Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

[Manfr]

Have we read the same book? There's zero player facing material there. It's essentially a big lore dump about how evil the Inquistion really is and a big monster manual of different agent types you can use against your vampires. All the gear in the book is normal stuff that already exists and a couple of SI specials- none of it is meant for player characters. Not only is there no player facing material in that book, but the only book you could pair it with (Hunter 5) is strictly against you using it with that. So where in heaven's name do you see material for playable characters there?

It seems not.

But the book provides:

-Rules for specific Hunt modes
- Rules for specialist roles within Inquisition cells
- True Faith and Hedge Magic merits
- Rules on building a Inquisition cell similar to Coterie rules

Reverse engineering seems quite easy, much more than the sadly lacking Sabbat book, which really should have incorporated Khelil's rules.

As for why not generally allowing Hunters to join the Orgs in 2nd Inquisition book, I think it's a bad decision. Maybe it can be ascribed to the current political climate in the US regarding the Police (and not just there, as in Brazil for instance the thing would get very contentious).

[Knightingale]

It seems not.

But the book provides:

-Rules for specific Hunt modes
- Rules for specialist roles within Inquisition cells
- True Faith and Hedge Magic merits
- Rules on building a Inquisition cell similar to Coterie rules

Reverse engineering seems quite easy, much more than the sadly lacking Sabbat book, which really should have incorporated Khelil's rules.

As for why not generally allowing Hunters to join the Orgs in 2nd Inquisition book, I think it's a bad decision. Maybe it can be ascribed to the current political climate in the US regarding the Police (and not just there, as in Brazil for instance the thing would get very contentious).

The rules you mention there are meant to create NPCs and give structure to the opposition vampires face when they go up against the Second Inquisition. Like, the "rules for specialist roles" is a section with character-types and statblocks and specific rules to include them as NPCs. The True Faith you mention are dot-ratings to express the power of NPCs/locations, they are not Merits. The Magic rules accordingly are barebones because they are solely meant to be used by STs for NPCs. "Reverse-engineering" that would be quite the task because the mechanics are streamlined in order to be applicable to NPCs and what actions they can take. These mechanics are not meant to be put into the hands of players.

Just to correct the inaccurate description you provide there.

At least we can agree on that the way H5 deals with hunter-organizations is bad. Although just focusing on that as a critique is a bit of an understatement because there are a lot of other issues with the book as well.

[Helur]

It seems not.

But the book provides:

-Rules for specific Hunt modes
- Rules for specialist roles within Inquisition cells
- True Faith and Hedge Magic merits
- Rules on building a Inquisition cell similar to Coterie rules

Reverse engineering seems quite easy, much more than the sadly lacking Sabbat book, which really should have incorporated Khelil's rules.

As for why not generally allowing Hunters to join the Orgs in 2nd Inquisition book, I think it's a bad decision. Maybe it can be ascribed to the current political climate in the US regarding the Police (and not just there, as in Brazil for instance the thing would get very contentious).

I really don't get how people can go ''by the book'' regarding narrative stuff like no chance to join an org.
We REALLY don't give a fuck about it. Every player I had wants to deal with the fact the he doesn't want to play a ''good guy'' at all. I had guys who played Brujah who controlled the italian BR as much as Casapound, or genocidal Talon as much as the humanized one who recognize his human side until he does something very bad because of it's nature and maybe enjoying it.
I may understand WHY they wrote it, but if you create something with a lot of shades of gray and very realistic and complicated structure and you say ''you can't play it'', it's normal that a LOT of people are going to play it anyway. Same with the new terrorist-like Sabbat. Everyone wanted to try a single-path pack only to role play philosophical discussions and terrorist like operation under cover.
I already have people asking to me to play the Fenris in w5 exactly because their are going to be psycho zealots. Maybe it's an italian thing. I dunno.

Reminds me about the pure in first edition of forsaken.

[Heavy Arms]

I play RAW,..

Doubtful. I'm sure you think you do, but I'm 99.9% sure you consider "ignoring 75% of the RAW and not replacing them with anything but ST fiat," to not count as houseruling the game and running it RAW to get away with your mental gymnastics.

So, the point was that nothing in V5 played against me having a gonzo campaign, or an Ancillae praxis game, which was my main game for a couple years.

I've played the V5 playtests. I've looked at the combat rules and how little they fixed any of it from them. "Gonzo' is laughable on that alone. Then there's the idea that you're running Touchstones RAW in a gonzo fashion which just doesn't work because any gonzo game is going to be a stain fest without some house rules to keep your Touchstones from being damaged and destroyed, and then losing all your Convictions so you can't mitigate Chronicle Tenet stains while on your wild adventures.

"Ancillae praxis" is a largely meaningless phrase. The system for social conflicts is actively hostile towards politics because it works like combat with WP as your health and the audience with damage, so any reasonably skilled vampire can just humiliate you in front of the price and mechanically for you into bad deals or devastate your WP, hitting you with impaired so you're even worse at things, and then keep going until you slink back off. The mechanics are actively hostile to punching up, because it's so heavily favored for the side that's already got the advantages. Ancillae running around keeping neonates in-check instead of fledglings doing chores is the same game with more steps.

BTW, before V20 Core provided 6+ powers in the main book, all the prior Editions of Vampire assumed that you played a Fledgeling, recently embraced (up to 50 years, said the Revised Corebook).

V20 putting the Elder powers in the core has nothing to do with the default starting point of the games. Which is neonate, not fledgling, as the PCs are assumed to have graduated from fledgling status.

In any case, I don' think we will be able to bridge our differences in this discussion, we have a way too great different opinion on the subject of V5 and its flaws.

What a shock, the poster that has no interest in anything that doesn't prove that V5 is flawless but pretends to entertain discussion just like pretending to care about politeness doesn't think there's a way to "bridge" differences. Of course it's impossible to bridge differences when you refuse to remotely acknowledge the reality of what you've been saying.

[Asmodai]

It seems not.

But the book provides:

-Rules for specific Hunt modes
- Rules for specialist roles within Inquisition cells
- True Faith and Hedge Magic merits
- Rules on building a Inquisition cell similar to Coterie rules

Ok. Could you possibly walk me through making a PC group of Second Inquistion characters using the material in this book and the Core Vampire book? What points you get, how these things are valued, are they merits or powers and how they function with each other?

Reverse engineering seems quite easy...

Weren't these books meant for beginners?

[Metalbird]

Apart of that debate, I want to point something about the actual situation and it's the possible delay of the V5 Player Guide. I mean the Player Guide supposedly to be out in summer accord to the White Wolf wikia. We are now in September and in one week we will be officially in autumn and for what I see there are no news, only silence. Is it in delay? If thats the case Renegade and Achilli has its days counted and ,also, the Player Guide has a curse or something. Because we would have a two lines in delay and a third bornt dead. Overall even if it isn't the case, W5 needs to be an extremely good game to clean the mess is made with the antagonist books and H5 to compensate Paradox (or alternatively the new announced books). Another splat that follows the trajectory of H5 only it could be an one step more for the edition inside its tomb.

[MrNatas]

Slightly off-topic, but the lack of a playable Second Inquisition is odd. These guys scored a huge victory over the vampires and so are actually in the best situation they've ever been in. Yet the focus is solely on the good ol' boys with guns and knives. Presenting these organizations as something you don't want to be part of is also kind of baffling, as the street level hunters can be equally corrupt if even more so since they have no oversight.

I understand that the focus is on the street level, but it is clearly to the detriment of the game.

I think this has to do more with how WoD5 is presented. The situation is a us vs the man where the player is placed as the lowest of the low. What I find really hilarious about H5 in particular is that it wants to say 'the SI actually isn't organized at all and is made up of all this groups that are at each other's throats' but, everything we've seen from the SI is that they are organized and deadly to the point of being able to take out key targets and develop very impressive weapons.

Just to note; if we are going by 100% cannon (saying that all materials regardless of source are cannon) then the SI has a weapon called 'Velum Sanctuarii' which is a chemical that effects on Kindred flesh similar to exposure to the sun and doesn't effect humans and human don't even perceive it. So what is stopping the SI from using this in every city? Bloodhunt was a mistake.

To loop this back to W5, this us VS the man kind of mentality is part of the reason I feel the Get was made to 'fall to gaia.' So that way even if you are fighting for Gaia you'd have something against you. Though this would imply that the devs thought all Gaian creatures worked together which everything we've seen isn't even close to true.

Reverse engineering seems quite easy

I've avoided jumping into this but I found this statement really interesting especially when you also said "I play RAW, I do not like houseruling." So what exactly is reverse engineering to you? So you talk about being able to do all these thing but talk about making up things and adding options. Like when talking about assamite caste you said "Vizier, Sorcerors and Warriors per DA20 all had different Quietus powers, that could be different Blood Sorcery powers." And yes they could be but, that would be homebrewing which is exactly what everyone is saying.

Maybe I'm not understand you point here. You seem to being saying that V5 allows you to have a frame work to make options? How is that different then any other game. What makes V5 better equipped for you to make these then V20 or even 1E? I'm not trying to be pedantic but, you position makes no sense to me at given what you said.

I can only look at monteparnas post on this subject and ask the same thing. "While your only consistent argument in favor of V5 is that your experience is fine. Why should I care?" All you've seen to do is show that you have the inverse of the ingrained prejudices against V5 and instead have an ingrained impartiality.

To state something, you enjoying a game doesn't make the system good. There are plenty of bad systems out there that you can have a fun game with friends. You experiences with it only carry that you are having a good time but, does nothing to the bad time others have. You basically are stating that "We'll I had fun so you are just not trying hard enough." And I'm sorry to say but, that's a bullshit stance to take.

[thebiglarpnerd]

Apart of that debate, I want to point something about the actual situation and it's the possible delay of the V5 Player Guide. I mean the Player Guide supposedly to be out in summer accord to the White Wolf wikia. We are now in September and in one week we will be officially in autumn and for what I see there are no news, only silence. Is it in delay? If thats the case Renegade and Achilli has its days counted and ,also, the Player Guide has a curse or something. Because we would have a two lines in delay and a third bornt dead. Overall even if it isn't the case, W5 needs to be an extremely good game to clean the mess is made with the antagonist books and H5 to compensate Paradox (or alternatively the new announced books). Another splat that follows the trajectory of H5 only it could be an one step more for the edition inside its tomb.

less that and more that people lose their minds when theyre given a date and it isn't hit

this fandom especially goes for the throat at that

if you look at how they did sabbat etc recently they wont talk about it til a month or so before its ready

they just dont want to deal with the shittiness of this fandom with an early announced date and a missed date

[Asmodai]

less that and more that people lose their minds when theyre given a date and it isn't hit

this fandom especially goes for the throat at that

if you look at how they did sabbat etc recently they wont talk about it til a month or so before its ready

they just dont want to deal with the shittiness of this fandom with an early announced date and a missed date

That does feel unnecessarily harsh and confrontational. It's not like people have been complaining about that.

Besides, it's not like it's much different in the rest of the RPG industry. I just got a book that was supposed to be out 5 months ago, and I am just happy it's not later. Everything was plagued by delays in production even before covid. As long as I hear it's still coming (better yet if I get an early access PDF), I'm happy. I think most people into RPG's should be used to it.

[Asmodai]

Ok, so far I've been told by you people in an increasingly aggressive way that my opinions are incorrect and anecdotical (because my experience is not valid, but the ones of "regular posters" are tried and true).

Then I'm called an extremist and someone who wants to stoke an edition war because reasons. The fact I'm being polite is also ridiculed with increasing aggressivity.

Now I'm also in bad faith, because I'm actually trying to provide concrete context to what I'm saying. And it's not like you people are ignoring me as: there's been more an effort to actively discredit me as an interlocutor.

All the meanwhile, the "hard facts" provided against V5 "lack of releases and scarce page count" were unfounded, and my words are manipulated out of context.

To better end the discussion, I'm also being told that, basically, I should be ignored because my opinions are not relevant and I don't get your points.

That's... very weird behaviour in a discussion forum. And I don't really think I'm the one in bad faith, here.

Anyway...

Anyway, I do feel I need to address this. This is not about you or your game, Manfr. You clearly know your Vampire and have managed to twist V5 into a shape that suits you. In no way is anyone here going for you personally. You're fine, your opinion is fine and your game is fine. There's no hill to die on here.

The discussion here is about something else. Everyone here has been fixing WoD games for a couple of decades now at their table and they know what to do with these games. What we are faced with is a stance by developers to make a game needs even more fixing to work how we want it to. So we can spend more money on something that is not fulfilling our needs and we need to spend even more time to get it working like we want. And when we protest the direction and style of the books we are told this is as intended and that if we want something else we can play something else. It's not a nice feeling for someone who is invested in it.

The reason people have taken offense to your stance that just because you fixed it they need to as well to have fun with the current version of their game. Just like your opinion that V5 works great forever, ours is that it doesn't. What happens when people disagree they argue, and there are a lot of arguments to why V5 doesn't fill the holes old Vampire didn't and why the changes to W5 are antithetical to Werewolf. You keep responding to them with "But It Works for me!" Which is probably true, but isn't a universal constant and is proof of your experience and commitment to V5 more than it is to the designers work on the game. A good game shouldn't need an extraordinary storyteller with a backlog of games to get it to work for them.

[Manfr]

Anyway, I do feel I need to address this. This is not about you or your game, Manfr. You clearly know your Vampire and have managed to twist V5 into a shape that suits you. In no way is anyone here going for you personally. You're fine, your opinion is fine and your game is fine. There's no hill to die on here.

The discussion here is about something else. Everyone here has been fixing WoD games for a couple of decades now at their table and they know what to do with these games. What we are faced with is a stance by developers to make a game needs even more fixing to work how we want it to. So we can spend more money on something that is not fulfilling our needs and we need to spend even more time to get it working like we want. And when we protest the direction and style of the books we are told this is as intended and that if we want something else we can play something else. It's not a nice feeling for someone who is invested in it.

The reason people have taken offense to your stance that just because you fixed it they need to as well to have fun with the current version of their game. Just like your opinion that V5 works great forever, ours is that it doesn't. What happens when people disagree they argue, and there are a lot of arguments to why V5 doesn't fill the holes old Vampire didn't and why the changes to W5 are antithetical to Werewolf. You keep responding to them with "But It Works for me!" Which is probably true, but isn't a universal constant and is proof of your experience and commitment to V5 more than it is to the designers work on the game. A good game shouldn't need an extraordinary storyteller with a backlog of games to get it to work for them.

Thank you, I appreciate your words, really.

What I was trying to say is that I was able to use V5 RAW to run most of the common playstyles of old, without finding the need for fixes or houserulings: I run many one shots for our association and at events, so I try not to alter rules a lot.

Of course my experience may be different from others', who may find V5 extremely lacking: this doesn't mean my playstyle is better or V5 is flawless, it's just the system I prefer, and I like to share my experience, may it be interesting or useful to others.

That's all, but I suppose my command of English is more lacking than I've thought, as I haven't been able to get the message out properly.

It's better to end my argument here and give the thread back to those wishing to discuss W5 and Forsaken.

[Asmodai]

What I was trying to say is that I was able to use V5 RAW to run most of the common playstyles of old, without finding the need for fixes or houserulings: I run many one shots for our association and at events, so I try not to alter rules a lot.

Of course my experience may be different from others', who may find V5 extremely lacking: this doesn't mean my playstyle is better or V5 is flawless, it's just the system I prefer, and I like to share my experience, may it be interesting or useful to others.

Honestly, I totally wouldn't mind hearing how you set things up (not in this thread of course). For instance I am really curious how you see the SI material as PC material, I'm curious how you handle stains, messy criticals, crippling injuries, large amounts of hunger after using a lot of powers in a short period or long combat in a game that's more gonzo toned.

[Knightingale]

less that and more that people lose their minds when theyre given a date and it isn't hit

this fandom especially goes for the throat at that

if you look at how they did sabbat etc recently they wont talk about it til a month or so before its ready

they just dont want to deal with the shittiness of this fandom with an early announced date and a missed date

Well, sure it's shitty but shit happens... Announcing a release date and not meeting it for whatever reason... It is what it is. Nothing you can do about it. But the question is how then do you deal with the fallout of that happening? And I think the issue here is that simply not saying anything isn't exactly a solution. When there's no official answer, people are gonna find their own. Some will be optimistic, some pessimistic and some will be assholes. No doubt about that.

But that's why you can't just stay silent. A release date is a promise to the public that at that point this product will be available. There are millions of possible scenarios explaining why the V5 Players Guide wasn't released this Summer and it shouldn't be up to the public to start guessing which scenarios are the most likely.

The other thing with simply not telling the public about something until a month before its release when it's ready. They're not currently doing that either. We know what's in the pipeline for Renegade. But unlike with the V5 Players Guide we have an even vaguer understanding of what the release schedule looks like. And we get no updates on where things are in terms of development. In this particular case, I think, WOD fans can act a little spoiled considering how much transparency Onyx Path provides (Manuscript Previews through Kickstarter, public Errata, Monday Meeting Notes etc.) but of course, that isn't the norm (although personally, I think a greater degree of transparency and community outreach are better than just staying silent and not talk to the fanbase).

Now W5 is in a weird spot in that regard because Paradox decided to switch teams and Justin Achilli and Renegade Games have restarted the project. So W5 was announced ages ago but due to what happened, there's been a huge delay in getting W5 out the door. So who knows how that has impacted the development-process for Justin Achilli and Renegade. Even though I have my trepidations when it comes to Justin Achilli and Renegade considering how much I wasn't a fan of H5, I certainly hope that the reason W5 may end up being bad isn't that Paradox demanded that they gonna rush this one out the door. And I have to speculate here because there's no steady stream of meaningful updates on the progress of development with these WOD5 books of course.

[CTPhipps]

Doubtful. I'm sure you think you do, but I'm 99.9% sure you consider "ignoring 75% of the RAW and not replacing them with anything but ST fiat," to not count as houseruling the game and running it RAW to get away with your mental gymnastics.

You are being hostile, dial it down or leave.

[Lashet]

Returning to W5, if it's gonna be Forsaken-ed - probably, Garou gonna protect the balance between Umbra and Reality?
I mean, it's still unclear WHAT they going to do.