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Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

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  • It's Grandfather Thunder face. He lies on his side cause he is probably sad due to tribe changes. Where the moons are he have sad eyes, nose is in the center and and the bottom is sad mouth. I see it like that,

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    • Originally posted by Knightingale View Post
      As a way to bring it back to street-level (as W5 probably will try to do), I think it could be an interesting scenario when the premise is "The Garou-Nation realizes it's not doing so well in the whole 'Prevent-the-Apocalypse'-campaign and how do they respond? The Garou split into factions and start arguing with each other."
      Has white wolf ever articulated why they're obsessed with the STREET? After 30 years I've not only never heard them articulate why its so important but I've also never really seen them coherently articulate the idea or even construct an well rounded experiance of urban life.

      As someone whose lived 20 years in a high density urban enviroment and done a community based job for 10 its borderline bizzare on occasion. Especially when they flirt with romanticised poverty.

      Do any of the authors actually have much practical experiance of the STREET?
      Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-07-2022, 02:39 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post

        Has white wolf ever articulated why they're obsessed with the STREET? After 30 years I've not only never heard them articulate why its so important but I've also never really seen them coherently articulate the idea or even construct an well rounded experiance of urban life.

        As someone whose lived 20 years in a high density urban enviroment and done a community based job for 10 its borderline bizzare on occasion. Especially when they flirt with romanticised poverty.

        Do any of the authors actually have much practical experiance of the STREET?
        The reason is not really that things are literally on the street, but 'street' is to reference storylines that are very close to real life situations with supernatural layered on top.

        Basically, umbral fantasy or scifi adventures are seen as too far from the gothic punk concept where urban decay and misery are the backdrops.


        My gallery.

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        • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

          The reason is not really that things are literally on the street, but 'street' is to reference storylines that are very close to real life situations with supernatural layered on top.

          Basically, umbral fantasy or scifi adventures are seen as too far from the gothic punk concept where urban decay and misery are the backdrops.
          If true the fact that v5 and h5 ie nothing at all like real life in any context hasn't seemed to have given them pause for thought.

          (As I sit at my desk worrying if the intern got lost trying to get us both coffee.)
          Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-07-2022, 03:10 AM.

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          • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post

            If true the fact that v5 and h5 ie nothing at all like real life in any context hasn't seemed to have given them pause for thought.

            (As I sit at my desk worrying if the intern got lost trying to get us both coffee.)
            I mean, yeah, it is nothing like real life. But generally the belief is that you have to stick to IRL locales and not have too much power/abilities.


            My gallery.

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            • I would probably explain it that "street" in this context is a matter of scope more than anything else. It means, "street level play." That is, you PCs are concerned with what's happening on the local streets around them, rather than playing the power games of cities or higher level scopes to view the conflicts from.

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              • Frankly, the "street level" of White Wolf always looked like a very romanticised and bourgeois bohemian view of what the real deal looked like, much like how some college kids imagined their weed dealer lived in the bad part of town, V5 hasn't changed it at all and if anything doubled down on this very dark but cool (In their view at least) version of what in reality is really the dregs of society trying to survive, never been a fan of it to be honest.

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                • I've always felt that 'street level' was always code for 'non-impactful play' The reason why you need to be at street level is so that you don't "mess-up" any of the world building or metaplot of the setting. Which is the bad metaplot that people complain about.

                  I will fully admit that is my cynicism. However, I feel justified in my interpretation because it's a lot easier to write fiction when the majority of actors have no impact on the narrative. That said, I think the metaplot/high narrative is important to know for ST that want to have context for their games and capping upward mobility for players regardless of the narrative makes play unsatisfying.

                  TTRPGs have this awkward relationship with the cannon at the table and cannon presented in the books. It's really easy to have a split where they don't line up. I think this is fine as long as the ST knows the setting, the characters, and the motivations of actors but, WoD seems to think it's this break that causes people to hate the metaplot. In my eyes the 'street-level' is WoD handholding to protect you from whatever change they make that would break your narrative. Which is very funny to me because Pathfinder also has a continuative narrative through their Adventure Paths but, no one seems to mind or has their problem. But I think that is the expectations of the media. DND-likes have this relationship where actions won't carry even if the module says they are after certain events, but WoD seems to do the opposite, at least in my experience, that the continuative narrative has impact both as the players do things to the world at large and the world at large making changes to the player.

                  This long-winded rant just to say, making the game explicitly street-level makes it so that players actions don't carry-up so that the narrative doesn't ever break.

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                  • See my impression had been that the reason for bringing everything down to street level was because PDX believes that past editions increasing the stakes and scale beyond what was done in 1e was a Problem and contributed to the setting, at least how they feel, becoming more bonkers and over the top to the point of diluting any notion of personal horror.

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                    • I feel all the above takes are right; The focus should be on personal horror, not too high level and something that is easy to slot into the current metaplot to count as street level.

                      Of course, this makes me ponder how you could do a long-term campaign without losing Personal Horror, keeping things local and not having a larger impact on the setting.


                      My gallery.

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                      • I think the Street level play largely stems from the duality of vampire. Vampire was built from the ground up as a satire where you the player do horrible things for wealth/power/influence. "winning" means either becoming a despicable politician or by regaining your humanity and stepping away from power (IE you don't play anymore). As a satire, it exposed the folly and vices of rulling elites. Unfortunately, to really get the ball rolling, the player needs the maturity to embrace a villainous streak, and not everybody has that or really understands that. Thus street level play is encouraged because it allows for some of the problems of the rulling elites to be somewhat apparent while pulling players away from being villainous politicians who are rewarded for their wrongdoings. It's a twisted way of moralizing the game. A compromise that makes the game more accessible to those who are morally defective and who don't want to challenge themselves.

                        As for werewolves, gutting a giant worm while hanging from it's underside as you fill the planes of the apocalypse with gore, or going on a drug filled vision quest you got from a squirrel, or nurturing the monstrous child you obtained from forbidden love... It's not something common people will immediately relate to and may even drive them away. But deffending impressionable youths from drug pushers is something we've seen hundreds of times before on TV so it's fine.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                        • There's nothing inherently wrong with street-level and personal horror, I think. Narrative scope, themes, mood, power-levels... All sorts of dials can be used to get to a game that is "street-level". The question is, though, how does the game do that? Like in regards to power-levels: What role do Rank-5-Gifts play in a street-level-setting? Is it a reward for an experienced player-character to do something epic or is it supposed to be a good but not groundbreaking power that just makes you the strongest in a certain aspect among the cast of characters in the street-level-setting?

                          And here, it will be important what Justin Achilli wants W5 to be. It's called a "re-imagination" but it isn't the sort of new take you'd associate with most of the CofD-games. The references to old WtA are still blatantly there. How many times will the game try to reference old WtA while pretending to do its own thing...? Personally, I'm much more a fan of a clean break like WtF than what W5 is trying to do. How much of the old is kept around? Do the new ideas fit with the old stuff that remains?

                          I just hope the street-level-expectation will be better integrated into W5 than it was in the case of H5.

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                          • Originally posted by Knightingale View Post
                            There's nothing inherently wrong with street-level and personal horror, I think. Narrative scope, themes, mood, power-levels... All sorts of dials can be used to get to a game that is "street-level". The question is, though, how does the game do that? Like in regards to power-levels: What role do Rank-5-Gifts play in a street-level-setting? Is it a reward for an experienced player-character to do something epic or is it supposed to be a good but not groundbreaking power that just makes you the strongest in a certain aspect among the cast of characters in the street-level-setting?

                            And here, it will be important what Justin Achilli wants W5 to be. It's called a "re-imagination" but it isn't the sort of new take you'd associate with most of the CofD-games. The references to old WtA are still blatantly there. How many times will the game try to reference old WtA while pretending to do its own thing...? Personally, I'm much more a fan of a clean break like WtF than what W5 is trying to do. How much of the old is kept around? Do the new ideas fit with the old stuff that remains?

                            I just hope the street-level-expectation will be better integrated into W5 than it was in the case of H5.

                            Given the treatment that disciplines got in V5, I seriously doubt rank 5 gifts will be an issue, the nerf hammer will hit the garous hard and this was known from the start...

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                            • Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


                              Given the treatment that disciplines got in V5, I seriously doubt rank 5 gifts will be an issue, the nerf hammer will hit the garous hard and this was known from the start...
                              I really hope they're not gonna go the same route they went with Disciplines in V5... Restricting yourself by wanting to pay homage to previous editions while also trying to do something different... That can only end in inconsistent writing. Also, since it's already established that it's a "re-imagining" where's the fun in having to revisit old Gifts if they're considered not a good fit for the new paradigm of W5? It would be far much better to come up with new stuff that would be fun/useful in a typical W5 session rather than a weird photocopy from the old WtA that has to be reworked in order to fit W5.

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