Originally posted by Knightingale
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Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.
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Originally posted by Mizu View Post
I'm just waiting for the reveal that if you get too awesome the ST is required to turn the tables characters into NPCs and make them start over with brand new zero XP characters to keep the game at street level while the new NPCs go off to do elder stuff off screen.
Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment. CofD not getting books so we can get fed WoD5e is an insult.
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So, a genuine question;
Why are we copying Forsaken again? Because I am certain the way you rise in 'rank' is gaining more renown dots. Like in Forsaken. The only different thing in this system is that now gaining 'too much power' is bad.
I said it before in this thread, but it goes repeating; There are other ways than doing what Forsaken did to update WtA. Even if it is a reimagining, this is still veering far too close to just a low-level Forsaken game by mechanics.
You already have Forsaken to use, Justin. Why are you making WtA into it?
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Originally posted by Knightingale View PostRight, but there's a conflict to explore. One of the main-issues of H5 is that there's no conflict to explore.
That problem actually started to creep in with v5 were the decimation of kindred population levels, the beckonimg, the Sabbat exodus (which they soft retconned anyway) and the carmarillas withdrawal from sovereignty means their shouldn't really be much opportunity to butt heads with other vampires much less incentive.
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Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View PostSo, a genuine question;
Why are we copying Forsaken again? Because I am certain the way you rise in 'rank' is gaining more renown dots. Like in Forsaken. The only different thing in this system is that now gaining 'too much power' is bad.
I said it before in this thread, but it goes repeating; There are other ways than doing what Forsaken did to update WtA. Even if it is a reimagining, this is still veering far too close to just a low-level Forsaken game by mechanics.
You already have Forsaken to use, Justin. Why are you making WtA into it?
Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade
Senator of the Greater Chamber
Champion of the Silver Pact
Chosen of the Little Gods
Agent of Fate
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Originally posted by Knightingale View PostBut as far as lower stakes and street-level are concerned... Any concept, if done well, can produce a great game, I believe. At this stage, the question is, though: Does the preview-material inspire confidence in that happening? That's what we're talking about here.
But, is it what we want? I would generally prefer a Setting and matching rules that allow for continuous chronicles that potentially lasts forever. A WtA core book and source material that forces a play style and choice of story theme towards "solving the game's theme" as in "Ending the Apocalypse" or "Saving Gaia" would be a bad thing, for once it is done there is no worthwhile continuation of the the story.
Sure, such a concept for a game or the ending of a chronicle can be great games. And I love to play such stories for one-shots or when the premise is set on a limited chronicle like that. But I wouldn't want to miss the chronicles that could go on endlessly.
If a game is designed to be used in a play-style that favours a specific theme and story-type it is, in my opinion, harder to adjust to suit the needs of an endless chronicle than the other way round.
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Originally posted by Mizu View Post
His actual reasoning for it remains a mystery to us. My personal theory? They saw no need to reinvent the wheel when another product already does a lot of what they want and its legally not plagiarism if you own the product your new product is ripping off.
For one, since the focus was on scrappy outcasts, the fangs were made into antagonists along with Red Talons.
Currently we have Bone Gnawers as a tribe of Honour, Gale Stalker ban being suspect and a lot of the systems seemingly being straight taken from Forsaken with no editing. Which to me looks like there is still a lot of refining to do to make W5 stand on its own.
Like, you can take stuff from Forsaken, but not to the detriment of both games.
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Originally posted by Heavy Arms View PostSo.... apparently Rank is also gone in W5, with just Renown operating as a tracker of social position....
It seems to me that Justin might really want to get around to posting a lot more stuff that highlights how W5 is going to be true to the WtA "core themes" so people that want WtA can understand how W5 is still going to deliver WtA, instead of just constantly dripping out stuff that Forsaken did that's going to be how W5 does things.
What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.
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Originally posted by heinrich View PostYou are right, any concept can produce a great game.
But, is it what we want? I would generally prefer a Setting and matching rules that allow for continuous chronicles that potentially lasts forever. A WtA core book and source material that forces a play style and choice of story theme towards "solving the game's theme" as in "Ending the Apocalypse" or "Saving Gaia" would be a bad thing, for once it is done there is no worthwhile continuation of the the story.
Sure, such a concept for a game or the ending of a chronicle can be great games. And I love to play such stories for one-shots or when the premise is set on a limited chronicle like that. But I wouldn't want to miss the chronicles that could go on endlessly.
If a game is designed to be used in a play-style that favours a specific theme and story-type it is, in my opinion, harder to adjust to suit the needs of an endless chronicle than the other way round.
So there's this gulf between what Justin Achilli thought he's doing with Sober Play and the reality of the situation in the book. And who knows how something like this might show up in how W5 is designed...
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Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
I am finding it deeply ironic that the further we go the more the title of this thread makes sense.
H5 might not be anything like HtR, but it's also not HtV or HH either... it's its own weird new thing.
Now, we could still be very wrong because we've seen very little preview-wise, but it really does feel like Justin wanted to make Forsaken over Apocalypse, but was stuck with the Apocalypse brand and it's not nearly as easy to stealth-ditch like what happened to Reckoning.
To a certain extent I can empathize a bit with Justin here. He was one of the devs that was a big part of the transition from the oWoD to the nWoD/CofD. He was involved in setting the groundwork for Forsaken 1e, and was one of the many oWW folks saying how these new games were what they'd want to do if they could start over without all the baggage of 12 years of books beholden to stuff from the early 90s. If Forsaken is the reimagining that Justin was involved in the first time, it makes sense that he'd want to repeat a lot of the same decisions on his second go of it.
But that's also the problem. This is is second go at reimagining Werewolf, and he's working for a company that's still supporting his previous reimagining. It really feels like any WoD5 game should either be like V5, where it's trying to at least be a continuation while also a major shakeup, or like H5 where they just toss nearly everything and don't try to be like the oWoD books or the CofD ones. I have no idea who "Forsaken with an Apocalypse coat of paint and a V5 engine under the hood," is supposed to appeal to.
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Originally posted by Heavy Arms View PostWhat's even more amusing to me, is that all the talk about "Requiemization" with V5 was nowhere close to this. V5 borrowed some stuff from CofD and a bunch of other games, but however you feel about the final product, it feels like it was made by people that wanted to make a VtM game.
H5 might not be anything like HtR, but it's also not HtV or HH either... it's its own weird new thing.
Now, we could still be very wrong because we've seen very little preview-wise, but it really does feel like Justin wanted to make Forsaken over Apocalypse, but was stuck with the Apocalypse brand and it's not nearly as easy to stealth-ditch like what happened to Reckoning.
It makes me wonder how W5 is gonna do this. Now WtA offers a much more obvious path in mirroring the V5-template but considering what happened with H5... who knows what W5 might look like.
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Originally posted by Heavy Arms View PostBut that's also the problem. This is is second go at reimagining Werewolf, and he's working for a company that's still supporting his previous reimagining. It really feels like any WoD5 game should either be like V5, where it's trying to at least be a continuation while also a major shakeup, or like H5 where they just toss nearly everything and don't try to be like the oWoD books or the CofD ones. I have no idea who "Forsaken with an Apocalypse coat of paint and a V5 engine under the hood," is supposed to appeal to.
EDIT: Also, the limiter on how high you can climb feels odd because it means for once the PCs -aren't- the special characters rising high. The NPCs are. Which I think is even more blueballing than 'you cannot play this tribe/bloodline/tradion/etc.'Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 10-12-2022, 07:55 AM.
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Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View PostAlso, the limiter on how high you can climb feels odd because it means for once the PCs -aren't- the special characters rising high. The NPCs are. Which I think is even more blueballing than 'you cannot play this tribe/bloodline/tradion/etc.'
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Originally posted by Knightingale View PostThat gave me an idea... What if under Justin Achilli's conception since the Get would be the fourth Glory-Tribe, the reason for why the Get fell is that they care too much about Renown? Like there's mechanics to put characters with too much Renown into danger and there's a whole self vs. community theme-thing going on where it's supposed to be a bad thing to want to have high Renown.
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Honestly, I'm just wanting to know some more about the potential supernatural enemies that we're supposedly going to be fighting. At this point, the only real antagonists that are confirmed are either the Gets, or classic "nature vs. civilization" stuff like climate change, corporations, etc. I haven't seen a single whisper of anything supernatural being an enemy at this point - there was talk about the Umbra being "more hostile" to the Garou a while back, but I haven't seen anything specific about it yet.
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