could prove interesting as well.

How do you think the scenario should play out?

Again, this is just a background element, so I need not be concerned with accommodating PCs at their home sept. I am looking for logical consequences of how this plays out. Thanks.

[Eldagusto]

I would have it they at least need a nonhomid Leadership if not have it considered a nonhomid Sept. This doesn't mean you need local Lupus, Metis also Work. But with the peculiarities of the Caern the Garou Nation could have agreed that this Caern needs to be involate and that could mean donating non Homid members from other septs, it could be interesting to have such a Lupus/Metis Caern in an Urban landscape.

[Black Fox]

Thanks for your response, but I won't be able to use it for my purposes. Just to be clear, I am not working in a creative vacuum. The scenario I am talking about is based on actual folklore, legend, and history of a real place. I liked it and thought I could create interesting setting lore. So I need things to fit certain facts.

I don't believe your suggestion will work in this scenario. There aren't any local lupus or metis around to arrive and restart the sept. And even if an out of area pack could be created and move there, they have no way of perpetuating the sept. They could only delay the problem. So it has to be homids. Nor is this particular caern important enough that the "Garou Nation" would even bother to discuss it. This is strictly a local matter that only local or regional Garou would be involve in. This won't attract the involvement of any Silver Fang kings, nor will any concolations be held for it. At best, this would be incidental business brought to their attention, and I imagine they'd only give advice or indirect support to local Garou trying to solve the problem.

I'm imagining it's just a case of a pack of homid Garou remembering there used to be a caern on the spot, and taking it upon themselves to restart things (since its generally good to bring caerns back up) and then dealing with the consequences as best they can. So I see it as either homids dealing with a hostile spirit, or somehow a second totem arriving and replacing Griffin after the caern is restarted.

Strangely while the game gives us details on Garou reclaiming a corrupted caern (in 2nd Player's Guide), I can't find any details on restarting a dormant caern. Otherwise I'd just improvise base on those guidelines.

[Lian]

There's a rite in.. rage across the world 20 that is basically totem rite for a caern perhaps you could apply that? I mean I can't imagine griffin being able to hold inside an urban caern.

[Damian May]

If you have a clever Theurge you could probably game Griffin on the exact terms of his Ban......

Followers of Griffin cannot associate with humans.

Well....are Kinfolk truly human? Most would say yes..but a truly gifted Garou may convincingly argue otherwise. Are the members of a Sept "Followers"....or does that only apply to those who bind themselves in a pack with one of his shards? And surely he agrees that a Pack is not a Sept? Surely he would be pleased if the Sept dedicates itself to sheltering endangered species and driving humans back from the Bawn and Protectorate...

[Black Fox]

If you have a clever Theurge you could probably game Griffin on the exact terms of his Ban......[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

Thanks for your creativity and contribution, but I won't be going down this route. Griffin's ban is more than pack followers cannot associate with humans. He won't accept a pack with any homid Garou. And of course his tribe also does not have any homid Garou either. So if he doesn't tolerate homid Garou he certainly doesn't want human kinfolk to be involved with him in any case. This is something more than just needing some creative arguments to fool Griffin.

I am not looking for a "solution" in the sense of having homid Garou be in a sept with Griffin as a caern totem and all coexist happily. I'm not interested in a snowflake situation like that. I just want to brainstorm through some options of how this is going to play out. The inherent tension in the scenario was what attracted my attention so I want to treat it seriously.

One option is failure - the attempt to recover the caern just fails because Griffin as totem is incompatible with homid Garou being the sept. In that case, what ends up happening? Garou know there was a caern there, but it is unrecoverable. Do they just give up? Would this be a long term process of Garou attempting various solutions that all fail over time before finally moving on? Might this become something Red Talon septs in wilderness areas might send their cubs on in a Rite of Passage, or rare packs to an urban environment in order to learn how to survive in a city or interact with mankind to learn about the enemy? Something they might do because they want to honor their tribal totem and think he may watch over them in this hostile environment?

Another option I mentioned earlier, the sept somehow exists but under enormous difficulties, probably because of curses and negative effects of the caern totem because of the sept's inability to satisfy it. If so, how long would such a sept last in practical terms before too many move out for greener pastures? Are there any tribes more likely to tough it out and attempt to make it work like the Children of Gaia or Black Furies (keeping in mind this is still in a small city environment)?

A third option is what happened in New York's Central Park caern, when the Garou revive the caern as part of their attempt they bring in a new caern totem, and the caern has two totems. One the sept can handle, and the other ends up being a problem. But the sept at least becomes functional. What happens? Does Griffin eventually fade as the second, extraneous totem? How would it react as a secondary totem? What kind of totem could conceivably work knowing it must be something that can handle a Griffin spirit as partner and possible rival?

Fourth option is that a new spirit just completely displaces the Griffin spirit who presumably moves elsewhere. Is this ever mentioned in any of the books? I know when BSDs corrupt caerns that they bring in a new totem on purpose that displaces the spirit. So new spirits can conceivably take over. I just don't know if there's ever been a canonical example of that in a Gaian caern I can use as inspiration/precedent.

While I am not looking at some contributions made in this thread and won't repeat them here, I will see that they may work for other STs and other scenarios. So in so far someone else may find them useful, thanks for them.

Or any other new ideas?

[Lian]

Fourth option is that a new spirit just completely displaces the Griffin spirit who presumably moves elsewhere. Is this ever mentioned in any of the books? I know when BSDs corrupt caerns that they bring in a new totem on purpose that displaces the spirit. So new spirits can conceivably take over. I just don't know if there's ever been a canonical example of that in a Gaian caern I can use as inspiration/precedent.

There is litterally a rite for this in Rage across the world 20.


The short of it is they perform an extensive sacrifice to the Spirit then have a champion perform a great act in the spirit's name. For example The champion might fight a captured bane as part of wooing a totem of war.

[Black Fox]

I don't have Rage Across the World W20, but thanks for that information.

[Lian]

I don't have Rage Across the World W20, but thanks for that information.

Its a VERY gameable plot wether on a larp or tabletop scale.