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  • Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
    Probably because learning from past design results, changing things that feel in need of changing for modern audiences, etc is a methodology not world building to make two separate settings actually similar and that the context of such flanderized comparisons is predominately negative in presentation, "They're removing/changing X, Y, Z it's just Requiem/Forsaken/etc with the serial numbers filed off now!!!"

    Rather than an actual substantive examination of either. Like how people glanced at words in V5 like "Blood Potency" or "Touchstones" when it came out and didn't bother to look at things like the limitations of Touchstones in V5 compared to Requiem or the whole mechanical infrastructure CofD has for them in contrast or how the functionality of Blood Potency in both games is not similar save a vague notion of "being a stronger vampire." The surface level criticisms that end up dominating so many social media arenas on this particular subject is, again, exhausting. it also tends to drown out voices that actually are looking at details.
    I am a bit compelled to mention this but from what I gathered the reason behind that is people don't want to compare them. Throughout a lot of talks involving requiem I don't think anyone's tried to compare them beyond the occasional "Requiem does touchstones better." Or "Touchstones shouldn't be in V5"

    This is also goes into the account that the really hardcore and older fans aren't really willing to listen or are willing to ignore. I don't mean this as an offence if a person doesn't like WtF that's fine but whenever people do the comparison between them it is usually using 1e and from what I can tell only hearing what 2e is like without actually reading it.

    Like people hear about WtF having touchstones and compare it to requiem or V5 without realizing that the vast majority of cofd games that use touchstones are nearly all different. Like a vampires touchstone is different from a Sin Eaters who's different from a werewolf.

    A sin eater is trying to resolve there's while a werewolf is trying to balance there's out for example.

    But everytime they usually come up from people who don't read cofd it's just comparing to Requiems touchstones.

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    • Um, I'm going to agree with Rabbit on the reason there aren't more long in-depths analyses of things like comparing Touchstones:

      Those of us that have the interest in such deep dives? We did them Years ago. Multiple times. I don't know about some of the others, but I'm not interested in spending 30 minutes to an hour writing yet another essay on such things that covers all the details on how things are different between VtR and V5 - including the wider context of the CofD 2e systems - only for it to barely be paid attention to in one thread; and completely forgotten about the next five threads that touch on the same issues.

      We also can't do a deep dive on W5's take on things, because we don't have W5 to do that with (also I don't even know what I'm going to look at a copy because I have no intention of buying it, and the person I borrow V5 books from so I could do thorough comparisons stopped buying V5 stuff and doesn't intent on getting H5 or W5 stuff either).

      If there's no real impact in doing those big detailed analyses of pre-V5 cWoD, WoD 5 stuff, and CofD 1e and 2e stuff (and hell, I've tossed in ST Rev. and Storypath in some times) because everyone wants to go back to the simply talking points? The big essays dry up. I don't get paid enough to do them, because I don't get paid to be here.
      Last edited by Heavy Arms; 09-24-2022, 05:11 PM.

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      • The "substantive examination" did happen, though. It happened when V5 came out, it happened when H5 came out and it will happen when W5 comes out. What ends up dominating, though, I think is the fact that like for V5 I'm sure Paradox hoped that letting official releases for V20 and VtR dry up would lead to fans of both turning towards the newer V5. Instead, fans of V20, VtR and V5 are three distinct niche-markets with some overlap. There are people who only like one of the three, just two of the three, or all three. Though, it doesn't get always expressed through detailed analysis. It's the internet after all.

        And the same will happen to W5, I'm sure. There will be comparisons between W20, WtF and W5 and we will have people who only like one of those, two or all three. And those of us who are really invested will spend time in threads like these writing about that. I'm pretty sure at least some of it will even contain in-depth analysis.

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        • I think part of the complexity of the "three silos" state we're in, is that before V5, the "two silos" were starting to get less constrained. The 20th books and the CofD 2e managed to be written in a fashion that allowed greater coexistence as they were actively moving in different directions. Instead of VtR being the thing trying to replace VtM completely, it was a different take on Vampire. It got easier to be fan of both, or play in the one you preferred less, without constantly comparing it to the other when the shortcomings of each one came up.

          V5 borrowing as much from VtR as it did, ended up undoing a lot of the easing of tensions between WoD and CofD fans. And thus people are very concerned this will become a trend.

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          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            I think part of the complexity of the "three silos" state we're in, is that before V5, the "two silos" were starting to get less constrained. The 20th books and the CofD 2e managed to be written in a fashion that allowed greater coexistence as they were actively moving in different directions. Instead of VtR being the thing trying to replace VtM completely, it was a different take on Vampire. It got easier to be fan of both, or play in the one you preferred less, without constantly comparing it to the other when the shortcomings of each one came up.

            V5 borrowing as much from VtR as it did, ended up undoing a lot of the easing of tensions between WoD and CofD fans. And thus people are very concerned this will become a trend.
            I imagine from Paradox's perspective the issue with the "two silos" before WOD5 is that it isn't "one silo" and what WOD5 is there to do is create "one silo" for the WOD IP. The issue is, as you said, the "two silos" existed for a while and managed to run parallel to each other quite efficiently. And so part of WOD5's failure is that rather than create this "one silo" they aimed for all they did was create a "third silo". Personally, I'm doubtful that at the point V5 came out it was even feasible to bring these "two silos" together and make them obsolete with a new edition. But considering how Paradox is dealing with CofD and WOD20th I assume that was and still is the goal. And so when W5 eventually gets released, the thinking in the discussion we have in forums like this one won't be "Oh neat, here's the new edition of WtA.", it will be "How does this compare to W20 and WtF...?" because there are "three silos" now.

            Comment


            • I'm not so sure about that assumption about how nWW/Paradox viewed the CofD when they bought it. Martin, when discussing such things, was always very clear that they were never going to unify everything into one silo. The goal was to keep it to two silos. The problem was how they went about doing it. Again, we heard from Martin directly about this. When trying to decide to try to bring the WoD back to the primary IP based on brand power, or the CofD getting the forefront on a strong starting point mechanically for their goals and already "rebooting" a lot of things they knew needed to change... both options were picking one silo to make the bigger silo.

              As I say far too often, what went wrong was the execution. When nWW/Paradox decided on the WoD for brand strength, they didn't lean into the brand's strengths, and end up trying to move stuff from the CofD silo into the WoD silo... which was at least a symptom of the design mentality that lead to having three silos now instead.

              And honestly, I don't think Paradox really has a plan for all this. They just seem to be steaming ahead with WoD5 and hoping that it will take off big enough to make the oWoD and CofD fans obsolete.... despite none of the public facing information (as little as we have) supporting that end result ever happening.

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              • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                And honestly, I don't think Paradox really has a plan for all this. They just seem to be steaming ahead with WoD5 and hoping that it will take off big enough to make the oWoD and CofD fans obsolete.... despite none of the public facing information (as little as we have) supporting that end result ever happening.
                I got the Impression Paradox was focused on the idea WoD5 as a multi media cash cow which would manage itself. They seem to have prefered vtm due to brand recognition but Martins sales pitch might also be an issue. their disinterest in cofd might be a reflection of v5 era white wolf antipathy as much as anything.
                Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-25-2022, 12:56 PM.

                Comment


                • While we're getting off topic a bit here, I honestly don't know how to divine Paradox's thinking on the CofD. No possible position they have matches their acts as a company.

                  If they really wanted to kill the CofD as competition for WoD5, they should rip off the bandaid and actually kill it. Taking one big bad PR hit now is, as far as I can conceive, better than dragging it on in some slow attempt to starve the CofD. The emerging narrative of Paradox as trying to starve the CofD by not allowing new books just makes Paradox look untrustworthy as stewards of IPs they buy. Most people are quicker to forgive a bigger but honest negative move (cancelling the CofD completely, and even removing it from DTRPG if that's what they really want) than a series of small negative ones that feel dishonest (the dribble of books that never seem to get OKed by Paradox that leaves OPP, freelancers, and CofD fans frustrated).

                  There isn't really a way to square it from a purely financial position either. They paid a lot of money for the CofD. There's no way OPP at its current CofD publication rate and the STV are going to turn into profits any time soon (that is, whatever valuation the CofD made up of Paradox's acquisition is still being paid off). As there's no real evidence that CofD sales hurt WoD5 sales (esp. with WoD5 getting vastly more infrastructure support for international sales, print sales, and so on), Paradox should either be rubber stamping CofD books to increase the positive flow of money to them, or just sell off the CofD because they have no intention of doing anything with it they either haven't done, or don't actually need ownership rights to do. If they're not going to develop the CofD as its own property (which would be easier if OPP was free to keep making as many books as they pitch too), they'll make more money selling it that keeping it (though maybe there's some tax incentive locally I don't know about?).

                  There's just nothing I can come up with that is a consistent corporate attitude towards a product they own, and their actions towards its future.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    There's just nothing I can come up with that is a consistent corporate attitude towards a product they own, and their actions towards its future.
                    That's one of the reasons I think a huge problem here is that they're stepping out of their core business. Seems like a company applying the wrong assumptions to a project, either because it's how things work in their core business, or simply they don't have know-how in the area and are just guessing things.

                    Also, there's a good chance it is a pet project for some directors but not a big concern for others. While there's certainly an investment, I have the feeling that it isn't getting enough attention from the company's administration. I'm not sure how to describe it, but I do have this impression of someone pulling all the string based on passion, but at the same time the company isn't really focused.


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                    • As far as anything close to being confirmed, the person in Paradox's org chart that's the biggest fan of the WW suite of IPs is Fredrick Wester, who was CEO when Paradox bought things, had to "step down" to chair of the board, and took back over as CEO about a year ago after his replacement resigned (Paradox has been dealing with internal company culture issues that seems to be the sources of all of that).

                      It being the CEO's pet project, while the company is dealing with a bunch of internal structural issues and minor scandals, does imply a lot of why the decisions around it all are so messy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        While we're getting off topic a bit here, I honestly don't know how to divine Paradox's thinking on the CofD. No possible position they have matches their acts as a company.

                        If they really wanted to kill the CofD as competition for WoD5, they should rip off the bandaid and actually kill it. Taking one big bad PR hit now is, as far as I can conceive, better than dragging it on in some slow attempt to starve the CofD. The emerging narrative of Paradox as trying to starve the CofD by not allowing new books just makes Paradox look untrustworthy as stewards of IPs they buy. Most people are quicker to forgive a bigger but honest negative move (cancelling the CofD completely, and even removing it from DTRPG if that's what they really want) than a series of small negative ones that feel dishonest (the dribble of books that never seem to get OKed by Paradox that leaves OPP, freelancers, and CofD fans frustrated).

                        There isn't really a way to square it from a purely financial position either. They paid a lot of money for the CofD. There's no way OPP at its current CofD publication rate and the STV are going to turn into profits any time soon (that is, whatever valuation the CofD made up of Paradox's acquisition is still being paid off). As there's no real evidence that CofD sales hurt WoD5 sales (esp. with WoD5 getting vastly more infrastructure support for international sales, print sales, and so on), Paradox should either be rubber stamping CofD books to increase the positive flow of money to them, or just sell off the CofD because they have no intention of doing anything with it they either haven't done, or don't actually need ownership rights to do. If they're not going to develop the CofD as its own property (which would be easier if OPP was free to keep making as many books as they pitch too), they'll make more money selling it that keeping it (though maybe there's some tax incentive locally I don't know about?).

                        There's just nothing I can come up with that is a consistent corporate attitude towards a product they own, and their actions towards its future.
                        I mostly read it is a very bad attempt at having their cake and eating it too, or chasing two rabbits in a scenario where it's very clear they won't catch either. It fits with the narrative they've been establishing for themselves of taking half measures that pull away from each other. Given some of the internal strife, It wouldn't surprise me if the people passing the ball around also had very different ideas on how to handles Chronicles.


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                        • so,the general consensus among us is that Paradox won't approve anymore cofd books on hopes of having only the wod? gosh i hope this isn'ttrue,i have indeed defended wod5 a lot because i like this edition of the wod games,but i would hate for the cofd to die for it' benefit

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                          • While the end result isn't much different, the view is slightly different; and important because it could improve. Mostly it seems more like Paradox has internal factions that want different things out of CofD books, so most pitches are failing because they hit a deadlock of differing interests, with only a few threading the needle to make everyone over there happy. If Paradox can get a better idea of what they want out of the CofD and unify that vision among leadership, it would probably mean CofD starts picking back up (obvious unless that unity is just to cancel the line completely, but I don't see that winning because it's a waste of a few hundred thousand dollars).

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                            • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              While the end result isn't much different, the view is slightly different; and important because it could improve. Mostly it seems more like Paradox has internal factions that want different things out of CofD books, so most pitches are failing because they hit a deadlock of differing interests, with only a few threading the needle to make everyone over there happy. If Paradox can get a better idea of what they want out of the CofD and unify that vision among leadership, it would probably mean CofD starts picking back up (obvious unless that unity is just to cancel the line completely, but I don't see that winning because it's a waste of a few hundred thousand dollars).
                              thanks heavy arms

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                              • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                                so,the general consensus among us is that Paradox won't approve anymore cofd books on hopes of having only the wod? gosh i hope this isn'ttrue,i have indeed defended wod5 a lot because i like this edition of the wod games,but i would hate for the cofd to die for it' benefit
                                I wouldn't call it a consensus. Just a fear, due to how they are presenting the stuff and how much they are insisting on one true way for everything. I think that the OP license is also currently up for extension, so I assume we'll know more soon (TM).


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