W5 QA

[TyrannicalRabbit]

would you come to a place like the opp forums to talk about v5 if you were a fan when you have people like mywifeisscary and others who basically piss and moan about it existing in any threads that even mention it?

no you wouldn't you'd go somewhere that people were being whiny babies about its existence ad nauseum

they go to discords and other forums that aren't here because this place is fucking toxic to people who like v5

people talk about v5 all the time on reddit but it has the same issue as this place with haters jumping into threads to cry about its existence

discords are quite busy such as the unofficial wod discord and the official one and other game discords

there are multiple facebook groups where discussion happens

again you have a super myopic view of what goes on in 'the community'

and hey i dont see a single listing on amazon (in the us anyway) except a currently unavailable link for v20. there's some character journals but no actual v20 books. and its cool that its still in local shops in your country but that type of release never happened in most countries.

V5 fans harassed me out of a moderator position with Hardsuit Lab's Bloodlines 2 discord because I *checks notes*.....didn't finish my original playthrough of Bloodlines 1 when it released because my first and only child was born and I had other priorities at the time.

Maybe understanding and learning it's okay if different people do different things in life and enjoy different things is the way to go here hmm.

[Crytash2]

Another point regarding the TTRPG market is that i 100% believe that V5 and W5 sold/will sell well in absolut numbers, but they are losing marketshare. I remember a lot of active games and servers online and i doubt that the numbers shrank, but the market in total just became huge during covid. Roll20, the biggest virtual table once had a WoD % of around 1,5-2% at 3 million users, now it has over 5 million users and WoD is down to 0,5%.


And before someone says those are not "real" numbers, a sample size (and yes, i know it is basically self selecting) of 5 million players is representative of an issue.

[MrNatas]

Just finished reading the Q&A and I'm still reading this thread but here's something that stuck out to me as odd when put together.

Is there a reason the Fianna have the only non-English tribe name?
Fianna is just a word, and it stayed because it gives a sense that werewolf cultures have occurred all around the world and been named in local languages. Much like "Garou" is French-based and "Gaia" is Greek, or in Vampire "Toreador," "Camarilla," etc. are Spanish but the greater concepts don't have any association with them. (I also like that "Fianna" helps break up the rest of the tribe names, which are more overtly "thing-doer" in construction.)

I'm sure this was already talked about but, I find this incredibly insulting. Saying that Fianna is "just a word" and thus can be used freely without any cultural connections or meaning is very telling to how Justin thinks about the world. Especially give the last statement of 'Fianna is just Cool' (I do not apologize for the pun). Like even examples of the words chosen are tie what they mean back to the things they are in WoD. Garou is werewolf in French. Gaia is the Earth Mother in Greek myth. Toreador is a performer/artist. Camarilla is 'a small group of people, especially a group of advisers to a ruler or politician, with a shared, typically nefarious, purpose.' That's why these things are used the way they are if you just wanted to "use a word that sounded cool" you are missing the point.

As Tribes ( is that word actually fitting at all now?) are completely distinct from any and all Human cultures and have no real points of origin anymore was there any consideration given to simply using Patrons as the third axis and doing away with tribes all together as they have no social or historical function any more?
The social function of a tribe relates to being mentored or just having commonality with those of a shared perspective. Tribe is sociological and anthropological but not necessarily familial for the Garou.

Tribe not being familial also isn't important to the separation from 'Human cultures.' Especially when you have also have this into the mix:

If tribes are no longer really tied to cultures then how will they format more now? Are they more tied to specific ideologies or more so ethical viewpoints?
From a game design perspective, tribes are driven by verbs, so the in-world ideology and culture emerges from those. Ethical outlooks are more complex, and each tribe certainly has different viewpoints centering around the what you do that tribes represent. Sharing a tribe with a Garou is no guarantee at all that you're going to get along with that Garou.

If these people exist in the world and drive their ideology and culture into the world and it spreads into people that are not related to the tribe but still like the ideology and then teach that to their kids, etc. You still get a subsect of people that are tangentially related to the tribe that may first change that go back to the tribe and thus have a synergy with Tribal Cultures and Human Cultures. Are we just going to say that Garou have not a single ability to touch outside their supernatural bubble in any form? This is compounded by:

Will the Fianna still have fey connections?
Not as an inherent function, but the Fianna are very strongly tied to specific places, so if there's a fae spirit of that place, the relationship could definitely emerge.

What specific places Justin? You don't mean Celtic regions do you Justin? That would be silly for me to derived that from what you previously said and the answer to this Q&A. Fianna sure is just a meaningless word that is tied to a specific place or people in anyway shape or form and just sounds cool and "break up the rest of the tribe names, which are more overtly "thing-doer" in construction." Even though if really if you look at all the names of the only tribes that are 'Thing-doer' are Bone Gnawer, GlassWalker, GaleStalker, and Silent Striders.

[Knightingale]

What specific places Justin? You don't mean Celtic regions do you Justin? That would be silly for me to derived that from what you previously said and the answer to this Q&A. Fianna sure is just a meaningless word that is tied to a specific place or people in anyway shape or form and just sounds cool and "break up the rest of the tribe names, which are more overtly "thing-doer" in construction." Even though if really if you look at all the names of the only tribes that are 'Thing-doer' are Bone Gnawer, GlassWalker, GaleStalker, and Silent Striders.

One big fear I have is that a writer will try to allude to the former ethnic ties in some fashion as a nostalgic reference and since it has to happen in one paragraph, thanks to bad writing it becomes a very essentialist (and offensive) description for an ethnic group. Now Justin mentioned that a diversity-consultant will proof-read W5 before it gets released so I'm also hopeful stuff like this will get caught and changed before release... but the presence of Fianna as a Tribe-name has me worried how resolute the Tribe-descriptions will be in avoiding any cultural and/or ethnic ties.

Another worry of mine is, though, that what's left is abstract and banal. Like Black Furies is the Tribe of people who want to fight injustce. That's it. The Patron-Spirit is doing their own thing while Tribe as an identity is barely relevant to a player-character.

[MrNatas]

One big fear I have is that a writer will try to allude to the former ethnic ties in some fashion as a nostalgic reference and since it has to happen in one paragraph, thanks to bad writing it becomes a very essentialist (and offensive) description for an ethnic group. Now Justin mentioned that a diversity-consultant will proof-read W5 before it gets released so I'm also hopeful stuff like this will get caught and changed before release... but the presence of Fianna as a Tribe-name has me worried how resolute the Tribe-descriptions will be in avoiding any cultural and/or ethnic ties.

Another worry of mine is, though, that what's left is abstract and banal. Like Black Furies is the Tribe of people who want to fight injustce. That's it. The Patron-Spirit is doing their own thing while Tribe as an identity is barely relevant to a player-character.

I have very little reason to believe that the tribes are going to be handled with grace given what I have seen. From what was show to us about their "verbs" which are supposed to be their entire ideology and culture and their Patron-Spirits, they are either going to be offensive or banal. They are going to be coded into human cultural stereotypes as their "verbs" create the perfect hot bed for them without the nuances of having a cultural backing. Are you a hot-headed edge lord? Red-Talon. Are you an anti-authoritarian radical? Black Fury. Are you a tech nerd hipster? GlassWalker. If there is no human connection between Garou and it's all vague "verbs" supposedly from your Patron-Spirit and these people don't even try to develop a culture outside that ... I don't know. It's really heartbreaking that it has come to this point.

[Ragged Robin]

My girlfriend has an observation on the disconnect with human groups and gaias death-" arnt all these changes going to mean you have far less personal investment in werewolf stuff as a character?"

Considering she's big on ecology both proffesionally and personally.. .

[MrNatas]

My girlfriend has an observation on the disconnect with human groups and gaias death-" arnt all these changes going to mean you have far less personal investment in werewolf stuff as a character?"

Considering she's big on ecology both proffesionally and personally.. .

Justin is trying to make Tribes into Vampire clans where two Vampires of the same clan might not be familial related but are related under their Clan Founder. Two werewolves might not be related by blood, but they are both Children of the Patron.

The problem with that that Vampires are tangentially related through the blood and seek clans seek to work together to get a head at every level of play (Street, City, State, World). Clans/Vampires want to be comfortable in a single place and make plays so they gain personal power and maybe share it with their clan. I.E. the Ventrue Prince will give Ventrue the best feeding spots and political positions.

This doesn't work for Werewolf basically at any level. Garou sitting in one place to "gain legend" doesn't really work when they don't leave the Caren and their is no greater plan outside that. The Black Fury Elder giving the 'best quest' to the Black Fury doesn't really work because packs are very rarely single Tribe and thus that reward would be equally given to all members and it's not like the Elder has any reason to help a younger member because they don't share anything besides some vague 'they are share the same god in name but don't worship them in the same way or have anything.' The Catholics and Orthodox may both be Christians but that doesn't mean they are going to help each other even if there is a bigger threat.

[Ana Mizuki]

Justin is trying to make Tribes into Vampire clans where two Vampires of the same clan might not be familial related but are related under their Clan Founder. Two werewolves might not be related by blood, but they are both Children of the Patron.

The problem with that that Vampires are tangentially related through the blood and seek clans seek to work together to get a head at every level of play (Street, City, State, World). Clans/Vampires want to be comfortable in a single place and make plays so they gain personal power and maybe share it with their clan. I.E. the Ventrue Prince will give Ventrue the best feeding spots and political positions.

This doesn't work for Werewolf basically at any level. Garou sitting in one place to "gain legend" doesn't really work when they don't leave the Caren and their is no greater plan outside that. The Black Fury Elder giving the 'best quest' to the Black Fury doesn't really work because packs are very rarely single Tribe and thus that reward would be equally given to all members and it's not like the Elder has any reason to help a younger member because they don't share anything besides some vague 'they are share the same god in name but don't worship them in the same way or have anything.' The Catholics and Orthodox may both be Christians but that doesn't mean they are going to help each other even if there is a bigger threat.

Heck, not all vampire clans are free from being tied to cultural identities. Tzimisce are very much Eastern European, Assamites are Middle Eastern, Lasombra hold ties to Spain etc.

On top of it all, you are far FAR more likely to run into a vampire from their clan homelands than a werewolf from their tribal homelands. Because werewolves live only 100+ years at the most favourable of cases, most often dying at 20-40 years old. As such, while a tribe might be -from- a specific area, the members of that tribe are spread out far and wide and have done so for centuries.

Plus, let us be honest, the expectation in 1e was that the PCs came from US of A. That alone shows how flawed the assumption of 'tribes are only tied to their homeland cultures' is.

[CTPhipps]

V5 fans harassed me out of a moderator position with Hardsuit Lab's Bloodlines 2 discord because I *checks notes*.....didn't finish my original playthrough of Bloodlines 1 when it released because my first and only child was born and I had other priorities at the time.

Maybe understanding and learning it's okay if different people do different things in life and enjoy different things is the way to go here hmm.

Yeah, the mods are trying to do their jobs and don't need harassment.

[TwoDSix]

Plus, let us be honest, the expectation in 1e was that the PCs came from US of A. That alone shows how flawed the assumption of 'tribes are only tied to their homeland cultures' is.

To be fair that expectation was around as late as Scion 1e, along with most of the players being there as well. I hated that game's firearms table for only referencing specific models.

But yeah, Tribes should realistically have members of many ethnicities and nationalities. Even the Silver Fangs should be able to trace their lineage back to a wide variety of royal dynasties from Europe and Asia. The alternative idea that most Garou are white makes little sense, except maybe to the Swords of Heimdall.

[Ana Mizuki]

But yeah, Tribes should realistically have members of many ethnicities and nationalities. Even the Silver Fangs should be able to trace their lineage back to a wide variety of royal dynasties from Europe and Asia. The alternative idea that most Garou are white makes little sense, except maybe to the Swords of Heimdall.

I think a massive issue with this is the mixing of ethnicity with nationality, which is common in the US. The assumption is, even if unintentionally, that if your family hailed from country X you then are as good as a citizen of that country. When in reality you have only grown knowing American culture with maybe few slivers of your ancestor's culture. So if you strip away the ethnicity of most PCs, they are still American.

(Obviously, Native Americans, recently immigrated families, POC families etc. are another situation entirely.)


I think this mix up is the reason for this change and why it feels so drastic. Because removing the cultural backgrounds doesn't actually -do- anything to most PCs, as they are already members of another culture entirely. What it is doing is removing roots from the tribes that inform why they do what they do.

Minus Fianna, because clearly everyone knows what the word means and it is an universal English word. /Sarcasm.

[Damian May]

But yeah, Tribes should realistically have members of many ethnicities and nationalities. Even the Silver Fangs should be able to trace their lineage back to a wide variety of royal dynasties from Europe and Asia. The alternative idea that most Garou are white makes little sense, except maybe to the Swords of Heimdall.

I mean....that is the case. There are Silver Fang Houses from SE Asia, Middle East, Russia, Germany, Britain ( as well as the standard US/Canada)...there are a bunch of Fallen Houses as well of somewhat vague heritage that may have once been present in India/Turkmenistan/Crimea etc. as well as Rome and others. I would agree a few more non-extinct Houses to the east of the Fertile Crescent wouldn't have gone astray.

[Newb95]

V5 fans harassed me out of a moderator position with Hardsuit Lab's Bloodlines 2 discord because I *checks notes*.....didn't finish my original playthrough of Bloodlines 1 when it released because my first and only child was born and I had other priorities at the time.

Maybe understanding and learning it's okay if different people do different things in life and enjoy different things is the way to go here hmm.

That's rough man, my experience with V5 fans wasn't any better, makes you miss the oWoD fans...

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I mean....that is the case. There are Silver Fang Houses from SE Asia, Middle East, Russia, Germany, Britain ( as well as the standard US/Canada)...there are a bunch of Fallen Houses as well of somewhat vague heritage that may have once been present in India/Turkmenistan/Crimea etc. as well as Rome and others. I would agree a few more non-extinct Houses to the east of the Fertile Crescent wouldn't have gone astray.

For information that's 25 years old, the SF houses being Mr. Worldwide is perplexingly obscure. Then again, even someone who was writing the original SF tribebook apparently forgot about those details by the time the sample characters were written. Or perhaps they written by someone else, before the houses were finalized; WW has had a tendency to not get freelancers on the same page together (MoEP: Infernals!) as well as not always writing parts of the book in order. Hence why, in spite of being a part of House Blood Red Crest, the sample Crinos-born Philodox character's Vietnamese heritage is from her Stargazer father.

(Also, the author tried to fit in some really terrible wordplay that doesn't even make sense because she isn't part Indigenous Canadian. Just... why?)

[Ragged Robin]

I think a massive issue with this is the mixing of ethnicity with nationality, which is common in the US. The assumption is, even if unintentionally, that if your family hailed from country X you then are as good as a citizen of that country. When in reality you have only grown knowing American culture with maybe few slivers of your ancestor's culture. So if you strip away the ethnicity of most PCs, they are still American.

(Obviously, Native Americans, recently immigrated families, POC families etc. are another situation entirely.)


I think this mix up is the reason for this change and why it feels so drastic. Because removing the cultural backgrounds doesn't actually -do- anything to most PCs, as they are already members of another culture entirely. What it is doing is removing roots from the tribes that inform why they do what they do.

Minus Fianna, because clearly everyone knows what the word means and it is an universal English word. /Sarcasm.

Revised actually leaned into this idea a lot, taking account of how tribes integrated into an area while still carrying what it means to be tribe. I remember the Welsh and breton fianna were quite distinct from Irish fianna which was a nice touch.

I feel that sort of thing would have been the way forward rather than just being a player class.