Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

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  • Mizu
    Member
    • Nov 2013
    • 1520

    Originally posted by Knightingale View Post
    Right, but there's a conflict to explore. One of the main-issues of H5 is that there's no conflict to explore. It's very explicit about how hunter-organizations and everybody who works for them are compromised. And if that isn't the case for somebody who works for them... then the first priority automatically becomes to stop working for them and join a street-level hunter-cell. There's no conflict here. It's pretty black-and-white. And it's never explained well why the book takes this hard stance against hunter-organizations where just being a member of them is somehow a sin already.

    And considering how many answers from Justin about W5 are just about him abandoning yet another element of old WtA, in light of how H5 approached hunter-organizations... what does Justin Achilli think is the big sin of Garou-society...?
    I'm just waiting for the reveal that if you get too awesome the ST is required to turn the tables characters into NPCs and make them start over with brand new zero XP characters to keep the game at street level while the new NPCs go off to do elder stuff off screen.


    Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade
    Senator of the Greater Chamber
    Champion of the Silver Pact
    Chosen of the Little Gods
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    • TyrannicalRabbit
      Member
      • May 2014
      • 1393

      Originally posted by Mizu View Post

      I'm just waiting for the reveal that if you get too awesome the ST is required to turn the tables characters into NPCs and make them start over with brand new zero XP characters to keep the game at street level while the new NPCs go off to do elder stuff off screen.
      That's just silly. They get turned into "Storyteller Player Characters" duh! /s


      Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment. CofD not getting books so we can get fed WoD5e is an insult.

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      • Ana Mizuki
        Member
        • Nov 2013
        • 2307

        So, a genuine question;

        Why are we copying Forsaken again? Because I am certain the way you rise in 'rank' is gaining more renown dots. Like in Forsaken. The only different thing in this system is that now gaining 'too much power' is bad.

        I said it before in this thread, but it goes repeating; There are other ways than doing what Forsaken did to update WtA. Even if it is a reimagining, this is still veering far too close to just a low-level Forsaken game by mechanics.

        You already have Forsaken to use, Justin. Why are you making WtA into it?


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        • Ragged Robin
          Member
          • Jul 2021
          • 1429

          Originally posted by Knightingale View Post
          Right, but there's a conflict to explore. One of the main-issues of H5 is that there's no conflict to explore.

          That problem actually started to creep in with v5 were the decimation of kindred population levels, the beckonimg, the Sabbat exodus (which they soft retconned anyway) and the carmarillas withdrawal from sovereignty means their shouldn't really be much opportunity to butt heads with other vampires much less incentive.

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          • Mizu
            Member
            • Nov 2013
            • 1520

            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
            So, a genuine question;

            Why are we copying Forsaken again? Because I am certain the way you rise in 'rank' is gaining more renown dots. Like in Forsaken. The only different thing in this system is that now gaining 'too much power' is bad.

            I said it before in this thread, but it goes repeating; There are other ways than doing what Forsaken did to update WtA. Even if it is a reimagining, this is still veering far too close to just a low-level Forsaken game by mechanics.

            You already have Forsaken to use, Justin. Why are you making WtA into it?
            His actual reasoning for it remains a mystery to us. My personal theory? They saw no need to reinvent the wheel when another product already does a lot of what they want and its legally not plagiarism if you own the product your new product is ripping off.


            Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade
            Senator of the Greater Chamber
            Champion of the Silver Pact
            Chosen of the Little Gods
            Agent of Fate

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            • heinrich
              Member
              • Nov 2013
              • 1800

              Originally posted by Knightingale View Post
              But as far as lower stakes and street-level are concerned... Any concept, if done well, can produce a great game, I believe. At this stage, the question is, though: Does the preview-material inspire confidence in that happening? That's what we're talking about here.
              You are right, any concept can produce a great game.

              But, is it what we want? I would generally prefer a Setting and matching rules that allow for continuous chronicles that potentially lasts forever. A WtA core book and source material that forces a play style and choice of story theme towards "solving the game's theme" as in "Ending the Apocalypse" or "Saving Gaia" would be a bad thing, for once it is done there is no worthwhile continuation of the the story.
              Sure, such a concept for a game or the ending of a chronicle can be great games. And I love to play such stories for one-shots or when the premise is set on a limited chronicle like that. But I wouldn't want to miss the chronicles that could go on endlessly.

              If a game is designed to be used in a play-style that favours a specific theme and story-type it is, in my opinion, harder to adjust to suit the needs of an endless chronicle than the other way round.

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              • Ana Mizuki
                Member
                • Nov 2013
                • 2307

                Originally posted by Mizu View Post

                His actual reasoning for it remains a mystery to us. My personal theory? They saw no need to reinvent the wheel when another product already does a lot of what they want and its legally not plagiarism if you own the product your new product is ripping off.
                What gets me is the sheer jank of it all currently. Forsaken took a lot from WtA, but it still made these things fit a theme.

                For one, since the focus was on scrappy outcasts, the fangs were made into antagonists along with Red Talons.

                Currently we have Bone Gnawers as a tribe of Honour, Gale Stalker ban being suspect and a lot of the systems seemingly being straight taken from Forsaken with no editing. Which to me looks like there is still a lot of refining to do to make W5 stand on its own.

                Like, you can take stuff from Forsaken, but not to the detriment of both games.


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                • Asmodai
                  Member
                  • Nov 2013
                  • 2952

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  So.... apparently Rank is also gone in W5, with just Renown operating as a tracker of social position....

                  It seems to me that Justin might really want to get around to posting a lot more stuff that highlights how W5 is going to be true to the WtA "core themes" so people that want WtA can understand how W5 is still going to deliver WtA, instead of just constantly dripping out stuff that Forsaken did that's going to be how W5 does things.
                  I am finding it deeply ironic that the further we go the more the title of this thread makes sense.


                  What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                  • Knightingale
                    Member
                    • Aug 2022
                    • 1122

                    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                    You are right, any concept can produce a great game.

                    But, is it what we want? I would generally prefer a Setting and matching rules that allow for continuous chronicles that potentially lasts forever. A WtA core book and source material that forces a play style and choice of story theme towards "solving the game's theme" as in "Ending the Apocalypse" or "Saving Gaia" would be a bad thing, for once it is done there is no worthwhile continuation of the the story.
                    Sure, such a concept for a game or the ending of a chronicle can be great games. And I love to play such stories for one-shots or when the premise is set on a limited chronicle like that. But I wouldn't want to miss the chronicles that could go on endlessly.

                    If a game is designed to be used in a play-style that favours a specific theme and story-type it is, in my opinion, harder to adjust to suit the needs of an endless chronicle than the other way round.
                    If the approach with H5 is repeated then the bigger issue isn't even a restriction in what play-style and story-type is expected but that the design-goals don't match the end-product. Sober Play was this concept that as Justin Achilli is about differentiating mortal Hunters from the other splats in the WOD. Where other splats are restricted by things like Hunger and Rage and falling Humanity would limit a vampire's behavior, there would be no such restrictions for mortals as their conscience is entirely their own. What this idea meant in execution, though, was that H5 completely lacked a morality-system. And there's nothing in the book that helps Storytellers navigate this vacuum created by this choice.

                    So there's this gulf between what Justin Achilli thought he's doing with Sober Play and the reality of the situation in the book. And who knows how something like this might show up in how W5 is designed...

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                    • Heavy Arms
                      Member
                      • Nov 2013
                      • 11511

                      Originally posted by Asmodai View Post

                      I am finding it deeply ironic that the further we go the more the title of this thread makes sense.
                      What's even more amusing to me, is that all the talk about "Requiemization" with V5 was nowhere close to this. V5 borrowed some stuff from CofD and a bunch of other games, but however you feel about the final product, it feels like it was made by people that wanted to make a VtM game.

                      H5 might not be anything like HtR, but it's also not HtV or HH either... it's its own weird new thing.

                      Now, we could still be very wrong because we've seen very little preview-wise, but it really does feel like Justin wanted to make Forsaken over Apocalypse, but was stuck with the Apocalypse brand and it's not nearly as easy to stealth-ditch like what happened to Reckoning.

                      To a certain extent I can empathize a bit with Justin here. He was one of the devs that was a big part of the transition from the oWoD to the nWoD/CofD. He was involved in setting the groundwork for Forsaken 1e, and was one of the many oWW folks saying how these new games were what they'd want to do if they could start over without all the baggage of 12 years of books beholden to stuff from the early 90s. If Forsaken is the reimagining that Justin was involved in the first time, it makes sense that he'd want to repeat a lot of the same decisions on his second go of it.

                      But that's also the problem. This is is second go at reimagining Werewolf, and he's working for a company that's still supporting his previous reimagining. It really feels like any WoD5 game should either be like V5, where it's trying to at least be a continuation while also a major shakeup, or like H5 where they just toss nearly everything and don't try to be like the oWoD books or the CofD ones. I have no idea who "Forsaken with an Apocalypse coat of paint and a V5 engine under the hood," is supposed to appeal to.

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                      • Knightingale
                        Member
                        • Aug 2022
                        • 1122

                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        What's even more amusing to me, is that all the talk about "Requiemization" with V5 was nowhere close to this. V5 borrowed some stuff from CofD and a bunch of other games, but however you feel about the final product, it feels like it was made by people that wanted to make a VtM game.

                        H5 might not be anything like HtR, but it's also not HtV or HH either... it's its own weird new thing.

                        Now, we could still be very wrong because we've seen very little preview-wise, but it really does feel like Justin wanted to make Forsaken over Apocalypse, but was stuck with the Apocalypse brand and it's not nearly as easy to stealth-ditch like what happened to Reckoning.
                        H5 seems weird because I think with that game there's another thing he wanted to "stealth-ditch" - and that's the Storyteller-system (even in its updated V5-form). Edges are there to replace Backgrounds/Merits/Flaws and how powers work. Cornerstones like a Humanity-like trait are erased, splats only play a very minor role in how you play a character etc. Now I don't think he was very successful in doing that (and stuff like Backgrounds, for example, are still in the game in opposition to what Edges do strangely) but I could imagine that if it were truly up to him H5 would've also ditched the whole Storyteller-system and it would look very different compared to how it was released.

                        It makes me wonder how W5 is gonna do this. Now WtA offers a much more obvious path in mirroring the V5-template but considering what happened with H5... who knows what W5 might look like.

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                        • Ana Mizuki
                          Member
                          • Nov 2013
                          • 2307

                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          But that's also the problem. This is is second go at reimagining Werewolf, and he's working for a company that's still supporting his previous reimagining. It really feels like any WoD5 game should either be like V5, where it's trying to at least be a continuation while also a major shakeup, or like H5 where they just toss nearly everything and don't try to be like the oWoD books or the CofD ones. I have no idea who "Forsaken with an Apocalypse coat of paint and a V5 engine under the hood," is supposed to appeal to.
                          I get the feeling new book pitches for it aren't being accepted at all. Hence why WoD5 seems to cannibalize NWoD/CotD, they are using the framework they want but trying to fit it into the old model by force.

                          EDIT: Also, the limiter on how high you can climb feels odd because it means for once the PCs -aren't- the special characters rising high. The NPCs are. Which I think is even more blueballing than 'you cannot play this tribe/bloodline/tradion/etc.'
                          Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 10-12-2022, 07:55 AM.


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                          • Knightingale
                            Member
                            • Aug 2022
                            • 1122

                            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                            Also, the limiter on how high you can climb feels odd because it means for once the PCs -aren't- the special characters rising high. The NPCs are. Which I think is even more blueballing than 'you cannot play this tribe/bloodline/tradion/etc.'
                            That gave me an idea... What if under Justin Achilli's conception since the Get would be the fourth Glory-Tribe, the reason for why the Get fell is that they care too much about Renown? Like there's mechanics to put characters with too much Renown into danger and there's a whole self vs. community theme-thing going on where it's supposed to be a bad thing to want to have high Renown.

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                            • Ana Mizuki
                              Member
                              • Nov 2013
                              • 2307

                              Originally posted by Knightingale View Post
                              That gave me an idea... What if under Justin Achilli's conception since the Get would be the fourth Glory-Tribe, the reason for why the Get fell is that they care too much about Renown? Like there's mechanics to put characters with too much Renown into danger and there's a whole self vs. community theme-thing going on where it's supposed to be a bad thing to want to have high Renown.
                              Haglust(??) being from want of renown is logical, though *points at Fangs* what are THEY still doing here? XD


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                              • Just Some Guy
                                Member
                                • Jul 2022
                                • 17

                                Honestly, I'm just wanting to know some more about the potential supernatural enemies that we're supposedly going to be fighting. At this point, the only real antagonists that are confirmed are either the Gets, or classic "nature vs. civilization" stuff like climate change, corporations, etc. I haven't seen a single whisper of anything supernatural being an enemy at this point - there was talk about the Umbra being "more hostile" to the Garou a while back, but I haven't seen anything specific about it yet.

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