Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

[Newb95]

I mean, even if you like Forsaken more there is still a pretty obvious problem in them turning Apocalypse into a Forsaken clone. Namely, if it is just a clone of another property they already own what even is its point in existing? The products need to be different from one another to justify them having a reason to exist.

It won't turn into a forsaken clone, they will just take a few elements and implement them badly like they did with V5, I couldn't care less about splat wars and I hope that werewolf will turn fine since it will ultimately be good for the whole WoD when a property is successful but to be honest, he has a point, werewolf was always the underachiever of WoD, people simply didn't like it like vampire and mage, I don't know why but I think that the fact that combat takes a front seat in a system that notoriously does combat bad and a lore that basically makes garous as unsympathetic as possible even when compared to the fucking vampires, probably were factors in this, the discrepancy between the lore power level and the game mechanics also contributed to piss a sizeable part of the fanbase off since werewolves are way thougher than the lore would suggest simply because of the busted mechanics and a few "I win" gifts which are never referenced in lore so a lot of players are wondering why the garous always get their asses kicked in lore when, by all accounts, they should be able to steamroll everything in the WoD.

[Asmodai]

It won't turn into a forsaken clone, they will just take a few elements and implement them badly like they did with V5, I couldn't care less about splat wars and I hope that werewolf will turn fine since it will ultimately be good for the whole WoD when a property is successful but to be honest, he has a point, werewolf was always the underachiever of WoD, people simply didn't like it like vampire and mage, I don't know why but I think that the fact that combat takes a front seat in a system that notoriously does combat bad and a lore that basically makes garous as unsympathetic as possible even when compared to the fucking vampires, probably were factors in this, the discrepancy between the lore power level and the game mechanics also contributed to piss a sizeable part of the fanbase off since werewolves are way thougher than the lore would suggest simply because of the busted mechanics and a few "I win" gifts which are never referenced in lore so a lot of players are wondering why the garous always get their asses kicked in lore when, by all accounts, they should be able to steamroll everything in the WoD.

Honestly it's all fine within the context of Werewolf. It's when crossovers come in that you get problems, and they were never really the point. Werewolf stands quite well on its own, and the protagonists are quite sympatethic. Deeply flawed, prone to idiocy and with a history of fuckups, but still with a silver lining, a dash of hope and a can do attitude. Not seeing the Garou as the least beat sympathethic is usually down to preconceptions and stereotypes and not the actual books - especially of the Revised period.

Sadly, people still seem to be focused on the least charitable interpretation of pure breed, kinfolk, metis, Nazi Get and the Native Tribes. But there is still a great game there, and funnily it even resolved most of the worst things within the context of itself.

Due to a lack of critical reading and memetic ascension of how horribad Werewolf is, we are now having this thread with Parodox redefining the game.

[Newb95]

Honestly it's all fine within the context of Werewolf. It's when crossovers come in that you get problems, and they were never really the point. Werewolf stands quite well on its own, and the protagonists are quite sympatethic. Deeply flawed, prone to idiocy and with a history of fuckups, but still with a silver lining, a dash of hope and a can do attitude. Not seeing the Garou as the least beat sympathethic is usually down to preconceptions and stereotypes and not the actual books - especially of the Revised period.

Sadly, people still seem to be focused on the least charitable interpretation of pure breed, kinfolk, metis, Nazi Get and the Native Tribes. But there is still a great game there, and funnily it even resolved most of the worst things within the context of itself.

Due to a lack of critical reading and memetic ascension of how horribad Werewolf is, we are now having this thread with Parodox redefining the game.

Lack of sympathy isn't just due to the edgy stuff like the nazi werewolves,metis and whatnot, vampire was chock full of it since it was just the 90's, the lack of sympathy also comes from the garous being a bunch of fucking morons, like seriously how are you supposed to symphatize with someone so pathetically and unapologetically stupid? Take a look at the sects and factions of vampire and mage, they are also flawed but they still present a smart facade and a sense of purpose for everything they do, hell even the sabbath had a better organisation and more cunning compared to the tribes meanwhile you have garous fighting among eachother and engaging in all kinds of atrocities for the most stupid reasons, the War of Rage for example was probably peak garou idiocy and something that sealed their fate.

[Asmodai]

...the War of Rage for example was probably peak garou idiocy and something that sealed their fate.

Seriously. That again? after 6000 years you are literally going to harp on that again? Even with the fact that over the last 30 years the Werewolves have:

• brought back Bat and are on the way to bring back Camatotz
• have changed from wolves to prarie dogs to better understand the Mokole and find a a way to live with others
• found a rapport with the Balam and Mokole to fight in the Amazon
• united with the Bubasti and the Mokole to take back Egypt
• joined with the Ahadi
• never left the Hengyokai
• are undertaking multiple umbral quests to find the lost breeds and tribes, learning from their mistakes (Past Lives/Shattered Dreams)

As for werewolves being stupid, they're stupid and tribal in the same way humans are. They are US and a way to realise WE are the ones that need to change, not just them.

[Lashet]

Seriously. That again? after 6000 years you are literally going to harp on that again? Even with the fact that over the last 30 years the Werewolves have:

• brought back Bat and are on the way to bring back Camatotz
• have changed from wolves to prarie dogs to better understand the Mokole and find a a way to live with others
• found a rapport with the Balam and Mokole to fight in the Amazon
• united with the Bubasti and the Mokole to take back Egypt
• joined with the Ahadi
• never left the Hengyokai
• are undertaking multiple umbral quests to find the lost breeds and tribes, learning from their mistakes (Past Lives/Shattered Dreams)

As for werewolves being stupid, they're stupid and tribal in the same way humans are. They are US and a way to realise WE are the ones that need to change, not just them.

Too late, too little. That's why I personaly care so much about Garou been at least as powerfull as vampires. Couse werewolves are NOT GoodGus, despite they think aboit themselves. So, it's only 'might is right'.

[Asmodai]

Too late, too little. That's why I personaly care so much about Garou been at least as powerfull as vampires. Couse werewolves are NOT GoodGus, despite they think aboit themselves. So, it's only 'might is righ'.

Guess we can throw away humanity too, then. Since the moment we murdered all the other hominds our history is one of fuckups,murder and depravity. We have fucked each other over for greed, pride, flags and simple xenophobia. Yet, we can do good things and can be kind and good to each and strive for a better world. Eventually we can learn to be better, and hopefully we will. Looking at the deeds of the Garou in their final days they may have learned more from their errors than we have.

To summarize...

Ernest Hemingway once wrote, "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

[Lashet]

Guess we can throw away humanity too, then. Since the moment we murdered all the other hominds our history is one of fuckups,murder and depravity. We have fucked each other over for greed, pride, flags and simple xenophobia. Yet, we can do good things and can be kind and good to each and strive for a better world.

...or we can finally understand who we are and learn how to take pleasure from the former.
Well, we can't it IRL. But in the fictional setting we probably want to take... not the kindest characters, but at least less hypocrite. What I like about WtF - among other stuff - is a bit downgraded heroic pathos.

For Forsaken: Nope, with all our culture we are not heroes. Not human heroes at least. World is a dark and shitty place, cuz it is its natural condition. And we are shit, too (altough we did only ONE metaphysical mistake). We gonna kill, burn, pillage, sometimes cannibalaze, rape torture and perform human sacriface. Sometimes we will do it just for sake of our mental health (cuz that's how it work). If anything, our spice can make world worst for humankind (thanks to our insane cousins). But, the alternative is much, much worse. So welkome to the pack, buddy))

And Garou... hell, in terms of GoT/ASOIAF, they did to much Ramsay or the Mountain shit to pretend to be NedStarks. After all, being Ramsay Bolton has its benifits)) Altough, for Garou... for all their fuck ups... they deserved only to be Reeks. For vampires, for example.

[Asmodai]

I... don't think I understand your metaphors or your hate boner for WtA.

WtF is WtF, WtA is WtA. Vampires are irrelevant for WtA, So is Game of Thrones.

Why are you so surprised that someone likes WtA for being WtA? That's the reason we have this thread in the first place.

[monteparnas]

This doesn't feel accurate as an assessment though. Paradox making the WoD even easier to access for indie video game developers is a much more recent change in how they've been operating from the open submission process they've been using previously.

Actually not, their previous process was already marketed towards indie developers, that's how I got my copy of the guide. It was only a more traditional license process, but the core strategy towards game developers was the same.

But indeed the new "very punk" strategy is quite recent and we're yet to see if it will pay off.

I don't see how. Up until now, you're phrasing has come across strongly that Paradox doesn't hold any accountability for what's happened with Swansong and Bloodhunt.

Oh, got it now!

Sorry for the misunderstanding. That was not my intention. They have complete accountability.

If the broader point is, "Paradox is managing their brand very poorly," it doesn't really matter who made a specific decision.

For me it matters because it informs how the broader strategy leads to a given decision, so it answers the question "why they did X". Then again, I'll rest the case to contemplate it, you may be completely right.

But we can say that, because there was a significant difference in the process

In the limited context of the phrasing, I disagree, but this is too minor a matter. If the comparison didn't worked, it didn't worked. And I do think the above mentioned difference between what I meant and what you got across from my wording does make a huge difference in this regard.

Marvel/Disney try their hardest to utterly ignore all four of the old Fantastic Four movies.

As far as I can tell, Sony does, too. Indeed, ignoring the 2005 movie seems like a very healthy thing to do.

And on top of the cost of the IPs, they're all sorts of other costs they had to/chose to put into the brand to start enacting their strategies for it. They had to hire people, they had to pay for development, and so on. There's even more money invested in their acquisition than the price they paid CCP that they need to recoup.

Yup.

For the sake of financial calculations, that's where net revenue matters. The numbers I gave aren't just what they have to earn each year, but what they have to earn above any additional cost. And then you have taxes, salaries, marketing, a lot of possible costs that may very well eat up their net revenue to pennies, or make for negative revenue.

This is specially probable in the first years, which is a problem as the discounted calculation means the numbers have greater impact in the first year. The more it takes for the money to roll in, the more the project was a bad idea.

[Lashet]

I... don't think I understand your metaphors or your hate boner for WtA.

WtF is WtF, WtA is WtA. Vampires are irrelevant for WtA, So is Game of Thrones.

Why are you so surprised that someone likes WtA for being WtA? That's the reason we have this thread in the first place.

I can't get what is good about Garou? They are not good guys, and they are too week as a spice to ise right of the power.

[Newb95]

Seriously. That again? after 6000 years you are literally going to harp on that again? Even with the fact that over the last 30 years the Werewolves have:

• brought back Bat and are on the way to bring back Camatotz
• have changed from wolves to prarie dogs to better understand the Mokole and find a a way to live with others
• found a rapport with the Balam and Mokole to fight in the Amazon
• united with the Bubasti and the Mokole to take back Egypt
• joined with the Ahadi
• never left the Hengyokai
• are undertaking multiple umbral quests to find the lost breeds and tribes, learning from their mistakes (Past Lives/Shattered Dreams)

As for werewolves being stupid, they're stupid and tribal in the same way humans are. They are US and a way to realise WE are the ones that need to change, not just them.

They definitely are not us, as a matter of fact they tried to genocide us a couple of times already, one of the things I always found grating about apocalypse was how they were always painted as tragic heroes or some other crap like that when they were literaly the splat most antagonistic towards humans, hell a sizeable group of them still wants to bring back the impergium, they are utter monsters which wouldn't be a problem in the slightest since this is WoD we are talking about but damn if their stupidity doesn't become grating quickly once you get into the lore.

Regarding your list of "achievements", do you realize that those are a drop in the sea compared to the utter genocide of entire races?

[MrNatas]

I can't get what is good about Garou? They are not good guys, and they are too week as a spice to ise right of the power.

What is good about any creature of the night? Vampires are literal blood suckers that only seek the continuation of their kind and will use mental corruption on beings they view as lesser to make their living space as comfortable as possible. Mages are hubristic narcissist that are looking to murder a different sect of mages because in the infinite space of the universe there is only enough room for only one of them. Changelings are hedonistic drug addicts that are looking to make slaves of populations in order to make more of their drug and say it's 'helping' the human in question. Fera are just petty sparkledogs that say they have the true answers but, are just as hypocritical and uncaring as anyone else. Summarizing everyone like this will have massive errors in tone and generalizations to the point of being misinformation.

Saying that the Garou are 'good guys' is like saying that Mages are the 'good guys.' The material is always in the point of view that Splat in question is doing it's best and has the right to do so. Even in Forsaken the Uratha see themselves as the protagonist of their line. 'Our ancestors messed up and now we are cursed to have this solemn duty to make sure the world is protected from the land of spirits.' That doesn't paint them as unforgivable demons that need to die, that frames it as you messed up now you have to be Cops.

Further it really doesn't matter how strong "powerwise" a particular splat is to have enjoyment of the game itself. People enjoy the drama of the struggle. Nothing is more compelling as a story as the indominable spirit against the unmoving cruelty of the universe. The struggle to make your own hope and victories. To me that is what makes WtA compelling as a game and not any kind of 'power' they should or shouldn't have to give them the right to exist.

[Asmodai]

They definitely are not us, as a matter of fact they tried to genocide us a couple of times already, one of the things I always found grating about apocalypse was how they were always painted as tragic heroes or some other crap like that when they were literaly the splat most antagonistic towards humans, hell a sizeable group of them still wants to bring back the impergium, they are utter monsters which wouldn't be a problem in the slightest since this is WoD we are talking about but damn if their stupidity doesn't become grating quickly once you get into the lore.

Regarding your list of "achievements", do you realize that those are a drop in the sea compared to the utter genocide of entire races?

Humans have quite successfully performed genocide on humans and other species through our time on this planet. Mostly out of hubris, stupidity and plain bloody short sightedness. So, Yes, we are them and they are us.

They dropped the impergium because they realised they were fucking up themselves and the world through it, it's one of the most rational choices they have ever made. Humans are the ones that fucked up their chance after that by being assholes. As for the impergium, who is this sizeable majority that's for it? Neither do the tribebooks support it nor does the fact that 80-90% of the nation is actually human born.

As for the tragic heroism? Well that's easy... they kept the world going no matter the fact that they were losing all along, they died for the survival of gaia and everything on it, including humans. The reason the world is not a complete mess is that they fought the Wyrm through the ages and did a pretty damn good job - compare the umbra in the Dark Ages and the Wyld West with the modern one as well as how powerful the Wyrm and its minions are. They have averted a hundred Apocalypses before the big one, and this one is their final challenge. Of course they are Heroes.

Of course Heroes are not paragons of virtue. They are flawed people known for murdering their families, sleeping with their mothers, killing their fathers, cheating on their spouses, inciting genocidal wars, thievery, rape, pillage and general malfeasance. This is all countermanded by the fact that they are people of great skill, artistry, capable of love and loss, passion and legendry, able to do great deeds, protect the needy and change the world. You will wonder how anyone can justify this, simple, humans did and through ther idolation of these figures made them into Heroes. I am of course talking about the original Heroes of Greek Myth. The same applies to the Garou.

[Lashet]

What is good about any creature of the night? Vampires are literal blood suckers that only seek the continuation of their kind and will use mental corruption on beings they view as lesser to make their living space as comfortable as possible. Mages are hubristic narcissist that are looking to murder a different sect of mages because in the infinite space of the universe there is only enough room for only one of them. Changelings are hedonistic drug addicts that are looking to make slaves of populations in order to make more of their drug and say it's 'helping' the human in question. Fera a

Further it really doesn't matter how strong "powerwise" a particular splat is to have enjoyment of the game itself. People enjoy the drama of the struggle. Nothing is more compelling as a story as the indominable spirit against the unmoving cruelty of the universe. The struggle to make your own hope and victories. To me that is what makes WtA compelling as a game and not any kind of 'power' they should or shouldn't have to give them the right to exist.

Other splats didn't pose themselves as theWorld-protectors!!!... at least not that much.
Werewolves, from the very start, not the best template for shining knights. BUT! They could be them is all of their fuckery would be limited by tragic assidents. Not by multy-frieaking-millenial timeline full of fuckups and hypocrisy.
You know who can be good Garou with such history? Angel from Buffy-verse. Vampire, yep. But which is most important - someone who knows he doesn't deserve happy ending.

But, I personally don't care much about morality, like Newb95. Garou are too far from championing there. For me, it's about power. And, while good at low- and middle-level... again, they are too far to championing.
Image Prince Albrecht as Omni-Man and Mitchra as Homelander in this cartoon:

https://youtu.be/_BGBsCGTzdA

If it'd be like this, I'd like Garou as much as I originaly did.
But every time (except of Shu-Horus) when Garou meets Vampire elders, its seems to be another way.

[MrNatas]

Regarding your list of "achievements", do you realize that those are a drop in the sea compared to the utter genocide of entire races?

So how long do we hold accountable people for crimes of the past? have the Garou done terrible things to humanity? Yes they have. Do they view it as a mistaken and tried to move forward? Yes they have. Is that enough? Maybe not but, does that give you the right to put the sins of the Father on the Son?

There are Garou that want to bring back Impergium but, they are not praised and are often condemned. Are you going to suggest that the Garou should just attack and kill all of them? Shouldn't they learn that doesn't work and just makes things worse. I'm not saying that Garou are some kind angels that can do no wrong but, I think say they are all guilty for a crimes that where so long ago that not even someone that would be a 1000 years old would remember is a bit harsh as a stance.

Other splats didn't pose themselves as theWorld-protectors!!!... at least not that much.
Werewolves, from the very start, not the best template for shining knights. BUT! They could be them is all of their fuckery would be limited by tragic assidents. Not by multy-frieaking-millenial timeline full of fuckups and hypocrisy.
You know who can be good Garou with such history? Angel from Buffy-verse. Vampire, yep. But which is most important - someone who knows he doesn't deserve happy ending.

But, I personally don't care much about morality, like Newb95. Garou are too far from championing there. For me, it's about power. And, while good at low- and middle-level... again, they are too far to championing.
Image Prince Albrecht as Omni-Man and Mitchra as Homelander in this cartoon:

https://youtu.be/_BGBsCGTzdA

If it'd be like this, I'd like Garou as much as I originaly did.
But every time (except of Shu-Horus) when Garou meets Vampire elders, its seems to be another way.

I guess I'll never be able to understand your position because the story of any WoD splat have never been about gaining power, in fact the people that do just go about gaining power are almost always viewed as amoral and objectively incorrect. No one is saying that all splats should follow Samuel Haight's example of "in depth storytelling." Having a bigger number doesn't make you anymore compelling or complete as a character. Prince Albrecht being Omni-Man wouldn't make him more interesting or 'right' in terms of the narrative.

A Garou posing themselves as a Protector of the World doesn't matter. That's what they believe based off their limited understanding but, what matters is the storytelling there within. Them putting themselves into that spot is what makes their drama. Which is why the majority of the people play for, the drama. If Garou where these thing that could do no wrong and infinitely powerful, what would be the game? Even Forsaken doesn't have them as all powerful Gods that can solve any problem easily.

I don't mean to be rude but, if the game you are looking for is about going on adventures and fighting things as a Demigod/Deity with increasing power then I would suggest looking into Exalted. No WoD/CofD themes and stories are going to stratify the type of game or characters you want.