W5 QA

[TwoDSix]

I went back to 1e, mostly because it was the book I had to hand, and checked what the book said. While it's been improved since then it definitely started out as a targeted thing.

Honestly though, it's kind of weird that the Garou have it as a power. They're generally going to be healthy and in good shape with a hint of danger, they'd likely be more successful at finding sexual partners than your average person. I wouldn't have an issue with that as a rule,or even the use of Primal Urge to manipulate base emotions as part of a character's attempts at seduction. It's the supernatural elements that irk me, combined with the idea that this is just how Garou are.

Yeah, vamps and mages have far more options for sexual scumbaggery. But Animal Attraction still squicks me far more than the rest of it, partially due to the fact it's inbuilt.

[MrNatas]

Animal Attraction feels like a Brucato-ism.

Once again, we hit a problem where certain world building setting things are ignored over the concept idea of "gothic-punk" that Justin is trying to be a herald of. I don't recall who said this but setting details are not something to be paved over so you can get to the "finish line" but instead something that should be expanded on to give the game depth. Having lupus being a pseudo thing in the setting but ignored for the 'blue bird activist' angle of the storytelling is doing your setting as a whole a disservice because it creates plot holes.

Paving over plot holes doesn't make your game smoother, it makes it look like a patchwork mess that just narrowly works as a road.

[Ana Mizuki]

I'd like to point out that the Fenrir crinos seems to be wearing wolf pelts, so it seems the Fenrir legitimately are just hunting other garou in their quest.

[Asmodai]

Animal Attraction feels like a Brucato-ism.

I still wish someone else got Bastet to write. I've had to do so much heavy lifting to actually make them more than what the bok presents them as.

[TwoDSix]

I'd like to point out that the Fenrir crinos seems to be wearing wolf pelts, so it seems the Fenrir legitimately are just hunting other garou in their quest.

Unless they're BSD pelts. Remember, they're intentionally removing ways to tell what is and isn't Wyrm tainted, so clearly the BSDs can't be routinely mutated anymore.

I'm guessing that Justin's favourite BSD in the antagonists chapter is the mayor of a small town who uses their position to allow fracking to happen in the nearby countryside.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Unless they're BSD pelts. Remember, they're intentionally removing ways to tell what is and isn't Wyrm tainted, so clearly the BSDs can't be routinely mutated anymore.

I'm guessing that Justin's favourite BSD in the antagonists chapter is the mayor of a small town who uses their position to allow fracking to happen in the nearby countryside.

Generally, it seems like wearing pelts is an edgy, stylistic design choice for promos, as Garou revert to breed form when they die, and very few are lupus. It's kind of like that one Strike Force Zero dude who has a Tengu skull on his desk - cool and all, but there aren't any Crinos-born Corax, so it'd kind of have to be something else entirely...

That aside, it could also be a tribute to their fallen packmates. If everyone charges into the breach regularly, you're going to get a lot of casualties, and that may be one way that they honor their dead.

[Damian May]

Animal Attraction feels like a Brucato-ism.

Once again, we hit a problem where certain world building setting things are ignored over the concept idea of "gothic-punk" that Justin is trying to be a herald of. I don't recall who said this but setting details are not something to be paved over so you can get to the "finish line" but instead something that should be expanded on to give the game depth. Having lupus being a pseudo thing in the setting but ignored for the 'blue bird activist' angle of the storytelling is doing your setting as a whole a disservice because it creates plot holes.

Paving over plot holes doesn't make your game smoother, it makes it look like a patchwork mess that just narrowly works as a road.

Bill Bridges.....theres a few things that I kind of wish Ethan had totally burned when he took over rather than just buffed down to nubs and smoothed over....maybe the Swords wouldn't have popped back up in W20 and led to the whole Twitterati believing all Get were Nazis and.....well...thats a lot of dominos.

I am rather amused by the whole lupus thing though, if theres no mechanical effect to being lupus theres technically nothing stopping my 14 month old walking out of the woods with a Phd, a defensive driving certification and the ability to build a PC from scratch.....

[Damian May]

I went back to 1e, mostly because it was the book I had to hand, and checked what the book said. While it's been improved since then it definitely started out as a targeted thing.

Honestly though, it's kind of weird that the Garou have it as a power. They're generally going to be healthy and in good shape with a hint of danger, they'd likely be more successful at finding sexual partners than your average person. I wouldn't have an issue with that as a rule,or even the use of Primal Urge to manipulate base emotions as part of a character's attempts at seduction. It's the supernatural elements that irk me, combined with the idea that this is just how Garou are.

Yeah, vamps and mages have far more options for sexual scumbaggery. But Animal Attraction still squicks me far more than the rest of it, partially due to the fact it's inbuilt.

I never actually removed it but over the last 30 years I can't recall a single player ever actually using it.

[Heavy Arms]

I am rather amused by the whole lupus thing though, if theres no mechanical effect to being lupus theres technically nothing stopping my 14 month old walking out of the woods with a Phd, a defensive driving certification and the ability to build a PC from scratch.....

There isn't exactly that much stopping you in W20 either though. Sure you'd end up putting almost all your freebies into it to get all three, but lupus PCs aren't exactly "fresh out of the woods," in general.

The number of lupus PCs that I've seen with high Law ratings esp. (because you roll Law for Garou legal stuff, so lupus Philodox need it for their auspice role) always made it clear that you had to hand wave some level of "lupus are really quick learners for their first few years after their First Change" so they could make a lick of sense as functional PCs.

I never actually removed it but over the last 30 years I can't recall a single player ever actually using it.

IME, that's better than actually seeing it get used. Despite what the books say, all four times I've seen people use it, it's resulted in two players getting booted out of the game within two months for constantly bringing rape-y content into play, a group dissolving over being too divided over it, and me leaving a group because... ew.

Players that wanted to use it, very frequently wanted it to be a magical date-rape ability no matter how much the text says it isn't one.

[Asmodai]

I don't think anyone here is willing to die on the hill of animal attraction, I've always found it a curiosity rather than an important part of who the Garou are.. The problem with any mind affecting powers is that irresponsible jackasses will use them. Is this the fault of Werewolf per se, or the people at the table being horrible people?

[Heavy Arms]

I think that phrasing belie the problem: it's both.

WtA gave werewolves a power that makes them extra good at getting laid via one-night stands. It doesn't really matter how much the text tries to dance around things to tamp down on the creep factor there. It's a mind affecting power that's there explicitly to get sex, and basically has no real function beyond that. W20 says it doesn't have to lead to sex if it works, but it doesn't really explain what else you'd use it for.

If you put a, "get laid," power in your game, you're enabling creepers to be creepy. Horrible people will still be horrible if you don't do it, but you don't hand them a mechanic that says, "your character has a creepy sex power!" and remain blameless when it causes drama at gaming tables.

Yes, broad mind-powers can be used in creepy fashions, but if they're broadly applicable, then people using them in disruptive fashions are actively picking disruptive things to do with them. Animal Attraction is a narrow power. You can't fall back on the argument that only works if the power can be used for other things.

[ArcaneArts]

I think that phrasing belie the problem: it's both.

WtA gave werewolves a power that makes them extra good at getting laid via one-night stands. It doesn't really matter how much the text tries to dance around things to tamp down on the creep factor there. It's a mind affecting power that's there explicitly to get sex, and basically has no real function beyond that. W20 says it doesn't have to lead to sex if it works, but it doesn't really explain what else you'd use it for.

If you put a, "get laid," power in your game, you're enabling creepers to be creepy. Horrible people will still be horrible if you don't do it, but you don't hand them a mechanic that says, "your character has a creepy sex power!" and remain blameless when it causes drama at gaming tables.

Yes, broad mind-powers can be used in creepy fashions, but if they're broadly applicable, then people using them in disruptive fashions are actively picking disruptive things to do with them. Animal Attraction is a narrow power. You can't fall back on the argument that only works if the power can be used for other things.

I feel like comparisons to Chroncle's Primordial Splat Power, Thicker Than Blood, and Forsaken' Cunning Facet of the Gift of Dominance are useful contrasts against how Animal Attraction has been presented and otherwised used by the text, but I will admit I'm probably not one to actually fully explore that.

[Heavy Arms]

Well, I can certainly give that a go.

Both powers referenced play into the existing CofD 2e Social Maneuvering system. This is already a step up, because while Thicker Than Water (an innate power) and Primal Allure (the Gift) are powers, they make the characters in question better at existing social mechanics (with the normal restrictions on how those apply), instead of adding a small side system just for one possible way to use them. One big aspect of this, is that Social Maneuvering's soft leverage (what you're using with these abilities) method works way better when you have studied or gotten to know your target. How much work things are going to take can swing wildly based on what you're asking them to do, and how they view it in light of various personal beliefs as represented by traits like Anchors, Aspirations, Integrity/equivalents, and so on.

Both powers also work on the same part of Social Maneuvering: impressions. Impressions don't have a direct impact on success or failure of the effort, but instead how frequently you can roll.

So, what both powers do is speed up your character working through the existing social mechanics in a select set of circumstances. Thicker Than Water only works on supernatural characters, and how well depends on the kind of supernatural, as well as only applying to your baseline impression which can still go up or down based on what your character does at the start of the Social Maneuvering. Thicker Than Water can't cover up for overtly hostile actions leading to a hostile impression, even if it can ensure that minor breaches in hospitality or protocol are ignored as simple misunderstandings. If a Begotten walks up to a Freehold and, despite obviously not being a changeling, starts trying to make friends with them, Thicker Than Water makes sure they can get in the door and make their pitch to be allies rather than it getting slammed in their face for intruding. Since Beast is a game that's meant to have the PCs interact with other supernatural creatures on a regular basis, this power is present as them being innately good at tapping into the bond between them and other supernaturals to help smooth past the supernatural's general desire to remain hidden from outsiders... and that's exactly all the power is really capable of doing.

Primal Allure is a bit more potent. Once activated, the werewolf using it gets a perfect impression with the target (letting them make a soft leverage roll every turn, rather than over hours/days/months). Primal Allure has two main restrictions on it: first it only applies if the action the Social Maneuvering attempt is trying to get the target to agree to is immediate in time frame. The examples are things like getting someone to step outside of a house party to get some air, or sign a contract: things that could be done in a few turns. While that perfect impression means you can attempt multiple soft leverage attempts in one scene, convincing a target to go off alone with you, remove some clothing, engage in single acts of physical intimacy, etc. would all require their own set of rolls and chances to screw up (even with a good dice pool, you don't want to end up rolling too much). The power doesn't even get into sex because the power itself isn't really going to result in sex unless the target didn't need supernatural powers applied for that to have happened in the first place. Primal Allure is a hunter's cunning trick to help isolate prey from the herd through guile instead of charging in and send the herd scattering. This could be literal (getting someone to leave a party because your pack is waiting outside), or more figurative (closing a business deal quickly while lawyers and advisors aren't around to push back against your efforts).

Primal Allure's other big restriction, and what helps keep down some of the potential creep factor, is that if it would force the target to make a breaking point check, that automatically ends the power, and the target is not necessarily aware they were under the sway of mind influencing magic, but they are aware that they've been doing something completely out-of-character for them; most likely turning them hostile. On a normal success, this happens before they do anything, and only on an exceptional success will they go through with the act then the power ends (meaning no more attempts that scene, and probably not for months). Combine with the point above about needing to roll off ever relatively small action you want them to do, it's really hard to escalate this power into creepy territory.

So, tl;dr:

The two powers mentioned both deal with supernatural mental influence that helps characters out in social situations, but by leveraging existing systems, being structured appropriately, and not even focusing on sex as something either are inherently going to help you with, they avoid all the pitfalls Animal Attraction has that makes it so popular to disruptive players. They are abilities that make characters better at things they're supposed to be good at, without avoiding them needing to be good at it without those abilities.

[Ragged Robin]

Bit a tangent but the only time I've seen the power used (on another player no less) culminated in the offending player being beaten with a baseball bat with silver nails in them and players new nickname was creeper Terry, with people doing the creep at him for about a month. Oh and he botched the roll.

I laughed so hard I farted.

[TwoDSix]

I'm seriously hoping that you didn't actually assault someone for using a power in a game.


But yeah, Animal Attraction is framed as a power about getting sex, which is something not even the vampire Clan that has 'ancient beast of sex and violence' as their core theme gets. Even if using Majesty to get laid isn't exactly hard, it's not framed as the point of any of the powers. It's not even something Garou would be bad at anyway, so having it as a power just makes Garou having casual sex bizarre and creepy where it shouldn't.