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  • The thing with V5's street focus is that it goes directly against the kind of characters I've seen people want to create. The first question is almost always something along the lines of 'can I play a 300 year old French princess'. Sure you can use that concept in a street level story, but not the one V5 pushes. You'll probably end up with something like 'assisstant to Manchester's Sheriff, looking to claw her way into a position with any actual authority' rather than a starving Anarch out to eat all the Elders.

    But if I want to mian about V5 there's a different subforum for that.

    But even ignoring stuff like 'no, you can't play a shareholder of Solar Cell Ltd', a lot of W5 feels like it's been cutting off popular character concepts. I like Metis, as flawed as they are, and most people I know love the idea of playing a wolf who turns into a human*. The Get are no longer an option, you're not allowed to be a character who's primary ties are to other Garou. It's limiting due to a very narrow view of street level.

    It reminds me of Unknown Armies 3e, which did yank the game away from the cosmic level. But it did so while at the same time empowering PCs and bringing official support to more options. Plus it really drove into themes that were already there, some NPCs had got what they wanted, others were showcasing just how much they were willing to sacrifice, and the PCs are directly asked if their goal is more important than being a functional member of society via the new character building mechanics. UA3 dialed up elements people liked, switched from a pessimistic focus to an optimistic one, and was an amazing follow up to the beloved UA2. Sure there was some major cleaning up (even if The Freak became a far less interesting character), but not in a way that changed the core themes.

    * Yeah yeah, lupus be squicky. It doesn't stop the view of 'wolves are cool, I'll be a wolf'.


    Blue is sarcasm.

    If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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    • Originally posted by TwoDSix View Post

      * Yeah yeah, lupus be squicky. It doesn't stop the view of 'wolves are cool, I'll be a wolf'.
      Honestly? If even the most human-focused version of W5 does not remove the lupus? I'd say we can bury the 'lupus are squicky'-mindset because if even 30 years later the actual devs are not removing the breed, the intent was never to be squicky.

      Embrace the wolf, ignore the haters.



      My gallery.

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      • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

        Honestly? If even the most human-focused version of W5 does not remove the lupus? I'd say we can bury the 'lupus are squicky'-mindset because if even 30 years later the actual devs are not removing the breed, the intent was never to be squicky.

        Embrace the wolf, ignore the haters.
        You'd be surprised how many people see the whole Shifters breeding with their own animals as not only bestiality but a major issue of consent (as in "can an animal give consent"). I think it's daft, but people get weird.


        What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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        • One thing that still bothers me is how that "punk"-aesthetic is supposed to make sense with how W5 is set up. Sure, Justin Achilli wants to rigidly enforce his vision of gothic punk for all WOD games. And so it makes sense that for V5 this means he wants the player-characters to be young Anarchs and for H5 it's a local hunter-cell. But the strangest thing about the setup of W5 is that you're not in a faction separate from the bigger well-known powerplayers of the setting. Instead, the setting is that the Garou-Nation has fallen apart and Gaia's dead/dying - but the player-characters are still Garou. I mean, in H5 the logic was that it was impossible to be a true hunter and be a member of a hunter-organization at the same time. But in W5 the Garou-Nation failed and the Garou of the past are losers - but the player-characters are Garou as well. Using the logic of H5, that would already mean the player-characters are compromised and can't be the good version of the splat.

          And really, considering that the Garou-Nation is no more and that Gaia's dead/dying, the Get and Stargazers shouldn't be the only ones forging their own paths for how to deal with the state of the world. All of the Tribes should have some forceful/individualistic takes on how to address the problems. I mean, why would anybody take the Silver Fangs serious in their mandate/ambition to be the leaders of Garou when the Garou-Nation is a failed organization?

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          • Originally posted by Asmodai View Post

            You'd be surprised how many people see the whole Shifters breeding with their own animals as not only bestiality but a major issue of consent (as in "can an animal give consent"). I think it's daft, but people get weird.
            I've been lucky and only seen few of those. Plus, I always find the consent thing funny, because a garou can -ask- the wolf form consent, since they instinctually know wolf body language.


            Knightingale I feel this is yet another sign of how clumsily everything is set up. The Nation has fallen... buuut the tribes are the main thing, so can't break those up.


            From the KS today;



            I think the Fenrir there is wearing wolf pelts??


            My gallery.

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            • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

              Honestly? If even the most human-focused version of W5 does not remove the lupus? I'd say we can bury the 'lupus are squicky'-mindset because if even 30 years later the actual devs are not removing the breed, the intent was never to be squicky.

              Embrace the wolf, ignore the haters.
              Honestly, after spending potential decades being a wolf for potentially extended periods of time I see no reason why some Homid lupus wouldn't end up joining wolf packs and having kids. But more importantly when people set down at the table to make characters nobody thinks about it.

              If the issue Isobel of consent then I can snap my fingers and make all wolves in the WoD sentient. Homid pups are expected to learn the local wolf language before their right of passage, and some Garou become fluent in languages all over the world. Repeat for all animals with a were version.

              Now we have to just deal with the fact that Garou have a built in date rape drug. Yeah, that's sure as hell not squickier than the lupus stuff.


              Blue is sarcasm.

              If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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              • But most animals are sapient by the definition of the word. They have emotions, experiences and learn and adapt to their environment. The books do note that most Homids are squicked out by it and tend to go for their own, however I totally see that after a while, and especially if you have high primal urge you might start finding wolves attractive, you might not. But you're both and there's going to be some strange reactions and urges that you don't really understand.

                As for Animal attraction that's bandied around quite often, but it's about as bad as most other mental/emotional influence powers and it should come with the caveats that it's not mind control and it's not about being picky, it's about going out and havng an easier time ending up in bed with someone who would have been open to it by skipping the pleasantries. But even with that caveat I don't think I've seen it used in the decades I've been involved in Werewolf. I've heard more about it in rants online than I did in any game stories or sessions I've participated in.

                Mind you, it's a moot point as W20 already limits it in a similar manner and makes it much more sensible. Interestingly I thought it wasn't in W20 as it wasn't in the index nor could I find it in a quick look through the pages, but I ended up searching for it in my PDF and found it.


                What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                • The only way I could see Lupus, wolves and all the ickiness potentially associated with that becoming an issue again depends on how Justin Achilli's current idea of the WOD manifests itself in the writing of the W5 corebook. Because Justin Achilli said that the WOD isn't "our world but darker" anymore but it's just our world due to the current state of the world. Especially because with how Kin work, the presence of Lupus means that random wolves will become shapeshifter at random points in their lives. Of course, this should have an impact on how humans treat wolves. But who knows how thorough the worldbuilding of W5 will be

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                  • You can probably ask six people and get seven views on how to fix it. Different people have different limits for what's okay in such scenarios, and we're probably saved a lot of the mess because most people aren't playing with people they want to roleplay sexual situations with.

                    It's probably why most games of Vampire actually kind of gloss over the feeding part.

                    Although by the standards of the WoD it's at least not the potential to mind-whammy someone into bed. Other supernaturals have far better tools for the occult scumbag than Garou do. But even if it's just about ending up with anybody, it doesn't matter who it's still not something I personally find comfortable.


                    Blue is sarcasm.

                    If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
                      As for Animal attraction that's bandied around quite often, but it's about as bad as most other mental/emotional influence powers and it should come with the caveats that it's not mind control and it's not about being picky, it's about going out and havng an easier time ending up in bed with someone who would have been open to it by skipping the pleasantries.
                      At no point in the game's history has the Social feat of Animal Attraction ever been a mind control power. All it does is make the other person feel a sexual attraction to the person. Needless to say, lots of people have felt sexual attraction to another person yet never acted upon it. In first and second edition, all they said was the more successes rolled, the more sexually attracted the person was to the character. In revised and W20, the books explicitly said the target can react to that in many ways and gave examples of why people may not act on it. A no point does the target lose their autonomy like they would if Dominate or Presence was used. It was always up to the character to decide how they wanted to react to that attraction. You did not even need to spend WP to resist. The character could just say no.

                      If people are running it like a mind or emotion control or even influence power, they have not read the rules.

                      There are lots of ordinary people who create the same kind of response in others. I am reminded of an interview with the creator of the TV show Moonlighting when he was talking about the difficulty to convince the network to hire Bruce Willis because they did not see him as a romantic leading man. It finally took one of the top female executives to tell everyone one that she thought Bruce looked like a "dangerous fuck". That sounds like an animal attraction style response to me.

                      For those interested it is in the Youtube clip below, you can start around 8:50 when Glenn talks about Bruce's sex appeal, and the actual quote comes in around 9:40.


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                      • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                        If people are running it like a mind or emotion control or even influence power, they have not read the rules.
                        Oh, I agree with you. The problem is that the perception and interpretation of it in the circles that loudly decry Werewolf and it's varied sins it's considered a "rape power" and another proof of how Werewolf is all about disturbing noncon sex stuff and genocide.



                        What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                        • There are plenty of issues with it even if you get past people overreacting to it; though keep in mind that a lot of people hate it because the earlier versions of it are not actually that well written.

                          Magical seduction aura isn't really something WtA has ever really benefited from. It's something supernatural as it's Garou specific, even if it's not Presence or Dominate.

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                          • Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
                            But most animals are sapient by the definition of the word. They have emotions, experiences and learn and adapt to their environment. The books do note that most Homids are squicked out by it and tend to go for their own, however I totally see that after a while, and especially if you have high primal urge you might start finding wolves attractive, you might not. But you're both and there's going to be some strange reactions and urges that you don't really understand.
                            I'd wager that most lupus would be at least as unsettled about being with humans or human kinfolk, especially since forces similar to what that drove Lilith in Exalted to live as an owl are going to likely play a role in the wolf-born getting as far away from anything human as possible. With humans hunting and running over wolves at some level from blithely apathetic to enthusiastically murderous, lots of lupus might have PTSD that gets triggered just from being in Homid. Expecting them to live intimately with someone who reminds them of how their wolf kin were slaughtered is likely a no-go. Even staying in Homid form for a while is asking a lot from those circumstances, not that the Garou Nation necessarily observes or cares much about PTSD.

                            Also, you know as well as I do that the S words of speculative fiction have always just meant "this isn't human, but it totally considers everything as a human". The newest hotness, I believe, was "sophont". No matter what, it doesn't really mean much, since anything with a body plan divergent from that of a human is not likely to think or act much like a human. On the other hand, a shapeshifter that has a human form can probably relate to either side fairly well, excepting the above psychological problems of one side frequently trying to kill the other. Hence, my rolling my eyes at every "playing a shapeshifter" entry for Shadowrun...

                            As for Animal attraction that's bandied around quite often, but it's about as bad as most other mental/emotional influence powers and it should come with the caveats that it's not mind control and it's not about being picky, it's about going out and havng an easier time ending up in bed with someone who would have been open to it by skipping the pleasantries. But even with that caveat I don't think I've seen it used in the decades I've been involved in Werewolf. I've heard more about it in rants online than I did in any game stories or sessions I've participated in.

                            Mind you, it's a moot point as W20 already limits it in a similar manner and makes it much more sensible. Interestingly I thought it wasn't in W20 as it wasn't in the index nor could I find it in a quick look through the pages, but I ended up searching for it in my PDF and found it.
                            Maybe change the mechanics a bit, so you're just adding PU as bonus dice on actions where it would help, in addition to the normal pair of Traits. As it is, there's too much rolling that goes into it, and the fact that it works against Willpower in more recent editions (as opposed to having Rage as a difficulty, in older ones) is one way where it gets off on a particularly bad foot, along with referring to the other side of the roll as prey. Fluff it as a heightened awareness of emotional conditions, and you might be able to keep it.

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                            • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              There are plenty of issues with it even if you get past people overreacting to it; though keep in mind that a lot of people hate it because the earlier versions of it are not actually that well written.

                              Magical seduction aura isn't really something WtA has ever really benefited from. It's something supernatural as it's Garou specific, even if it's not Presence or Dominate.
                              I tended to modify it as garou have +2 appearance to seduction rolls as their animal magnetism draws people to them. Thay way its more like making yourself really sexy in mage rather than creepy brainwashing, yeah they're hot but if you're not up for it you're not up for it.


                              I have a nagging suspicion the rule isn't getting into w5 regardless. Its already going to get weird enough when furries start using the "no metis" rule to bang in chinos form. I have no objections regardless
                              Last edited by Ragged Robin; 11-29-2022, 02:04 AM.

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                              • Considering WtA has both Merits and Gifts that make them great at seduction as it is (at least pre-W5), it's an extremely small investment if it's actually important to your character, and not really something that has much meaning to the game.

                                I once house ruled the roll out of a game and none of my players even realized it for a year. The Persuasion Gift and the Animal Magnetism Merit made our one PC that was actually invested in such things more than good enough to do what Animal Attraction does without needing it to be a thing.

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