Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

[Asmodai]

I can't get what is good about Garou? They are not good guys, and they are too week as a spice to ise right of the power.

I can tell you why I care for them and why I keep running this game. Not sure it will mean anything to you.

• Werewolf is a game of deeply flawed characters left with the conseqences of the actions of their ancestors and choosing to fight small battles instead of winning the war.
• Now they realise their efforts were wasted, that they have fought themselves and their friends while losing the true battle - the one for human hearts
• The world is going to end in a horrible way where everyone will suffer incredibly, transformed into vicious mockeries of themselves and forced to perform the wickedest of deeds upon each other while everything burns in the laughter of a mad titan hoping to drown its misery in everyone's suffering
• Yet there is Hope. The Garou have always fought a fight against the impossible, but now they realise the End is coming and the last few generations of them have started making changes, making amends and looking for friends and allies to stand by them in the final days
• If they manage to make amends and fix the bridges they burned there are many who could stand with them - whole Worlds, including ours
• The Garou will either do their jobs and save their Mother and possibly us, or die trying, there is no middle ground here and their choice is to stand proud and fight against the dying of the light

That's the core concept, and as such it is strong, it is powerful it has resonance with many things including the traumas of modern living. However, that is not all. I love Werewolf for other reasons as well

• The myths and cultures of humanity have shaped the shifters and they have shaped them in return, the mythology and history of the world is at your palms and by studying it and embracing it you can portray their battle and the worlds they fight for - myth and legend forms the Umbra, the spirits and the Garou
• Werewolf was actually the game that got me interested in mythology, comparative religion and world history, without the drive to understand better and get around some of the jank the original authors introduced my life and my experience of the world would be narrower and less fulfilling than they were thanks to me discovering this game and wanting to embrace its ideas
• Their culture embraces storytelling and revel, celebrating the deeds of the worthy and remembering the fallen, if the idea of gathering after something great with your friends and celebrating it together while remembering the good, the bad, the funny and the lost doesn't resonate with people, it's strange they would gather and tell tales around the table, floor and laugh and celebrate their victories and defeats
• It plays into the fascination man had with beasts since the early days, as well as leaning into animism, a set of beliefs so straightforward they were one of ours first belief systems, both those things find easy purchase among players and are easy to grasp
• The spirits are a wellspring of immense beauty, wonder, strangeness and terror - be they as allies, antagonists or enemies spirits enrich the game and increase the possible cast and scenery of the game manyfold
• It is a game about family, your own blood and how you relate to them, but also about your found family, your pack and your battle brothers and the bonds it builds, as such it rests on strong foundations ripe for conflict and growth
• Even with all the errors the Garou and the Fera have commited through the past, they still managed to do great deeds and carve out their own places offering truly unique and deeply intriguing worldviews with strange ideals and redefined values that let you make your mark on the world
• The world is fucked up for sure, but Garou, Fera, spirits, humans and beasts can all change it and they do it by actually being better towards each other, for the Wyrm feeds of the worst in all of us and falters in front of the best in all of us
• The horrors they fight are truly terrible, what's worse, they are bred, fed and built by the worst excesses of Humanity (and the Shifters in turn) it is satisfying to fight them, because true monsters are easy targets and something that makes you feel you made a simple victory
• But on the other hand, the monsters are a distraction, sure they are cool, sure they are revolting, but just like the Garou if you just focus on them you miss what is really at stake - the Wyld is mad, The Weaver is mad and the Wyrm is mad - you will not fix the world without fixing what feeds them and empowers them, starting by yourself and then continuing with your allies and friends, and maybe, just maybe you might give Gaia one more chance
• Yet they may fail - they are proud, they are hidebund, they are stubborn, at the end of the day they are as human as we are and that's a horror of its own
• And at the end of it, I circle back to Hope - the shifters have a chance to make a change and that's more than most of us will ever have, and maybe just maybe some of it rubs off on us

So yes. This is why I love Werewolf the Apocalypse. I may be but one person, but I'm sure there are quite a few that it resonates with.

[Lashet]

So how long do we hold accountable people for crimes of the past? have the Garou done terrible things to humanity? Yes they have. Do they view it as a mistaken and tried to move forward? Yes they have. Is that enough? Maybe not but, does that give you the right to put the sins of the Father on the Son?

There are Garou that want to bring back Impergium but, they are not praised and are often condemned. Are you going to suggest that the Garou should just attack and kill all of them? Shouldn't they learn that doesn't work and just makes things worse. I'm not saying that Garou are some kind angels that can do no wrong but, I think say they are all guilty for a crimes that where so long ago that not even someone that would be a 1000 years old would remember is a bit harsh.

How long? Forever. Until someone remember what happened - it's not the past. And its not about your 'virtual predressors'. It's always about you. Get of Fenris were deleted exactly couse of this by the way (becouse they had Nazi cam inside of the tribe... and writers REALLY didn't need to add it there). So when it's come toSins of Fathers, there is two ways.
Or for Garou - none. Couse neithers their fathers sins can be firgotten (you know that's exactly why we waiting End of World, or why actually HAD End of World - in W5) nor they strong and powerfull and cynical enough to just say: "Yep. Now what?"

[werewolf43]

If I could write and speak english as well I would write exactly the same.

[Mizu]

How long? Forever. Until someone remember what happened - it's not the past. And its not about your 'virtual predressors'. It's always about you. Get of Fenris were deleted exactly couse of this by the way (becouse they had Nazi cam inside of the tribe... and writers REALLY didn't need to add it there). So when it's come toSins of Fathers, there is two ways.
Or for Garou - none. Couse neithers their fathers sins can be firgotten (you know that's exactly why we waiting End of World, or why actually HAD End of World - in W5) nor they strong and powerfull and cynical enough to just say: "Yep. Now what?"

Sorry, I don't really understand why someone should be treated as personally responsible for things they had no control over that happened before they were born. Explain your logic for why John Doe (20th of his name) is responsible for the actions of John Doe the 1st.

[MrNatas]

Just to echo what Asmodai has said, to me werewolf has never been about a group of people being objectively correct and the only people that know what's going on and can do something about it. To me Werewolf is about the Garou's nature placing them in a situation where they now have to dig themselves out of while also dealing with all the things around them and more specifically the personal stories there within.

While there is all this history and cosmology to werewolf, and is interesting don't get me wrong, it comes down to the stories found on the individual level that I find the most fun at.

How long? Forever. Until someone remember what happened - it's not the past. And its not about your 'virtual predressors'. It's always about you. Get of Fenris were deleted exactly couse of this by the way (becouse they had Nazi cam inside of the tribe... and writers REALLY didn't need to add it there). So when it's come toSins of Fathers, there is two ways.
Or for Garou - none. Couse neithers their fathers sins can be firgotten (you know that's exactly why we waiting End of World, or why actually HAD End of World - in W5) nor they strong and powerfull and cynical enough to just say: "Yep. Now what?"

Then I guess we need to hold the English, German, Mongolians, Greeks, Italians, Etc. For all the things they have done in history for all time forever since that history is recorded and there are still people saying they are for those groups.

And how is it about *"you"* when you are are also saying that we shouldn't ever forgive something that wasn't even closely done by anyone alive. I personally think that tragedies shouldn't ever be forgotten by any group because ultimately that is how you learn from your ancestors mistakes. Saying that we should lose that is a bit counter productive to what it means to make up for past mistakes.

As for the Get and the Sword of Heimdal. Yes the Sword was a camp of the Get but, it was a secert camp that wasn't accpeted and when the main body of the Get found out about them purged them from their tribe. But I guess what you are getting at is that the Get are just bound to be bad guys due to people never forgetting that at one point in time they had bad actors in their tribe. Of course all other tribes are free of this, there are no bad actors in Silver Fangs, Glasswalkers, Black Fury, Red Talons, Shadowlords, etc.

Snark and sarcasm aside. I think its a bit hypocritical to say that 'humans done terrible things to ourselves but, that's different because the humans that did so had the "strength and power and cynicism" to do so and thus have the right to do so.' But to have a group that wants to move on from their past not able to be forgiven because they don't want to forget it and don't want to continue it because of their lack of 'strength or power or cynicism.'

If I'm misunderstanding your point then please clarify because I'm confused to what your point is.

[voidshaper]

Nobody inherits the responsibility for the sins of their forbears. The only inheritances are the consequences of their actions and the responsibility to not repeat the same mistakes.

That's a concept that's baked into the WoD as a whole, and Garou are particularly well set up to be thrown into an environment that teaches that lesson with gusto. Modern sensibilities clash hard with the traditional culture of the Tribes, and the package of consequences the dear ancestors (who by tradition should be revered) dumped on the back of the whole Nation is about to smother them all.

All that Rage isn't just because Gaia good and Wyrm bad, it's because every Garou is thrown into a bed of thorns they had no hand in making.

[Lashet]

Then I guess we need to hold the English, German, Mongolians, Greeks, Italians, Etc. For all the things they have done in history for all time forever since that history is recorded and there are still people saying they are for those groups.



As for the Get and the Sword of Heimdal. Yes the Sword was a camp of the Get but, it was a secert camp that wasn't accpeted and when the main body of the Get found out about them purged them from their tribe. But I guess what you are getting at is that the Get are just bound to be bad guys due to people never forgetting that at one point in time they had bad actors in their tribe. Of course all other tribes are free of this, there are no bad actors in Silver Fangs, Glasswalkers, Black Fury, Red Talons, Shadowlords, etc.

Many people would. Any time things go south etchnic counflicts tend to increase. But we came way to close to the reality.
Anyway, when Paradox choose which tribe suppose to Fall - it was Get of Fenrise. And I'm quite sure that's becouse of Heimdals and assosiations such element brings IRL. And no one care, how much they try to clean it in the plotline. That's the rule now.

[Lashet]

Nobody inherits the responsibility for the sins of their forbears. The only inheritances are the consequences of their actions and the responsibility to not repeat the same mistakes.

That's a concept that's baked into the WoD as a whole, and Garou are particularly well set up to be thrown into an environment that teaches that lesson with gusto. Modern sensibilities clash hard with the traditional culture of the Tribes, and the package of consequences the dear ancestors (who by tradition should be revered) dumped on the back of the whole Nation is about to smother them all.

All that Rage isn't just because Gaia good and Wyrm bad, it's because every Garou is thrown into a bed of thorns they had no hand in making.

It doesn't change anything. The game line supposed to be too light and heroic for the lore written too dark. This doesn't need heroesand all this pathos.

After all, even @Asmodal refered that, after all, it's WtA is the gameline that rewritten to the core, not VtM or MtAs, nor even CtD or DtF. So, something was written wrong there, wasn't it?

[Mizu]

It doesn't change anything. The game line supposed to be too light and heroic for the lore written too dark. This doesn't need heroesand all this pathos.

After all, even @Asmodal refered that, after all, it's WtA is the gameline that rewritten to the core, not VtM or MtAs, nor even CtD or DtF. So, something was written wrong there, wasn't it?

What are you talking about? They rewrote a lot of stuff in VtM. Like how they crammed every single clan with the slightest ties to necromancy into one single clan and rewrote them to all have the same clan curse.

[voidshaper]

It doesn't change anything. The game line supposed to be too light and heroic for the lore written too dark. This doesn't need heroesand all this pathos.

After all, even @Asmodal refered that, after all, it's WtA is the gameline that rewritten to the core, not VtM or MtAs, nor even CtD or DtF. So, something was written wrong there, wasn't it?

I would say that depends on what you make of it. I personally think confronting players with hard decisions is interesting and engaging, and there is a lot of that in WtA. The light and dark the setting provides is exactly there for that reason: how does a character compromise between dread and struggle and hope and wonder? How do they fit into an alien society that is crushing them, but at the same time provides friendship and support?

Don't get me wrong here, WtA made a lot of mistakes and has downright stupid stuff in it. At the same time, it's an excellent twisted mirror sandbox of real life. Our ancestors did idiotic things and we are suffering the consequences. They also did really cool things we benefit from. Our societies are based on traditions that are downright stupid at times, but make a lot of sense at others. We have to navigate through all that by making compromises and decisions that allow us to make of it the best we can.

For me, WtA isn't escapism in form of a power fantasy to heroically slay through Wyrm forces. It's escapism in form of heroically powering through all that crap I've listed above. Slaying metaphorical Wyrm.

That's why I don't agree with some of the decisions that are being made for W5, too. I would rather have them rework confrontational aspects of the game than removing them, because I think they are points of player engagement.

Your mileage may vary, of course; the setting is flexible enough to allow all sorts of interpretations.

[Asmodai]

Both Hunter and Vampire have been "rewritten to the core".

Vampires in hiding from the governments of the world hunting them, Camarilla is "The Man" (when it's not hiding from the "Other Man" (TM) and the modern world), Sabbat is unplayable, Gehenna didn't matter and Anarchs are the only relatable and "normal" faction in the game. In Hunter Imbued don't exist, the factions of hunters going back to 1992 are all antagonists and not good enough to be protagonists. Yet still it's called "Reckoning".

You can see quite a few threads with people complaining about it and wanting something else. You're actually here in one from the Werewolf fans discussing the changes and impacts of the previews we have seen almost a year ago.

As for the Swords of Heimdall, I cannot believe most people lampooning them as the sin of the Get obviously never actually read up on them. They were a small fringe of big bads, someone you're supposed to fight and there's never any suggestion they are in any way good or aspirational. They exist to be targets for a game of Werewolf, not someone you should be joining. But since somebody cannot read with comprehension, they first had them burned out by fire just to be sure people aren't confused by their purpose, and now, 25 years later they are still tainting conversations and inspiring Paradox to just cut the Get out instead of actually focusing on what they have to offer.

It doesn't change anything. The game line supposed to be too light and heroic for the lore written too dark. This doesn't need heroesand all this pathos.

I'm really curious, which Werewolf books did you actually read? I have just spent 30 minutes pouring my heart out and telling you what the game is about. I've focused on the interesting conflicts it generates and the resonance with the human condition it represents. There's so many positive things can be found in the game as long as you are willing to engage with it fairly.

Werewolf is being rewritten due to the sins of the past authors not doing research and/or being edgy then these sins evolving into a messed up game of broken telephone. Worse yet the conversations about Werewolf have a rather negative tendency to focus on this old material which was deeply revised in (heh) Revised and where a huge effort was made to make the Garou more a part of the world and reflect the people they belong to. They really did the best they could have done fixing some of the crappy stuff inherit in all old WoD material. Of course if people bother to actually check out what the game materials were really like and how they changed, even before Revised most of it was fine, even if there were certain stinkers.

This led to Paradox concluding it doesn't need the drama and would rather just cut out the metis, the nation and the cultural and ethnographic ties of the Garou with the people of the world instead of actually doing research and positively reaffirming the cultural and ethnographic variety of human history while allowing us to handle consequences of human action and trying to fix things.

If you think Mage, Wraith, Changeling or Demon are gonna survive this as they were, boy are you in for a rude awakening.

[CTPhipps]

As someone who prefer Forsaken any day of week, can't see the problem there? WtA never was a good gameline, it needs some redesign. Altough, with this new plotline ' dead Gaya, Apoc that ALREADY happened and no one gave a shit'... this game beyond salvation anyway.
P.S. Also, until werewolves will find a way to achive powerlevel of high-end vampires (mages, faes, demons) they deserve only to suffer. Image prince Albracht turned into Reek for Sasha Vykos.

Edition warring is forbidden on these forums and frankly, just in poor taste.

You also continued this thread line and should leave the thread for it.

[Lashet]

But...the title of the thread has the word Forsaken in it?

[TyrannicalRabbit]

But...the title of the thread has the word Forsaken in it?

Because that has nothing to do with making an inflammatory post...?

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Also, the Get "fell" to Gaia, somehow. Haglust, as a new concept for W5, is still not particularly well-defined.