Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

[monteparnas]

Cause V20 is obsolete. V5 is the only one they’re still
putting out supplements for. You can buy V5 stuff for the future of your game and V20 if you want to fill in the past history and lore.

V20 core is self contained, and it has so many supplements that V5 barely touch it in terms of support even after 4 years.

Were the pace of publication better this could be a valid argument, but with the current pace V5 simply won't compete with V20 in terms of support to your game at least until the second half of the decade, maybe more, and that disregarding that X20 still have releases and a significant push to keep going. From this perspective it's easier to use V5 as secondary support if you want new lore and otherwise stay at V20 than the other way around.

It's true that newer editions have a standard place as the go to edition for new players, but in this specific scenario we have an edition that isn't legacy yet, but still ongoing, and a huge gap in effective support for the player they offer that the new edition is simply not covering.

But if this leads to W5 being released in Q1 2023 maybe because Renegade Games has so much on their plate and strategically it would make more sense to release that stuff before W5, isn't there also a danger in losing people's attention when it takes so much time to release these books? Maybe the W5-release should be prioritized in order to regain the attention of the public that WOD5 is alive and kicking so-to-speak.

With H5 out, releasing W5 too soon would give the same impression, maybe worse, as it would make it all too obvious that the move is what it is, reeking of desperation.

Instead it is more probable that they'll try to focus on H5 for now, and V5 of course, and use them as excuses to hold the lid on the expectations. They basically have the perfect argument to not release W5 this year.

Actually, given the pace of their publications, I don't expect it to Q1 either. While I don't think it will take a whole year from now, I'd put it in Q2 2023 at least. But then, they may decide to rush things in Q4 2022, if they do we may see W5 earlier.

If someone pitched me VtM mixed with Paranoia XP Straight

Shut up and take my money!

[Nicolas Milioni]

I love wod5,but a new edition don't make the ones before them obsolete

[Amethyst]

You’re right. I used the wrong word. Legacy sounds much better than obsolete.

[Manfr]

V20 core is self contained, and it has so many supplements that V5 barely touch it in terms of support even after 4 years.

Were the pace of publication better this could be a valid argument, but with the current pace V5 simply won't compete with V20 in terms of support to your game at least until the second half of the decade, maybe more, and that disregarding that X20 still have releases and a significant push to keep going. !

Actually, if we count just Vampire, V5 and V20 have the same number of published supplements, despite V20 having a twice longer publishing history and V5 having almost a year without releases due to Modiphius messing up. It would be good if V5 had a stronger publishing pace, we shall see whether they can deliver on the next 3 supplements, but as a Vampire fan I'm fairly satisfied.

Of course the scenario changes if we take into account other X20 lines.

As for your other advice, use V5 for metaplot developments and V20 for the rest, it is sound advice: I usually do the inverse, and use V20 as a lore source (integrative, not substitutive: I like V5 developments but I'm a metaplot nerd). I find V5 rules just amazingly simpler to manage.

[Manfr]

I love wod5,but a new edition don't make the ones before them obsolete

I think that Justin and his team are taking a note from WotC in their approach to setting.

When WotC set up Forgotten Realms as THE setting for DnD 5ed, everyone expected a new massive setting book. Instead they released the Sword Coast Guide and a number of adventures, all offering a different glimpse of the setting.

Sword Coast Guide (but also Van Richten's new Ravenloft book) are not word-expensive metaplot indexes: they do present the rough sketches of the setting, give structure to how to use plot seeds to frame your stories, and then you are explicitly told to expand your game world with pre-existing published material, if you feel the need to.

This is where the DMsGuild comes into play, allowing both for easy recovery of old material and an endless stream of new player options.

Of course, numbers and size here are different, but the model seems very similar: and Dnd5 has still had its number of critics for having a slow pace of publishing (compared to standard DnD rhytms) and supplements which are mostly adventures and plot hooks.

However, it has the distinct advantage of reducing the reasons for Edition warring. I also think it's more ethical and respectful of past legacies, instead of trying to convince you to buy a new book just to check how this minutia X has changed in 10 years.

We shall see whether this makes sense for WOD: with me it's working even though I'm not a new customer.

[Manfr]

This makes me genuienly curious how character progression is going to look.

One theory I have for why the situation is this, is that the world in WoD5 is so chaotic and there are so many hunters and forces that kill supernaturals around that any progression beyond street level will get a target on your head.

This does explain why Gaia is dead, you cannot access the umbra and the Nation is fractures are a thing. If the idea truly is that you cannot ever get comfortable as a supernatural, then things like umbra and garou politics mean nothing.

Yet, we circle back to the title once more; This is just basic Forsaken at this point. You try to protect your territory and clean it up the best you can, greater things are not yet anywhere NEAR your level. Thing is, though, in Forsaken you will eventually establish yourself.

Another theory I have, is that games are meant to be shorter and once your characters get a foot in the door, you make them the new bad guys for a new group of characters.

What I find strange is that we have ~40 years of design history around games that are focused on playing the "eternal fledgling" type.... and V5 seems to have used none of those games for inspiration on how to make things fun while operating in that space. Going all the way back to Paranoia, we have decades of game design trying to make "playing the poor schmucks at the bottom with no real hope of ever being anything but," fun... with a lot of success in how to execute that idea. If someone pitched me VtM mixed with Paranoia XP Straight, that sounds pretty damned fun even if it does mean a game playing in that "street level" arena. Because Paranoia is a system designed around it. V5 kept all the parts of VtM where most of the fun is in escaping that level of play, and didn't really replace them with anything else.

Which as noted for character advancement, is going to be very weird to see how things shake out in W5 considering how much Renown/Rank is part of the original game-play-loop.

We shall see, but in your comments I find a recurring tone, that has surfaced a lot in past V5 discussions here and elsewhere (days ago I was re-reading the old 107-pages long V5 Thread of Doom on RPG.net).

It seems like Paradox and NuWW before would try to create a tight, almost one shot, mode of play, in order to cater to their expressed setting design ideas.

This may be true if we were looking at a PBTA or other indie laser-focused games, but WOD is still a trad game suited for campaigns.

What will happen to W5 will be similar to what happened to V5: a degree of nerf and bloat reduction, less "sacred cows" in the setting, introduction of new mechanics to make the perceived themes of the game more relevant to everyday games.

What was perceived as incredibly obtrusive setting totems will be the default start of your game and a set of tools, and you will range from there and go forward.

[Manfr]

Hadn't noticed we were using the same argument, though with very different conclusions!

It's more about visibility and what a new player sees. If you have stopped producing all the other games to focus the market on the product you want to move (and for good reason, Requiem and V20 existing are a hindrance to V5's market success in the One World of Darkness paradigm) the default game is the one that you have available in hobby stores and that is getting the tie-in products and the official support of the company.

There is also a wider availability factor: outside the corebooks, which were almost universally licensed abroad, most of the X20 run was released to Kickstarter backers, POD or with limited shop numbers, and especially outside the US didn't reach the wider hobby stores market. V5 has a wider distribution network.

However, Parawolf said "You know all that other stuff? It's irrelevant and unplayable in this new WoD and the new setting will be what we want it to be, you were doing it wrong before, anyway."

Never, ever has this been stated as a "design goal" or a difference between V5 and other editions by neither Ericsson, Achilli or others. In fact, the early V5 team was big on being philological: it disseminated small lore tidbits everywhere, even referenced in the opening pages of the corebook the death of Jalan Ajaav - which is a pretty obscure and specialized Metaplot character - and relied a lot on metaplot-authority Matthew Dawkins as a writer and developer.

V5 has huge metaplot and rules differences with older editions ... as DND 5, DND 4, DND 3.5 and AD&D are very different in rules, tones and styles between themselves, with no retro-compatibilty between themselves.

[Manfr]

-Loresheets are fucking expensive. Your advantage dots are limited. I've either fail to remember or I haven't read it, but if it costs points to play a bloodline that isn't really out of the way, that's a downer. Points wasted on things like this are points not spent on things like beauty or wealth.

To play a Bloodline, you just shift Disciplines. Each Loresheeet then gives you customization options, with different tematic powers or access to game resources: as they are a Loresheet, you can just take one of the levels and customize it to your needs, either getting de-facto access to new Backgrounds or to a specialized Discipline power. I think the cost is good.

-Assamite Sorcery has the Path of Blood. Whether it's the default primary path is a matter of edition but for the clan of wanton Diablerists, the path of blood is going to be useful. As for the interests of AsSc vs Tremere, there's a good 90% overlap. Hermeticism is very interested in the three disciplines in Alchemy, Astrology and theurgy, that's why Hermes was called thrice great. Assamites meanwhile are interested in... Alchemy, Astrology and Theurgy. The differences mostly stem from the Tremere agreeing on compromise and that they'd all meet in the middle with something standardized, and the assamites... not doing that.

This is true, but as you often point out ... Tremere are Hermetics, and that's a paradigm: Assamite Sorcery is a very different paradigm, more grounded on ancient Babylonian practices.

-The schismatics have joined the failing Camarilla in V5, who welcomes them with open arms in hopes of hastening their demise. I could rant for an hour but it's late and... like just nothing makes sense here. They claim to be having issues with the crazy loyalists whilst also not being -the islamic clan- and yet they rebrand themselves "Banu Haquim" because they want a name that establishes that they're loyalists to Haquim while also Muslims (even though a sizable portion aren't). When does this "Coherence" you speak of begin?

Yes, we could probably rant for hours on this but ... they are an Islamic world-based Clan broadening their base, and torn apart by a Civil War with its radical element. I find the pitch rather simple and coherent!

[Manfr]

Well , under your same statements, V20 isn't obsolete (at all). I mean, if I want to play a Sabbat game, the only way to do that is V20. If I want to play an Elder game, my only way to do that is V20. If I want a game of trenchcoats and katanas and without homebrew, my only way to do is V20/Requiem (which hasn't got any new stuff for a while , in favor of V5). I f my game style usually requires many rolls and without homebrew, well , the only way to do that is V20/Requiem. With that, I want to say that an edition isn't obsolete because it hasn't got new material. It's obsolete because can't accomplish to full the necessities that the majority of players and ST have in THIS actual moment. Indeed I say that V5 is the obsolete edition by today standards. Because this edition doesn't allow you to play Sabbat or Elders meanwhile the most popular books are about to make that games possible again (and we haven't got any clue that this will change in a nearly future)

I ran a 2-year Trenchcoat and Katanas campaign with V5 and it worked wonderfully: simplified combat and disciplines allowed me to focus on the cinematic cool things, instead of rolling thrice just to see whether I damaged you or not.

[Heavy Arms]

Actually, if we count just Vampire, V5 and V20 have the same number of published supplements,...

The problem is that the number of supplements isn't the only metric here, but also the practical value of the supplements. If Paradox pumped out a dozen books next year that were a 1/10 of the utility of the already questionable utility of the V5 Cam/Anarch/Sabbat trio, it would let you argue that V5 is much better supported in terms of quantity, but it wouldn't be saying much about quality.

V20's books, on average, are just better gaming books. They provide far more practical information, rules additions, and so on, per book than V5 tends to. Lore of the Clans isn't the greatest book ever, but it alone is worth 13 books in VtM 2e or Rev. terms by itself, and easily out paces anything V5's put out in sheer utility.

Of course the scenario changes if we take into account other X20 lines.

Sure, because most of V20 was already done, so nWW/Paradox couldn't trash W20, limit C20 and Wr20 to the tiny number of books they got, and then deny any of the other game lines 20th lines at all. I'm not sure what comparing H5 to "we didn't let Onyx Path make a H20," says about anything when it comes to the books themselves.

It seems like Paradox and NuWW before would try to create a tight, almost one shot, mode of play, in order to cater to their expressed setting design ideas.

This may be true if we were looking at a PBTA or other indie laser-focused games, but WOD is still a trad game suited for campaigns.

I think you're misinterpreting a lot of other conversations. People tend to express that, based on how V5 turned out, Paradox would be better served switching to a PbtA style approach of tightly curated experiences rather than sticking to the more traditional style like they opted to do, because it hurts V5 to try to both narrow its focus and keep an engine designed around trad sandbox gaming (not sure why you think PbtA games can't be made for longer campaigns).

What will happen to W5 will be similae to what happened to V5: a degree of nerf and bloat reduction, less "sacred cows" in the setting, introduction of new mechanics to make the perceived themes of the game more relevant to everyday games.

Which just means a lot of upset WtA fans because WtA fans have never really had the "edition" faction that many of the other WoD games have had. WtA fans, generally peaking, don't want to "go back to basics of 1e," or had to deal with a major tonal shift from 2e to Rev. There aren't partisans around whether or not it was good to have introduced the Seventh Generation just for Jonas to wipe them out without the players getting to do anything about a new antagonist type in the game. The good things about WtA 1e survived into W20, and a lot of garbage was shed a long the way already. Beyond some mechanics like the bloated Gift lists, there isn't a lot of fat to trim from the game because you end up in H5 territory where fans of the previous edition of the game are angry because you made a game that makes no sense to call a new edition of the previous game because you cut out too much stuff.

And of course, the V5 combat engine being the basis for a WtA game is painful to imagine as ever being a good idea.

What was perceived as incredibly obtrusive setting totems will be the default start of your game and a set of tools, and you will range from there and go forward.

Except the design of V5 and H5 is not, "and you will range form there and go forward," as both spend far too much time ensuring that never happens because that's not the "real" place for PCs to be. They need to be constantly reminded to stay in their place as weak underdogs that can't ever amass power to get anything meaningful done.

Never, ever has this been stated as a "design goal" or a difference between V5 and other editions by neither Ericsson, Achilli or others.

It's still a design result.

It's also something Achilli has said about the Sabbat, H5, and elements from W5 he's cutting.

V5 has huge metaplot and rules differences with older editions ... as DND 5, DND 4, DND 3.5 and AD&D are very different in rules, tones and styles between themselves, with no retro-compatibilty between themselves.

The problem is that V5 isn't dealing with decades of editions without backwards compatibility and cohesive setting continuity. The WoD was built on a strong backbone of relatively consistent rules between editions and not redoing everything each edition. V5 is an outlier here, the comparison to D&D isn't really valid.

[Manfr]

The problem is that the number of supplements isn't the only metric here, but also the practical value of the supplements. If Paradox pumped out a dozen books next year that were a 1/10 of the utility of the already questionable utility of the V5 Cam/Anarch/Sabbat trio, it would let you argue that V5 is much better supported in terms of quantity, but it wouldn't be saying much about quality.

V20's books, on average, are just better gaming books. They provide far more practical information, rules additions, and so on, per book than V5 tends to. Lore of the Clans isn't the greatest book ever, but it alone is worth 13 books in VtM 2e or Rev. terms by itself, and easily out paces anything V5's put out in sheer utility.

The same is said of DnD 5 books by this edition's adversaries. Quality is also a subjective thing: if they are not to front-load a lot of rules and subsystems, current manuals which are more focused into hooks, adventures and tools for your campaigns are immensely more useful than aparade of 6+ powers and Thaumaturgical paths.

Sure, because most of V20 was already done, so nWW/Paradox couldn't trash W20, limit C20 and Wr20 to the tiny number of books they got, and then deny any of the other game lines 20th lines at all. I'm not sure what comparing H5 to "we didn't let Onyx Path make a H20," says about anything when it comes to the books themselves.

Sorry, I'm not getting your point here, probably due to me being a non-English speaker. Could you explain a bit?

However, correct me if I'm wrong, however, but OPP never stated that they would 20ify every line, neither they would support them at the same rate, if they lacked markets. Considering M20 is still churning out a lot of supplements and an entire new game line, I don't think it was Parawolf to limit the life and scope of Wr20 and C20, but probably markets.

I think you're misinterpreting a lot of other conversations. People tend to express that, based on how V5 turned out, Paradox would be better served switching to a PbtA style approach of tightly curated experiences rather than sticking to the more traditional style like they opted to do, because it hurts V5 to try to both narrow its focus and keep an engine designed around trad sandbox gaming (not sure why you think PbtA games can't be made for longer campaigns).

I have a completely different game experience, and never felt that V5 forced me to narrow the focus of what I was playing so ... to each its own! I feel this position is basically a re-do of the classic "But why did they touch my game? Go and make your own" argument exposed by many fans. New editions happen, and they usually have different design goals.

Which just means a lot of upset WtA fans because WtA fans have never really had the "edition" faction that many of the other WoD games have had. WtA fans, generally peaking, don't want to "go back to basics of 1e," or had to deal with a major tonal shift from 2e to Rev. There aren't partisans around whether or not it was good to have introduced the Seventh Generation just for Jonas to wipe them out without the players getting to do anything about a new antagonist type in the game. The good things about WtA 1e survived into W20, and a lot of garbage was shed a long the way already. Beyond some mechanics like the bloated Gift lists, there isn't a lot of fat to trim from the game because you end up in H5 territory where fans of the previous edition of the game are angry because you made a game that makes no sense to call a new edition of the previous game because you cut out too much stuff.

And of course, the V5 combat engine being the basis for a WtA game is painful to imagine as ever being a good idea.

I don't think V5 was born because there were massive edition wars between the fans of V1, V2 and V3, that would be more a Mage thing. V5 (and OPP's V4 too) was meant as reimagining the core experience of the game, in the light of 30 years of game design and a massively changed world, compared to when the game came out. The same will be true of Werewolf.

Of course, if you think everything was needed to run your game was in W20, you will stick to W20.

Except the design of V5 and H5 is not, "and you will range form there and go forward," as both spend far too much time ensuring that never happens because that's not the "real" place for PCs to be. They need to be constantly reminded to stay in their place as weak underdogs that can't ever amass power to get anything meaningful done.

That was the tone of 1st edition, then they first tried to manage it by making you into a serial diablerist, then they just said "Fuck, go join the elders and raise your powers to Infinity and beyond". A common critique of V5 is that nowadays Elders are too weak and do not scare the fledgelings anymore.
So, it's not like you have to stay weak forever: you have to start weak, and eat your way into the night, rebelling against your elders and taking them down.

At least, that's the core theme of the game: then, you can play everything else. Also because, despite this focus ... well, so far, almost all the published material and a sizable chunk of the official Actual Plays are still Camarilla-driven.

It's still a design result.

In the hearts and minds of those who don't like this edition, sure. As I've said, I play VtM in its 5th iteration exactly as I've played it from the waning days of 2nd edition onwards. Nothing has prevented me with running a Methuselah-Hunt campaign, or an all-Tzimisce one shot, and the system actually served me well.

[Ana Mizuki]

What will happen to W5 will be similar to what happened to V5: a degree of nerf and bloat reduction, less "sacred cows" in the setting, introduction of new mechanics to make the perceived themes of the game more relevant to everyday games.

What was perceived as incredibly obtrusive setting totems will be the default start of your game and a set of tools, and you will range from there and go forward.

The major problem with that is, that removing the 'sacred cows' from the things we've heard is making W5 not into a more streamlined game. It is making it basically just a copy of Werewolf the Forsaken. An IP that is already part of WoD. By that point, why not just use the game that does all these things natively?

As well, a lot of the things that are being removed are basically 90% of the game. WtA is not a street level game of surviving to the next night, it is a game of spiritual and social fights to push back thing like pollution, systematic oppression and corruption in general.

When CotD was still called NWoD, they already removed the perceived excess. It became Werewolf the Forsaken.

So my issue is that they are reinventing the wheel here at the cost of WtA's own unique aspects.

[Helur]

The major problem with that is, that removing the 'sacred cows' from the things we've heard is making W5 not into a more streamlined game. It is making it basically just a copy of Werewolf the Forsaken. An IP that is already part of WoD. By that point, why not just use the game that does all these things natively?

As well, a lot of the things that are being removed are basically 90% of the game. WtA is not a street level game of surviving to the next night, it is a game of spiritual and social fights to push back thing like pollution, systematic oppression and corruption in general.

When CotD was still called NWoD, they already removed the perceived excess. It became Werewolf the Forsaken.

So my issue is that they are reinventing the wheel here at the cost of WtA's own unique aspects.

I partly agree with you but this is not necessary true. It depends on the players and storyteller needs.

We are currently playing a long campaign of wta , with home rules from 5th edition to have a faster and more narrative game, using all the hints we have from w5 but without removing the cultural and ethnic things, and leaving blurred some stuff like metis and some litany points , in a pack of 10 Garou that protects a little caern.

The game is extremely horror and dramatic , with 40% of it around touchstones and their dramas. There are extremely mature hints and discussions, the stereotypes and the goofy representations of many tribes are left behind but at the same time all of them came out logical, dramatic and extremely realistic. The street level seems to be loved by the players and even more the fact that the wyrm is very hard to find and it manifests in subtle ways.

The social and spiritual fights are alive with all their consequences and dramatic facts. The drama about social oppression was killer during the last session. The social issues of a black fury youngster clashed against the pack leader orders, the characters found themselves in the middle , all that is happening make them questioning about their more militant side and at the same time they are tempted to do extreme thing and fall to the most extreme side of the garou.
This is hands down the best experience I am having.

I'm not saying you are wrong, absolutely. Because in the standard wta, epicness and what you mentioned are essential.
But it doenst mean that cant be storytelled in another way.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

The major problem with that is, that removing the 'sacred cows' from the things we've heard is making W5 not into a more streamlined game. It is making it basically just a copy of Werewolf the Forsaken. An IP that is already part of WoD. By that point, why not just use the game that does all these things natively?

As well, a lot of the things that are being removed are basically 90% of the game. WtA is not a street level game of surviving to the next night, it is a game of spiritual and social fights to push back thing like pollution, systematic oppression and corruption in general.

When CotD was still called NWoD, they already removed the perceived excess. It became Werewolf the Forsaken.

So my issue is that they are reinventing the wheel here at the cost of WtA's own unique aspects.

"Streamlined" in and of itself is not enough of a descriptor to honestly come to the conclusion of W5 being "just a copy of Werewolf the Forsaken." Streamline is a system design goal, not a setting defining characteristic. And that is before getting into the now very wide differences between Apocalypse and Forsaken that something as overly simplistic as honing in on "streamlining" does not even begin to touch on.

[Knightingale]

We shall see, but in your comments I find a recurring tone, that has surfaced a lot in past V5 discussions here and elsewhere (days ago I was re-reading the old 107-pages long V5 Thread of Doom on RPG.net).

It seems like Paradox and NuWW before would try to create a tight, almost one shot, mode of play, in order to cater to their expressed setting design ideas.

This may be true if we were looking at a PBTA or other indie laser-focused games, but WOD is still a trad game suited for campaigns.

What will happen to W5 will be similar to what happened to V5: a degree of nerf and bloat reduction, less "sacred cows" in the setting, introduction of new mechanics to make the perceived themes of the game more relevant to everyday games.

What was perceived as incredibly obtrusive setting totems will be the default start of your game and a set of tools, and you will range from there and go forward.

Interestingly, this isn't what happened to H5, though. There was no "degree of nerf and bloat reduction" with H5. The Imbued were written out of the game as if they've never existed. Additionally, Justin Achilli wants H5 to be played in a very particular way which is demonstrated by the book's insistence that the Hunters Hunted type of hunters and various organizations from the past are compromised and the reader is told multiple times that these organizations and the hunters in it aren't player-character-material either. Additionally, the antagonist-section never hints Garou, Kindred, Traditions/Technocracy etc.

In terms of mechanics, there's also the issue that H5 has some true sore spots in that regard. For example, H5 took Humanity from V5 and rather than find an equivalent to replace it, the decision was made to replace it with nothing. H5 simply has no mechanics regarding morality or the values of the Hunter-player-character. The way the game suggests acquiring weapons via Edges is a more obtrusive/annoying system than even the one in the old/original HtR.

And since the person who has done that is in charge of W5, I don't think it should be considered certain that the V5-approach in terms of lore, for example, will be copied for W5. The way H5 disappointed me as a game (even on its own terms) also gives me a rather pessimistic outlook for W5.