W5 auspices and forms

[Nicolas Milioni]

To heavy, te 2022 thing is mostly because the game seems to have a greater focus on struggles that are distinctly modern and that were much less common In 1993.

[Knightingale]

To heavy, te 2022 thing is mostly because the game seems to have a greater focus on struggles that are distinctly modern and that were much less common In 1993.

You will have to go into more detail on that point because my immediate answer to that is a "no, that's not the case". Environment, injustice, generational conflict, Garou-culture being flawed... That was all there from the beginning. I don't really see where anything from W5 is a "new modern spin". It's different in comparison to older editions, sure - but there's nothing new that is added here in terms of tropes. Like, the switch from how Kinfolk worked to how the new Kin work... That's just fluff. There's nothing distinctly modern about that.

[Nicolas Milioni]

You will have to go into more detail on that point because my immediate answer to that is a "no, that's not the case". Environment, injustice, generational conflict, Garou-culture being flawed... That was all there from the beginning. I don't really see where anything from W5 is a "new modern spin". It's different in comparison to older editions, sure - but there's nothing new that is added here in terms of tropes. Like, the switch from how Kinfolk worked to how the new Kin work... That's just fluff. There's nothing distinctly modern about that.

Well the things that feel modern
The struggle of the garou with their capital Rage seems to have a new context,it's less of " I must control myself "and more of a "I need to reinvent myself* that feels 2022 to me,the whole reinvention of rage at the system
Pentex not being a evil corporation but an evil investment group that helps corporations do evil things ,it seems like such a small change but I find it modernizes it all.
Hauglosk,I love hauglosk because If you think about it,2022 is full of hauglosk,and its harming people.
The identity politics feel modern,people who grown up in the 2000's struggle for identity more immensely than anyone else ha ever done.

[Knightingale]

Well the things that feel modern
The struggle of the garou with their capital Rage seems to have a new context,it's less of " I must control myself "and more of a "I need to reinvent myself* that feels 2022 to me,the whole reinvention of rage at the system
Pentex not being a evil corporation but an evil investment group that helps corporations do evil things ,it seems like such a small change but I find it modernizes it all.
Hauglosk,I love hauglosk because If you think about it,2022 is full of hauglosk,and its harming people.
The identity politics feel modern,people who grown up in the 2000's struggle for identity more immensely than anyone else ha ever done.

I mean, pretty much all of that was already present in one form or another in previous editions.

Your first point about Rage... I don't think that's what W5 is going for. Justin talked multiple times about how Garou in W5 are "volatile". So "I must control myself" is still very much a central tenet for Rage in W5.

Somebody already posted about this on here but Pentex and its subsidiaries were already a thing in previous editions. So that isn't new.

Haugslosk... I mean, there are so many events in the old lore that are "Rage is making Garou do dumb stuff.". It didn't have that name but that concept was also already there in previous editions.

The presentation was deeply flawed but the identity politics of the conflict between Western Garou Tribes and the Native American Tribes is identity politics as well. Colonialism, racism, privilege... You name it. And the modern day lives in the aftermath of the mistakes of the past. And Black Furies with their feminist perspective were right there from the start. Feminism is identity-politics, wouldn't you say? All W5 can bring to the table is to expand the perspective in the same way the idea of identity politics has expanded. But identity politics is also just another thing that already was part of WtA.

[11twiggins]

Yes to be clear most of the claims that new nuance is being injected feel a bit fake. Pentex was already shadowy and complex. Werewolves were already conflicted and at odds with one another. If anything, from what we've seen so far, a lot of nuance and depth is being removed.

In my current pack, 3/5 PCs have stories where much of the depth and nuance is based around what Jachilles would call "breeding elements" or "breeding mechanics", terms I hate with a passion.

The non-binary PB 5 Fianna who ran away from home because they were being pushed into arranged marriages, traditionalist dogma and a fundamentalist sept with bigoted ideas. Who has a Garou and Kinfolk parent, both of whom groomed them to be this perfect 'son' who would further their lineage. Who instead chooses to live as a punk, doing the opposite of everything their parents believed in, reveling in making friends with people their family would have considered scum.

The blind Metis who was raised by CoG Kinfolk in an environment of love and tolerance, whose adoptive parents wouldn't let a single negative word about any Metis' biological parents pass their lips. Who, in spite of Garou society's hatred of Metis, loves himself as much as his adoptive parents love him, and stands tall and proud, announcing his Breed with as much enthusiasm as his Auspice and Tribe.

The Homid scientist whose father was a Lupus Garou, who would check in every 1-2 years to make sure she was getting on okay. The visits got more and more sparse as he couldn't smell the wolf on her, and eventually he simply stopped visiting, having ultimately mistaken her for Kinfolk. She devotes herself to being an ideal warrior for Gaia as a Kinfolk, becoming a top ecologist, pushing for better understanding of the environment and reintroduction of species which were lost to certain countries, like eagles and wolves. And then as she's starting her PhD she has a late bloom and suddenly guess who is interested in her again? Ideal dad, father of the year, eager to check in and see how she's doing and strongly guide her towards joining his Tribe.

None of these stories seem to be possible in W5, where the angle they're going for is that Kin (who crop up randomly) just become Garou, without rhyme or reason. Stories about the potential for toxicity and love in Garou families, Kinfolk families, are deleted. Instead we get a weird X-Men type deal. And it seems less than ideal.

All that said, W5 will prove a gateway drug for people playing W20, just as V5 has led to a lot of people discovering V20.

[TwoDSix]

Bah, the breeding mechanics were in Requiem. Plus if done right can be a great source of horror.

I never had a major problem with kinfolk, they're why the Garou are so isolated. If I wanted to rewrite them to be in a better position I'd give the lot of them Gnosis 1 and access to their Tribe's rank one gifts, and then stress their importance in dealing with human society at large. They lack Rage, but they're still servants of Gaia and have always fulfilled a role the Garou struggle to. The fact that Garou look down on kinfolk so much and in some cases treat them as nothing more than breeding stock is part of why they're losing and something the PCs are supposed to take issue with. Encourage the PCs to have kinfolk Mentors and Allies, and use that to make them champion kinfolk.

Just getting rid of them eliminates a lot of story potential. Plus there will be no possibility to play a kinfolk who tags along with a pack due to having legitimately useful skills.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

Yes to be clear most of the claims that new nuance is being injected feel a bit fake. Pentex was already shadowy and complex. Werewolves were already conflicted and at odds with one another. If anything, from what we've seen so far, a lot of nuance and depth is being removed.

Yeah, I almost hate to beat the drum on this but a lot of things that Outstar, Paradox, and the hardcore 5e media heads touts as new and innovative in 5e often ends up being something already in the games and/or especially something Revised already took a look at in contrast to 2e. It reminds me of video game awards and cons where some corporate talking head walks out and starts talking corporatese about this exciting new feature that you totally never saw before in their upcoming game........is just a slightly tuned variation of something you've seen in plenty of games before.