W5 auspices and forms

[Heavy Arms]

I say that the difference between the new moon auspices is bigger. Ragabash combine Irraka's stealth with jester's privilege and latter is more prominent than the former in the description on this WOD news page.

Forsaken certainly plays down the prankster/jester parts, but it didn't give those to a different Auspice either. It's more of a change in tone because Forsaken is pack focused instead of Sept focused. IME PC Ragbash don't constantly troll other PCs because it's their duty, but instead it's part of their larger role in Garou Society. Forsaken 2e's approach to this is instead Flaring Renown, and how that works for Cunning (the Irraka's primary Renown).

You're right that there's a difference but it's not practically as big of a difference in the context of the games as much as how much WtA tended to put everything spirit related as Theurge business. Even though nothing says that Ragabash aren't supposed to trick spirits, and Ahrouns aren't supposed to fight them, the Auspice Gift lists in WtA have always defaulted to "spirit = Theurge Gift" over what the Gift actually does. If you want a Ragabash that has any special edges in stealth or trickery against spirits, you better hope your Breed or Tribe list helps. Etc.

I feel like talking about Justin's,or any other writer's, personal life is not a very nice thing to do

I do apologize if it's crossed that line. I have been trying to keep to things Justin has done in his role as a public face of a company, not things he's only related as parts of his private life. It's a tough line to walk though, because he's calling a change he's making to the game a "personal victory," so he's made is personal views on things directly part of the conversation.

And you all seem to fault him a lot for doing things his way. Why wouldn't he do things his way? I mean,if you were the creative lead would you really do what others thought it was best,or would you do what you want to do?

It depends on the job.

If you're the owner of your own RPG company, and you're working on your own personally owned RPG, and you're taking the role of creative lead? Have a blast and do whatever you want.

If you're an employee of a company... you have to keep your bosses happy with what you're doing (Justin does, in fact have a greater-than-zero obligation on this). If your employers don't think what you're doing is best for the product, they can fire you. A creative lead is also a leadership position, which requires constructive work with other members of the W5 team and the ability to take in input from them that sometimes they might come up with something that's better than what you initially thought would be best. Treating your team - who are generally going to be creative people in their own right - like they only exist to put your ideas to the page is not a good thing for a management position.

If you're working on an established IP, especially an RPG where you're stuck with a mechanical framework that you didn't help design, you have all sorts of forces pushing and pulling you in different directions; and many of them will have a valid point. While a creative lead needs to be able to endure this and fight for their vision, they ultimately need to also have a vision that can sell to an audience that has strong preconceptions about the game.

Lots of RPG designers in Justin's position have talked (generally well after a game was published) about the compromises they made over what might have been their personal desires for a game, vs. what they felt was the best thing to do for the game within a larger context (being a later edition of a long running franchise, making sure there's consistency between the mechanical core basis of different games in the same line, etc.). So yeah, if I was in Justin's shoes, I would think it would be extremely important to balance my personal feelings for what's best for the game, what my bosses think, my coworkers think, and what the existing fans think.

I guess what I want to say is that I think you should be open minded,every change has been very viciously torn down

So, speaking of obligations... what obligation do I have to be positive towards all this?

Justin's job is to make me want to buy this game (which I admit, after V5 Sabbat and H5, he has made the bar for me wanting to read a WoD5 book let alone buy one very high). "Justin's vision for WtA," is not something I actually value on its face. I say this as someone that's had extensive public and private conversations about the WoD with him back in the early WW Internet days.

In the early 00s, Justin was super unpopular with the WtA fans (and not just on things like the forums, the big WtA LARP groups regularly derided him for things he said about WtA). While he didn't earn the same animus with the CofD fans, he's associated with the weakest era of the CofD books, because he wanted the CofD to be more of a direct reboot of the WoD. A lot of CofD fans credit Ethan Skemp (yes that public rivalry continued on after the ToJ books) with saving the CofD because he was the one that shepherded in Changeling the Lost 1e and massive sway people towards seeing the CofD as a parallel thing to the WoD instead of a replacement. That was when the CofD, seeing how wildly successful CtL was, shifted gears from "reboot the WoD" to "do something different with the same core premise."

I'm willing to be open minded. But I can also only react to the information I have. I have my experiences as a consumer of Justin's older work, my direct interactions with him, and what he's posted on the WoD blog and his social media.

So far we have seen nothing that's designed to excite people that want to hear more than "WtA but on the V5 rules engine." He's also said a lot of things that feel like red flags to those of us that had negative experiences with his work while having a leadership role in the oWW and CCP days.

If my open mind gets filled with negative impressions... that's what my responses are going to be. If Justin, and this is part of his job, wants to see more positive discussion of the game, he should be releasing more information that's, well, something to get excited about. The previews so far have been very light on context or examples. If Justin posts something with some actual meat to it, and I can say, "I might not buy W5, but that looks like it'll be good for people that do," I'll say it. If he's going to post about how happy he is to get a fart joke out of the game... well I've said how I feel about that.

[TwoDSix]

And you all seem to fault him a lot for doing things his way. Why wouldn't he do things his way? I mean,if you were the creative lead would you really do what others thought it was best,or would you do what you want to do?

For me it's entirely because he seems to be removing the parts that make WoD stand out compared to CofD. I first came into WoD at around the beginning of CofD 2e, so this isn't just nostalgia from games I played in the 90s, there are genuinely good things about WoD that aren't in CofD. Apocalypse is also my favourite of the WoD games, and Forsaken probably my least favourite CofD game.

I see him turning WoD into CofD, and I want to know why he doesn't just focus his efforts on CofD.

Now in the broad strokes I actually like V5, even if not in the details. But H5 was mostly 'lame Vigil' and W5 is shaping up to be 'lame Forsaken'. Which is a shame, I'd like to be able to get more Apocalypse, but these changes are significantly more fundamental V5's.

At least PWW can't stop me from playing W20. And if I ever want to play Forsaken, well I guess I could always play Forsaken.

It also doesn't help that PWW released V5 and then seemed to flounder for a few years. WoD5 feels like it was rushed into without a plan in place, and then every time a plan is settled on it's thrown out within a year. It's possible that these changes are more thought out than I think, but I don't have a lot of confidence.

[Nicolas Milioni]

Guess I spoke about things without understanding the history behind them,sorry.

[ArcaneArts]

Ok sorry I got carried away and was rude,I'm sorry for that.
I guess what I want to say is that I think you should be open minded,every change has been very viciously torn down

If you wish to inspire open-mindedness in response to a negative take, mayhaps you'd be well served with explaining your positive take on this information, and the reasoning for said bright outlook.

[Nicolas Milioni]

If you wish to inspire open-mindedness in response to a negative take, mayhaps you'd be well served with explaining your positive take on this information, and the reasoning for said bright outlook.

Yeah. You're right
só my opinion for liking the changes is that the things I like are still here,the five forms, the spirits,the Umbra,gifts, those things are the core of the game for me and im happy paradox agrees with me on that. And thhere's so many needeed changes being made,I love the modenization that if feels like a game made in 2022,not a game made in 1993 I absolutely adora that anyone can be of any tribe,that there's no limitations on that,I never liked that so many clans and tribes had only recruited people from certain places and ethnic backgrounds back then. Ilove that breeding is not a thing anymore,it was something that turned me off the game before to be honest,all that word count on how few new wolves are being born on how garou should mate and had a obligation to make sure their species continues,it allseemed so boring and downright useless for the game at times
II love the art previews ,the art shown so far speaks to my aesthetic sense.
The nixing of Garou born is great,he garou born were hqed for being born for existing. I cannot stomach anyone hating anyone for being born and existing

[MyWifeIsScary]

I've long and strongly suspected I'll be looking at W5 from a perspective of "what can I salvage to use in a better edition" rather than "should I actually play this". If I look at it at-all.

IDK. Even the long-awaited political correction of tribe names is a stinker.
Gale Stalkers is a pretty lame name and the council one is rediculous. If we're going to limit ourselves to two words in the english language (not a terrible scheme) there are doubtlessy many better combinations.
For the Wendigo: Winter's Teeth , frozen* pelts, *snow hides, cold kings... (*insert anything related to freezing: Ice,frost... whatever.)
For Uktena: literally anything is better than calling a tribe of werewolves a council.

[TwoDSix]

Yeah. You're right
só my opinion for liking the changes is that the things I like are still here,the five forms, the spirits,the Umbra,gifts, those things are the core of the game for me and im happy paradox agrees with me on that. And thhere's so many needeed changes being made,I love the modenization that if feels like a game made in 2022,not a game made in 1993 I absolutely adora that anyone can be of any tribe,that there's no limitations on that,I never liked that so many clans and tribes had only recruited people from certain places and ethnic backgrounds back then. Ilove that breeding is not a thing anymore,it was something that turned me off the game before to be honest,all that word count on how few new wolves are being born on how garou should mate and had a obligation to make sure their species continues,it allseemed so boring and downright useless for the game at times
II love the art previews ,the art shown so far speaks to my aesthetic sense.
The nixing of Garou born is great,he garou born were hqed for being born for existing. I cannot stomach anyone hating anyone for being born and existing

Okay, I'm going to try to explain why I dislike most of these changes.

For me WoD is the left looking at and trying to understand the right. This is probably purest in HtR, and each gameline includes rage against the establishment to a greater or lesser extent, but the fact that Garou society is traditionalist to the extreme is to me the entire point.

Technically there was nothing stopping Garou from joining a different Tribe, but not every Tribe was willing to accept converts and it's not How Things Are Done. Metis are looked down on for two reasons: Garou society prides heritage and legacy, and Metis are illegitimate. There are places in the modern world where bastards are looked down upon compared to legitimate children, and Metis are that taken to an extreme.

I'm not particularly fond of Metis also being universally... disabled isn't the right word, but it does boil down to that in a lot of cases. But I can deal with it as an aspect of the game.

Tribes needed a rework and the additional of more sub-tribes from alternate cultures, but I don't think abandoning the cultural elements outright was the right call. Especially when not having an origin culture or being willing to adapt to new cultures are big parts of some tribes.

Finally, the Garou aren't supposed to be in the right. They messed everything up thousands of years ago, and they're still messing up now. They're not as integrated into human society as they should be (except for the Glass Walkers, who are too human), they're letting tradition blind themselves to where the war's actually being fought, and the less said about their treatment of kinfolk the better. They're also stubbornly refusing to admit they fucked up, and it's possible that nothing less than wresting control from the elders will change that.


About the things you consider core to WtA, there's good news! Forsaken has all of them, alongside most of the changes you like. Plus it's really good, it being my least favourite CofD game is mostly because of how great the other lines are.

[Heavy Arms]

só my opinion for liking the changes is that the things I like are still here,the five forms, the spirits,the Umbra,gifts, those things are the core of the game for me and im happy paradox agrees with me on that.

So here's one of the thing I mean about "meat on the bones." None of this was ever really in question of changing (maybe the five forms because of the video game not using two, but that didn't last long). The broad strokes stuff like this was a given, it's the implementation of it all that's giving many of us pause.

Esp. with the information in the just created W5 QA thread, how are you feeling about the changes being made to how the Garou relate to the spirits and the Umbra; esp. considering things like TwoDSix's point about there already being Forsaken 2e to play that hits many of the same notes?

And thhere's so many needeed changes being made,I love the modenization that if feels like a game made in 2022,not a game made in 1993

Can you be more specific? What about the general information on the game so far, or this preview in particular, expresses this for you?

II love the art previews ,the art shown so far speaks to my aesthetic sense.

First off? Yeah the art (not the glyphs so much) so far is certainly on point. Even the new form-comparison chart is actually really well done (though it makes Hispo and Lupus forms small in a way I've expressed issue with, that's not on the visually impressive handling of the information).

The problem is... the art for H5 was also top tier, but in the end suffered the same problem HtR 1e had: it told a completely different story from what the game was actually about. What little W5 art we've seen is pretty vague, and I'm not sure what inspires confidence that we're not going to see a repeat of great art, but telling the story of a different game.

IDK. Even the long-awaited political correction of tribe names is a stinker.

In order to make the mod's lives easier, lets not rehash stuff from the locked thread? I think we can make the points we want to make by talking about either general trends in the W5 previews, or the specifics of the Auspice/Forms preview, without going back to this stuff.

[Damian May]

I feel like talking about Justin's,or any other writer's, personal life is not a very nice thing to do

My comment was entirely about his professional conduct and statements while acting in his role as Developer and Writer for White Wolf.

Also, I'm confident based on my interactions that he will be in no way affected or even remotely care about any anecdotes shared or any opinions I or others may have.

Or about your stalwart defence of everything he or other professionals have ever done or said.

[Asmodai]

I share a lot of Heavy Arms's sentiments on the whole affair, and seem to have had a number of similar encounters with JA and his specific style. And while I'd love him NOT to be doing this to WtA, I don't hate him nor am I calling for a lynching. I am just disagreeing with his views and vision, and he's doing a great job of convincing me to spend money on older stuff and keep teaching new people about the old game.

What I would like to address is how reductive and sad this vision of Werewolf is. The tribes could have been great if they leaned into the Revised work of making them more influenced by local cultures and less monolithic. The insensitivity could have been fixed while still keeping the legendry alive and giving positive cultural representation across the board. The Umbra, the Realms and the Spiritual interactions and the whole study of Faith as practical Truth was a fascinating facet of the game, one that provoked conflict and story and allowed you to lean into the narrative tropes in a game all about great tales of heroes. (and before someone walks into this with a superhero interpretation of the word, I mean most strictly in the original sense of Greek myth)

But what pains me the most is that Werewolf is a game about making amends, living up to your promise and trying to make a change even if it kills you. And it does it in a way where it says "sure, the world is messed up and we're probably going to fail... but we're sure as hell gonna give our lives trying". A lot of Revised was just about that - Garou stepping up and making amends and trying to make a change. This is a way more positive message than the whole "Jealously guard your last keepsake before it all goes away and hate everyone that came before you"

[MyWifeIsScary]

Okay, I'm going to try to explain why I dislike most of these changes.

For me WoD is the left looking at and trying to understand the right. This is probably purest in HtR, and each gameline includes rage against the establishment to a greater or lesser extent, but the fact that Garou society is traditionalist to the extreme is to me the entire point.
.

I think this nails the entire thing.
The world of darkness has always been written by lefties. Midnight Siege had a few sections that read like Marx trying his hand at dark fantasy. But the WoD, being a satire, has always focused on the right of the political spectrum: The vampires are analogues for the elite, the werewolves are mostly ultra conservative and reactionary. Most Mages live in their little ivory towers... Vampires are a massive net negative on mortal society and werewolves are failures because they refuse to adapt more progressive ways of dealing with things. If you take the right-wing out of these groups, what are you satirizing? If you make them progressive groups and they're still failing to win, aren't you undermining progressive values? This tone-deaf "modernization" of VTM and WTA actually ends up supporting the perspective of the Right.

[Heavy Arms]

I don't think, at least under Justin, the WoD is going to be actual satire. For lack of a better literary term, I find his approach to be a form of Brutalist design. The goal seems to be to strip out the extraneous to lay bare what is hidden by traditional facades, so you can see the subject for what was truly meant to be instead of what it was meant to look like. This goes along with his Twitter comment that they are no loner using the phrase "our word but darker," in the branding of the games.

If the WoD is being moved from satire to some form of literary brutalism, then it's treatment of the antagonists makes sense and, if executed correctly would remain on target as a leftist criticism of conservative institutions. Since brutalism is an extension of minimalism, the goal is to provoke deep thought through surface expressions. The simplisticity of the narrative is supposed to be a feature because it treats nuance as obfuscation from the intended statement of the piece.

Where the satire of the "legacy" games uses the world building and complex setting to provide context to the absurdities in conservative thinking those games sought to mock, Justin's design choices in V5 Sabbat, H5, and what we're seeing in W5 so far, all make more sense if the central point has shift from trying to mock their targets via they're comparisons to monsters being very on point, towards a criticism based on the flaws of the target of the criticism being too self evident to require that, and instead the criticism is more focused on highlighting what stops people from seeing/acting on the world as it is in its obviously flawed state.


Though, I do not think V5 Sabbat or H5 demonstrate a mastery of literary brutalism necessary to carry W5's messaging well.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Except it doesn't do that. V5 doesn't strip bare traditional facades. It creates new ones. V5 gave itself a heavy dose of political romanticism: everything is split into dichotomies; The conservative Camarilla vs the liberal Anarchs, the conservative Church of set vs the liberal Ministry of Set, gurl-powa cults vs misogynists. Generation used to be something people would kill their parents for, now it's a trap; a short boost of power in exchange for increasingly insurmountable hunger issues. It is both a moral and long-term strategic error to diablerize: vampire politics are essentially equalized and fluid rather than set in a hierarchy of power and the thin bloods get their own special power because the equality demanded by social justice demands it. This is romanticism. VTM once encouraged you to be a monster and learn from it. Now it encourages you to stay in your comfort zone and not challenge anything beyond what the script wants you to challenge. I fully expect this woeful change of tone to undo Werewolf: the Apocalypse. We'll move from "challenge the elders and their dated ways that cause problems" to "challenge a few elders that have strayed off the path they're supposed to be on" mark my words.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

The nature of the conflict 5e is presenting would feel more compelling to me if it felt it had depth, and nuance. Then I read the same approach of underwriting and undermining VtM since it's heyday, you get the whole "orgs" thing in Hunter and now WtA's whole generational divide because mumsy is dead or dying. It feels so surface level and written by committee in the sense of movie execs getting together on how they can "improve" a movie plot and the like. It really hit him for me with Hunter's whole, "No see you guys, you're the REAL hunters and all this organizations are old, tired and fake just doing it for a paycheck. " I picture in my head the point in which a paint by numbers Alan Smithee picture where everything must pause so that the audience can listen to some dry exposition explain to us what is going on. I don't know what this is, other than more of Paradox talking out both sides of its mouth when they say it's a return to 1e. I don't know what this is, it isn't WtA. It's a phase 4 cookie cutter Marvel movie coming off the Disney assembly line.

[Nicolas Milioni]

My comment was entirely about his professional conduct and statements while acting in his role as Developer and Writer for White Wolf.

Also, I'm confident based on my interactions that he will be in no way affected or even remotely care about any anecdotes shared or any opinions I or others may have.

Or about your stalwart defence of everything he or other professionals have ever done or said.

You do have point. I can get a little.overly defensive. I'm still bitten about how the offensive nicknames people gave to Martin Ericsson,it deeply reminds me of high school bullying I went through.
I can get white knighty,I'm a passionate dude about people,my therapist and I are working on self improvement and learning when to speak up and when to not speak up