Ok....apparently we are going full Forsaken.

[Heavy Arms]

Dear lord it's 2022 and we're back to the "idek just do it!" argument?

Just to be clear, in the pat 30 odd years, there has never been a "just do it" argument for why the metaplot isn't a problem that hasn't come down to sounding like a rich person that doesn't understand how poor people exist when getting to be rich is so easy, you "just do it (when your parents spend huge amounts of money on your upbringing, and just give you huge amounts of money to get your life and business started, obviously everyone has rich parents that's just a given) with some good old fashioned work."

And yes, these sorts of arguments have lead to lots and lots and lots of threads where the "just do it" side of things ends up disparaging everyone else because "they can't see it,"quickly turns into, "I don't have this problem thus it doesn't exist thus it is clearly a flaw in other people." It's practically inevitable because it's inherent to the position in the first place. Either you start to see the problem, or - whether you'll post it or not - you start blaming people that don't like the metaplot for being the "real" problem. There's no middle ground once you start from the "just do it" place.

It occurred to me to explain it this way: metaplot/setting and what we do at our table are two different timelines.

The problem is that this isn't a binary. There's a spectrum of how close or far individual games are from the official material. If you're playing in a group where what you do at your table is close to the books, the impact of the metaplot increases, if you're on the other side of things where your games never really give a shit about the book's presentation of things, it's easier to just ignore stuff (because you're already ignoring lots of stuff).

If you want to claim to be the first, that's great, but I've never a met a person that said they just "ignored" the Avatar Storm and played Revised, that wasn't just playing 2e with some house rules they took from Revised. They like to sound like it's easy, but they're neglecting to acknowledge how it's only easy because they had a pre-Avatar Storm edition to fall back on.

If it's not abundantly clear, I've been trying to explain how the metaplot is a detriment to a lot of people's gaming experience with the WoD for a long time. You're "oh I just thought of explaining it this way!" is something I've dissected and posted a giant screed about dozens of times before 2003 happened already.

The position you're taking is, ultimately, self-centered. It's about assuming what works for you must work for everyone, and thus if it's not a problem for you, it can't be a real problem for anyone.

About The Howling, it's cool that Forsaken could be used that easily for that, apparently (can't say, I never played it) but I went beyond just char-gen. It is also how the tribes and Garou nation work, among other things.

And here's a great example. You "just" changed the Tribes, and how the Garou Nation works. That's so simple... it's just rewriting the whole basic premise of the game. Who doesn't have the free time to do a few hundreds of hours of alterations to the game?

[HeavyWhiskey]

Dear lord it's 2022 and we're back to the "idek just do it!" argument?

??? Don't know what that means but just in case, I always address people with respect. Do the same.

but I've never a met a person that said they just "ignored" the Avatar Storm and played Revised, that wasn't just playing 2e with some house rules they took from Revised. They like to sound like it's easy, but they're neglecting to acknowledge how it's only easy because they had a pre-Avatar Storm edition to fall back on.

You just met one

If it's not abundantly clear, I've been trying to explain how the metaplot is a detriment to a lot of people's gaming experience with the WoD for a long time. You're "oh I just thought of explaining it this way!" is something I've dissected and posted a giant screed about dozens of times before 2003 happened already.

Again, respect. the whole "oh I just thought of explaining it this way!" was just me trying to get my point across. If I failed at it the snark on your part is not necessary. Are you a minor? I like to be aware and careful about who I talk with on the internet.

position you're taking is, ultimately, self-centered. It's about assuming what works for you must work for everyone, and thus if it's not a problem for you, it can't be a real problem for anyone.

I'm not assuming anything I just don't get why people are so beholden to metaplot

And here's a great example. You "just" changed the Tribes, and how the Garou Nation works. That's so simple... it's just rewriting the whole basic premise of the game. Who doesn't have the free time to do a few hundreds of hours of alterations to the game?

I didn't change the premise, just some things about the setting. Yes, it was kinda simple, and it didn't take hundreds of hours.

[Heavy Arms]

Don't know what that means....

It means you're trotting out an old argument that this community has had dozens of times over decades of interactions, and long since moved past.

I always address people with respect.

What, exactly, is respectful about, what you're saying? There's not respect towards everyone that has struggled because of how the metaplot was implemented. You're blundering around with your eyes closed and saying that you can't see the problems being pointed out to you. That's not respect.

If you want respect, don't dismiss everyone that's different from you. Addressing people respectfully involves things like actually taking in what they're saying, thinking about it, and responding to it. Not just faking niceness and then telling everyone that doesn't like something they're wrong because you think it's fine.

Also, what's inanely predictable? The worst arguments to defend the metaplot always come from the people that claim they never use it. Nobody that actually likes using the metaplot tries to defend it by saying how "easy" it is to ignore, because it's a silly argument. If you like something about a game, you shouldn't be talking about how much it's irrelevant to being able to play the game. "I ditch the metaplot as fast and as hard as possible," isn't a defense of it, it's an acknowledgement that the metaplot was badly done because you didn't want to use it. Droning on about how simple you find it to do so is just disrespectful to everyone else.

You just met one

Ah yes the, "it's over the Internet so you have to believe that I didn't do that thing without any evidence or argumentation to explain that," retort. Boring and trite as usual.

What did you replace the Avatar Storm with to justify all the setting changes that it caused? If you say the Avatar Storm just didn't happen, either you went back to the 2e status quo (but you're saying you didn't) or you have to have come up with something to take its place to explain all the setting changes in Revised.... or you did exactly what I said.

Are you a minor?

How would a minor have been arguing about the value of the metaplot on the Internet over twenty years ago?

Or should I just point out that your BS attempt to imply I'm childish was pointless and flies in the face of the "I"m always respctful!" claim?

I'm not assuming anything I just don't get why people are so beholden to metaplot

Why has been explained. Either you're willfully not listening, or you're making massive assumptions in order to dismiss those explanations. Which will it be?

I didn't change the premise, just some things about the setting. Yes, it was kinda simple, and it didn't take hundreds of hours.

More of the same old predictable nonsense. "Oh, I didn't just change this, I also change that,and this other thing, and this other stuff, but it only took me five minutes because I'm just like that."

Do you really not see how utterly disingenuous it is to talk about how you overhauled things like the Tribes and the entire Garou nation, and then just blow it off as if you house ruled something like the silly way the game determines the difficulty to rolls to learn new rites?

Did you time yourself? Did you catalog all the nights in bed thinking about it? Keep a dev diary to see how much time you really put into it? Or are you just saying it didn't take that long because it's simpler to paint it as easy then think back at how much work you did but probably didn't realize how much work it was because it was also fun?

[LunaLupa]

One thing, I am particularly curious about the recent shifts in the game priorities is how this new design philosophy will affect other aspects of the game lore, like the Fera or the Triat.
Especially since I always personally considered the Fera to be an element that needed to be better integrated into the game and the Triat is particularly complex and can be used in many different ways.

[CTPhipps]

The thread has gotten hostile despite repeated warnings. Sorry guys.