Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

[Ana Mizuki]

At the core of it, my issue is that they could have had any other ban to show they are -not- using the W-creature anymore. But they did not.


To be honest, I still have to ponder, why are Red Talons kept? Out of all the tribes, they are the ones that do not get played often and are generally seen as little more than NPC antagonists. Unless they now allow homids among them? But still, Talons are the tribe I'd cut before I'd cut Fenrir or Gazers. Involving them in the game is often very hard and often not worth it.

Mind, I LIKE the tribe. I'm just thinking what is best for W5.

[werewolf43]

I am afraid that Red Talons might be completely different tribe now. Maby they will take role of Get partly, being heavy hitter among tribes. The roles of the tribes could have completely changed. I do not attach importance of the older editions knowledge suspecting a complete remodeling of the tribes.

[Ana Mizuki]

I am afraid that Red Talons might be completely different tribe now. Maby they will take role of Get partly, being heavy hitter among tribes. The roles of the tribes could have completely changed. I do not attach importance of the older editions knowledge suspecting a complete remodeling of the tribes.

I hate to use V5 as an example, but most V5 clans do have their core concepts intact.

Besides, if you are going to redo the Red Talons to make them Fenrir, why not just remake Fenrir?

[Heavy Arms]

I don't see skepticsim...

"You're wrong because I refuse to listen," isn't really convincing. I gave a whole list of places the preview provides concerns for me. You're not actually showing anything that's misplaced about them. That's not optimism vs. pessimism. That's just you being dismissive.,

I am totally happy about being excited for a re imagined werewolf and living it with positivity.

I have that already. It's called Werewolf the Forsaken. It's an awesome game. I don't want to be sold Werewolf the Apocalypse products that aren't about providing me a better Werewolf the Apocalypse experience, but rather just a new spin on Werewolf.

Honestly I'm still very happy about those GaleStalkers tribe.

Why? What's to love about "we changed the name, but none of the racism?" Since that's basically all we know right now.

What do you actually love about this tiny preview so much, that you're willing to be so nasty to other people that didn't respond so well?

Your comparisons looks forced to me but I have no intention to discuss something you seems extremely sure about it in an empirical way.

Like this. This is a low blow. You don't want to discuss what's actually there because... why? If you're right you could actually say more than, "I love it and anyone that doesn't is just a hater."

If an empirical view of the game is so scary to you, it seems pretty clear the issue is your unearned fantasy, not anyone's undue pessimism.

I regard creativity and artistic freedom above all else, and that is why I really like what I saw yesterday.

And again, another nasty low blow. You're saying that not liking the preview is equatable to hating creativity and artistic freedom.

And what creativity or artistic freedom was even on display? W5 isn't some lone writer sitting down and cranking out their perfect artistic vision, It's going to be the work of at least a dozen people, who's artistic freedoms are going to be directly constrained by the corporate interests of Paradox (and Paradox has well demonstrated that they're willing to exert that power over Werewolf in the past, so there's no evidence that this is an unrealistic concern).

What did we really learn about W5?

They listened to at least some surface level sensitivity reading. There's a distinct lack of creativity in how they addressed the issues at hand (Patron was already a common alternative word for Totem, Horned Serpent is a direct translation of Uktena, North Wind was already a spirit heavily associated with Younger Brother in the older books, Galestalkers and Ghost Council are bland if improved names).

The Tribes are going to be somewhat less tied to human ethnic and cultural groups and have linked Renown, and Renown is going to empower Gifts somehow, everyone gets a Tribal bonus, and a Tribal ban? OK, that's not creativity, that's just learning from Forsaken (even if they will probably do something different with the mechanics so it's not a direct rip there).

Give me one full solid example of something in the preview that actually demonstrates creativity and artistic freedom in any sort of meaningful fashion.

[Heavy Arms]

I hate to use V5 as an example, but most V5 clans do have their core concepts intact.

Besides, if you are going to redo the Red Talons to make them Fenrir, why not just remake Fenrir?

Additionally, from previous teasers about the game, the Fenrir still exist in the setting even if they've become something else and aren't playable now. Other Tribes might try t move in to fill the gap they left, but thee isn't going to be a "new Get Tribe."

We've been told that the Get "fell" in some fashion, and the Stargazers just left. Redoing the Red Talons to be the new Get as if they were always taking that role doesn't make any sense if the Get left in the past ten or twenty years of the setting. If the game represents previous teasers, in its writing, there should be a Fenrir shaped hole in the Nation.

[werewolf43]

You are right. I'm afraid that some time has passed since the teasers, so I wouldn't expect that something of it is up to date. I have my assupmtions about Get falling and if I'm right it will be like kick to the balls - I think that they will make them :brutal caern stealers/ nazis / honorless tribe/ nazis!/ primitive frenzied antagonists trying to secure or take by force as many places of power as they can cause only they can stop the Apocalypse/ and of course nazis.

[Helur]

"You're wrong because I refuse to listen," isn't really convincing. I gave a whole list of places the preview provides concerns for me. You're not actually showing anything that's misplaced about them. That's not optimism vs. pessimism. That's just you being dismissive.,



I have that already. It's called Werewolf the Forsaken. It's an awesome game. I don't want to be sold Werewolf the Apocalypse products that aren't about providing me a better Werewolf the Apocalypse experience, but rather just a new spin on Werewolf.



Why? What's to love about "we changed the name, but none of the racism?" Since that's basically all we know right now.

What do you actually love about this tiny preview so much, that you're willing to be so nasty to other people that didn't respond so well?



Like this. This is a low blow. You don't want to discuss what's actually there because... why? If you're right you could actually say more than, "I love it and anyone that doesn't is just a hater."

If an empirical view of the game is so scary to you, it seems pretty clear the issue is your unearned fantasy, not anyone's undue pessimism.



And again, another nasty low blow. You're saying that not liking the preview is equatable to hating creativity and artistic freedom.

And what creativity or artistic freedom was even on display? W5 isn't some lone writer sitting down and cranking out their perfect artistic vision, It's going to be the work of at least a dozen people, who's artistic freedoms are going to be directly constrained by the corporate interests of Paradox (and Paradox has well demonstrated that they're willing to exert that power over Werewolf in the past, so there's no evidence that this is an unrealistic concern).

What did we really learn about W5?

They listened to at least some surface level sensitivity reading. There's a distinct lack of creativity in how they addressed the issues at hand (Patron was already a common alternative word for Totem, Horned Serpent is a direct translation of Uktena, North Wind was already a spirit heavily associated with Younger Brother in the older books, Galestalkers and Ghost Council are bland if improved names).

The Tribes are going to be somewhat less tied to human ethnic and cultural groups and have linked Renown, and Renown is going to empower Gifts somehow, everyone gets a Tribal bonus, and a Tribal ban? OK, that's not creativity, that's just learning from Forsaken (even if they will probably do something different with the mechanics so it's not a direct rip there).

Give me one full solid example of something in the preview that actually demonstrates creativity and artistic freedom in any sort of meaningful fashion.

First of, calm down and change your tone if you want answers from me.
"Low blow" talking in a forum just saying that I like what I see ?

Jesus Christ , what a drama.
I like the keywords I see, I like the general vibe the preview gave to us, and I like the concepts explained in the article. What's wrong about that ? Absolutely nothing. No ethnic backgrounds, admission about re imagine the game without a continuity, nice concepts with zero ties with the older tribes , there is a tribe with North Wind as patron that must hunt and kill and eat flesh, with zero ties with native Americans or other cultures like every tribe will be. I see only malice in wanting to find something offensive in something which is clearly not.

And that it's all from me if you intention is to create a drama about low blows discussing a game that at the end of the day you plays as you wish. I just gave my point of view, and you are putting words that I didnt say in mouth like I think that you are hating creativity. I said that I saw negativity and look at the thread , it's just the truth.
Its clearly not the historical werewolf the apocalypse and they had the intellectual honesty to say it in the article.

[Heavy Arms]

First of, calm down and change your tone if you want answers from me.

I was perfectly calm when I wrote that, and if you want a better tone from me, start with a better tone yourself.

"Low blow" talking in a forum just saying that I like what I see ?

No, the "low blows," are when you start making implications about people that didn't like what you liked.

"This is a new game inspired by the original. Therefore those are not the wendigo and they have nothing to do with them." Is not just you saying what you like, it's you dismissing what people are pointing out about the preview.
"...right now, as we say in italy , don't wrap your head too early." Again, not you taking about liking stuff, but telling other people how to react to it.
"I don't see skepticsim but more like total pessimism and the will to attack the new edition because just yes." Again, this isn't you just talking about you liking stuff.

I didn't call your poss low blows because of you, "just saying that I like what I see," but because of things like all the quotes above. If you want nicer tones and less drama, take a look at yourself for a bit.

What's wrong about that ? Absolutely nothing.

Sure. Doesn't actually address anything I said though.

No ethnic backgrounds,...

The preview never says this. You're inferring things that aren't there. The preview makes it clear that Garou join Tribes in a less familial context and a more spiritual one. It doesn't say that the Tribes don't have ethnic or cultural ties to human groups.

The Black Furies still have a Greek mythological creature for a Patron.
The Fianna are still named the Fianna.
The Galestalkers and Ghost Council are still obvious reskins of Younger and Older Brother. As I've noted Horned Serpent is just translating a Native American word used for one of the old Tribe/Totem names into English. The Ghost Council is also a fairly on the nose reference to the Ghost Dance of Native American culture as well.

[quote[...admission about re imagine the game without a continuity, nice concepts with zero ties with the older tribes[/quote]

You're very conveniently leaving out the, "built on the core themes of the original game." part of that "admission." 7 of the 11 Tribes have the same name,and same Patron. The idea that they're keeping these things the same (despite changing 4 of them in some fashion) and there will be no ties to the older versions of the game in nonsensical. After all, they want to keep the core themes intact.

I see only malice in wanting to find something offensive in something which is clearly not.

Add this to the "low blow" tally.

I just gave my point of view, and you are putting words that I didnt say in mouth like I think that you are hating creativity.

I think I've well established you're not just "giving your point of view" on the preview. I also explained why the way your put your love of creativity into your statement rhetorically creates an inference that those that don't think like you do must also not love creativity like you do.

If you really just phrased yourself poorly, take the opportunity and actually talk about what's creative to you in such an appealing fashion that justified bringing up your love of creativity and artistic freedom even though nobody was actually bashing the preview around those topics. If I'm wrong about why you brought it up, show it already.

I said that I saw negativity and look at the thread , it's just the truth.

There is negativity in the thread, Yes that's true. You're being negative about stuff as well I'd add.

But importantly, there's a big difference between pointing out negativity, and statement such as, "...more like total pessimism and the will to attack the new edition because just yes.."

Its clearly not the historical werewolf the apocalypse and they had the intellectual honesty to say it in the article.

But not the intellectual honesty, creativity, or artistic freedom to call a new Werewolf game that's not really a new edition of the old games something with a new name. Being honest about keeping the name for the hopes of getting people to buy the game for it's links to the old games while admitting they're not going to care about tossing aside parts of the old game isn't really any better than what they did with the Sabbat or H5. We were told they weren't going to be what a lot of older fans wanted.

I don't really see a reason to give Paradox any credit here. They just said what we already knew from their actions and previous statements. It doesn't actually make it good. It's never been a secret that WoD5 was supposed to be a reinvention of the WoD, but was keeping it the WoD for branding purposes. Martin said that before the first V5 alpha playtest dropped, and nothing has changed since.

[MrNatas]

I think that being skeptical of Parawolf's design choices and information they present to us is healthy. Especially so when these choices are not in a bubble and should of been weighed against any other option they had on the table when they are making choices for tribes.

Because here is the thing, they could of easily not had the GaleStalkers have this ban and instead have any other. If they want to have them be rugged survivalist why not have their ban be something like "you have to live in the wilderness for a month out of the year" or "survive in nature for one day out of the week." But it's ban is purposeful chosen to be "must partake of fresh kill daily."

And while they are saying that "W5 isn’t a continuation of those earlier editions, it’s a re-imagining of Werewolf built on the core themes of the original game" I think it's important to point to the built on the core themes of the original game, so while it's not a continuation of the plot, it is a continuation of the themes of 1e since that is the base of the product. This is all to say that until they show me something that puts my worries to rest I will continue being cynical and I don't feel like it's a bad thing to make a company to a higher standard then 'good enough' with issues they had in the past. So when "must partake of fresh kill daily" is chosen as the ban and W5 is "built on the core themes of the original game" and has implications.

Changing the name of the tribe and the totem they have isn't enough to alleviate the worry I have to what themes from the original they want to "re-imagine" in this tribe, especially when their ban is the way it is.

[Newb95]

Well, despite the fact that this looks like every bit the trainwreck we thought it would be, they were still honest enough to say what will change in advance, vampire players weren't given the same courtesy.

[CTPhipps]

No, the "low blows," are when you start making implications about people that didn't like what you liked.

If you have a problem, contact the Mods.

[CTPhipps]

This thread is getting a lot of downplaying of racism and personal attacks. Any more incidents and it will be shut down.

[Asmodai]

Well, despite the fact that this looks like every bit the trainwreck we thought it would be, they were still honest enough to say what will change in advance, vampire players weren't given the same courtesy.

They may be learning. It's clear that they see the fallout and want to preempt that. However, I got no idea if they actually are interested in actually addressing the complaints or just making sure things aren't controversial or causing scandals for Paradox. Guess we'll know once this thing is out.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

Dismissing both context and criticism as simply pessimism or just not liking something regardless of the substance of either the criticism or the thing being critiqued is not only a disservice to the people taking time out of their lives to examine something. But it is also a disservice to the material being examined. Robbing it of its own capacity to stand up to the scrutiny of it's successes and failures.

This material is no different in that regard than the material that came before, especially when both are shaped by perceptions of what was considered mistakes of the past, missteps of whatever we wish to call them. .
Remembering the forums heydays of 2e and Revised, they were certainly not free of examination. Maybe allow 5e to have it's day in the sun first before trying to sweep away all critiques..

[Mizu]

I hate to use V5 as an example, but most V5 clans do have their core concepts intact.

Besides, if you are going to redo the Red Talons to make them Fenrir, why not just remake Fenrir?

They have had problems with people saying their works for 5th edition are Nazi friendly, and I am guessing that means they were worried about the possibility of people asking 'why are the Nazi werewolves still in you Nazi lovers!?' if they attempted to rehabilitate them in the setting reset. Its possible they have even decided to make them a fallen tribe specifically as evidence they can point to to say 'see, we made the Nazi werewolves the bad guys so how can we be pro-Nazi?' if people try to call them such again in the future.