W5 QA

[Asmodai]

Pentex were always the way W5 is pretending is brand new. Achille talked about how Pentex *used* to have PENTEX vans which Fomori with PENTEX logo jumpsuits would jump out of. Jesus Christ. Bleak in its disrespect to the writers that came before him. Straight up lying about how Pentex were in W20 to make his version, which is literally just the W20 version by the sound of things, sound new and improved.

You are correct in how it's presented in the books and the actual material on the subsidiaries. However, a lot of Pentex branding was used for artwork of first teams and certain fomori. I never took this as something that would be presented factually in game like that, but as a part of the exaggerated graphics of Werewolf. Seeing how shallow his understanding of Werewolf is, I am not even surprised he thinks that's what Pentex is actually like in game.

And that's not even new for W20! It's as old as Monkeywrench! and Subsidiaries.

[Manfr]

Except that it lies on faulty assumptions. Any read of Werewolf books was showing quite clearly that they were in a ecologically darker reality than what was ours, in a way the game was prescient about where things were going. Yet there was hope and something to fight for.

I think that, in this regard, Heavy Arms's comment about Brutalism on the Forms and Auspices thread is very informative: Justin is not aiming at satire or warnings, he is presenting our world, as dark as it is, also with monsters in it.

This change in tone is the reason we have shifted from "bigger problems but also bigger chances to fix them", to " It's a mess, how do you deal with it? ".

I'm sure such an aesthetic is not for everyone's taste: I'm still not sure it's for mine, I want to see the final presentation. A complete lack of perspective would be problematic for player agency.

Generally speaking, it's would be a huge change in tone for the whole WoD.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

"I know you didn't like the unfounded exuberance for what the creative lead thought were new ideas back in 2016 but... have you considered a creative lead who has a few new ideas but still didn't read the material in-depth enough to reclaim it having unfounded exuberance for the project in 2022?"

[Asmodai]

"I know you didn't like the unfounded exuberance for what the creative lead thought were new ideas back in 2016 but... have you considered a creative lead who has a few new ideas but still didn't read the material in-depth enough to reclaim it having unfounded exuberance for the project in 2022?"

Hey, don't be so bitter, he has well-founded exuberance for removing fart jokes!

[voidshaper]

Not that I care too much at this point, but no mention of Fera. Pity.

[Knightingale]

Not that I care too much at this point, but no mention of Fera. Pity.

In the interview it was mentioned that "Ravenshifters" and "Spidershifters" will be part of the antagonist-section. There was also talk of bringing back werebears maybe later on in a supplement. But it seems like they won't be the Fera from old WtA. Stargazers, though, are still a Tribe that left the Garou-Nation and allied itself with other shapeshifters according to the interview.

[Ana Mizuki]

In the interview it was mentioned that "Ravenshifters" and "Spidershifters" will be part of the antagonist-section. There was also talk of bringing back werebears maybe later on in a supplement. But it seems like they won't be the Fera from old WtA. Stargazers, though, are still a Tribe that left the Garou-Nation and allied itself with other shapeshifters according to the interview.

....I fucking swear if we are going to get Azlu and Beshilu 2.0 here...

[Lunar Falcon]

My sentiments seem to align with most of the others in this thread.

By removing the glimmer of hope that was central to the original game, of maybe being able to make a difference, holding back the darkness for even one more day, these writers completely missed the point of the original game.

Achilli states the Garou are monsters and not heroes or good guys and doesn't understand that heroic doesn't always mean being "good". The Garou are deeply flawed but that doesn't mean they can't be heroes or perform heroic deeds. They sacrifice themselves to the point of near extinction to keep the world alive, they suffer for the good of others.

In mythology Hercules' trials were penance for the murder of his family but the acts he performed were still considered heroic.

The writing team should just drop the name Werewolf the Apocalypse and come up with something new because that is what this edition is.

[TwoDSix]

A thing about 'the apocalypse has happened', the last decade or so has actually been mostly positive in terms of climate due to technology maturing. There's no reason to assume future decades won't lead to further pro-environment gains. If the WoD is roughly following our trends then it's possible that the Garou have actually gained ground for the first time in centuries.

I'm sure the Glass Walkers and Children of Gaia are Insufferably smug about it.

Otherwise it's mostly confirmation that the new edition of Werewolf the Apocalypse isn't for people who like WtA, it's for people who like V5 and H5. Which I'm honestly not surprised by, WtA can be a hard sell and H5 confirmed that they're willing to throw out the unique parts to try and copy OPP. But for all it's jank and uncomfortable parts there's still a lot to like about Apocalypse. It was certainly more than the large scale rip and tear combat game some people viewed it as.

Also, in all honesty, this focus on the street level has me really worried about M5. How on earth is he going to tear that down from the epic battle for the soul of humanity it's been since 1st edition. 'The Technocracy has won'? They'd pretty much done that a century ago.

[Manfr]

A thing about 'the apocalypse has happened', the last decade or so has actually been mostly positive in terms of climate due to technology maturing. There's no reason to assume future decades won't lead to further pro-environment gains. If the WoD is roughly following our trends then it's possible that the Garou have actually gained ground for the first time in centuries.

.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-major-studies

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-pathway-1-5-c

We are greening the economy and society, but not that much, or at least not enough to avert severe climate change with all it entails.

But these two parallel facts perhaps explain why the Garou are going Apocalypse while the others are busy with Noddist prophecies and under-supported by rules' heists 😅

[Knightingale]

I mean, if we're talking real-world, things are indeed not looking good. You have the most recent ICC-report which is pretty pessimistic unless drastic changes are taking place (here's a summary) and the most recent UN-report said this:

According to the report, the combined climate pledges of 193 Parties under the Paris Agreement could put the world on track for around 2.5 degrees Celsius of warming by the end of the century.

Today’s report also shows current commitments will increase emissions by 10.6% by 2030, compared to 2010 levels. This is an improvement over last year’s assessment, which found countries were on a path to increase emissions by 13.7% by 2030, compared to 2010 levels.

[...]

“The downward trend in emissions expected by 2030 shows that nations have made some progress this year,” said Simon Stiell, Executive Secretary of UN Climate Change. “But the science is clear and so are our climate goals under the Paris Agreement. We are still nowhere near the scale and pace of emission reductions required to put us on track toward a 1.5 degrees Celsius world. To keep this goal alive, national governments need to strengthen their climate action plans now and implement them in the next eight years.”

But to bring serious things like that into a setting where things like werewolves, mages and vampires and spiritual forces like Gaia and the Wyrm are around... This obvious fantasy-version of our world should offer more in terms of narrative than just "Well, shit happens.". There should be something meaningful that your werewolf-character can do. I get the personal horror with Vampires, their undead existence at night and their struggle with humanity. But the werewolves' struggle is with the world around them. And what would be the point of that if one of the truths of the setting is that the world is doomed?

[Ana Mizuki]

And what would be the point of that if one of the truths of the setting is that the world is doomed?

The same point as in VtM; Your own survival. It is by no mistake that the point of 'the apocalypse is here, the war is lost' is repeated. If this removal of chance was unintentional, someone would have already pointed it out and it would have been fixed.

The focus of W5 is supposed to be personal. Not about what will you do to make things better, but what will you do to survive another day.


Your job is to hunker down in your caern, make deals with what spirits you can and hope that is enough to see tomorrow.


Here's my issue, though. Why are you hunkering down? Why are you so concerned about your own survival? Those are not the themes of WtA. Why aren't you out there, fighting to your last breath?

Why is it that the Fenrir keeping on the good fight makes them the bad guys?

Why is self-sacrifice seen as the wrong way to go?

[TyrannicalRabbit]

Reposting this to the topic as it seemed more appropriate here

The nature of the conflict 5e is presenting would feel more compelling to me if it felt it had depth, and nuance. Then I read the same approach of underwriting and undermining VtM Anarchs since it's heyday, you get the whole "orgs" thing in Hunter and now WtA's whole generational divide because mumsy is dead or dying. It feels so surface level and written by committee in the sense of movie execs getting together on how they can "improve" a movie plot and the like. It really hit home for me with Hunter's whole, "No see you guys, you're the REAL hunters and all this organizations are old, tired and fake just doing it for a paycheck. " I picture in my head the point in which a paint by numbers Alan Smithee picture where everything must pause so that the audience can listen to some dry exposition explain to us what is going on. I don't know what this is, other than more of Paradox talking out both sides of its mouth when they say it's a return to 1e. I don't know what this is, it isn't WtA. It's a phase 4 cookie cutter Marvel movie coming off the Disney assembly line.

I wasn't expecting much and still somehow came out horrendously surprised.

[Prometheas]

The same point as in VtM; Your own survival. It is by no mistake that the point of 'the apocalypse is here, the war is lost' is repeated. If this removal of chance was unintentional, someone would have already pointed it out and it would have been fixed.

The focus of W5 is supposed to be personal. Not about what will you do to make things better, but what will you do to survive another day.

If this is what the writers are going for... how has nobody looked up from their design documents and asked "Wait, is thee game we're making any fun to actually Play?"

Think about it, in a game focused on "personal" stories about hunkering down around the caern trying survive the apocalypse, most sessions will be big, fat nothing-burgers of characters sitting around talking, interspersed by meaningless combat that serves no role to advance anything.

The only way to perpetuate it enough to run a long campaign would be following a soap-opera formula that milked drama for drama sake and flanderizing characters until players are left with utterly unlikeable people fight over things that ultimately go nowhere.

The only alternative would be small one-offs that would get repetitive and same-y Fast.

The only way I can foresee this turning out is a bunch of new people coming in to play 5 games and then moving on to something else, forgetting about WtA 5 entirely and Not buying any expanded material.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

If this is what the writers are going for... how has nobody looked up from their design documents and asked "Wait, is thee game we're making any fun to actually Play?"

Think about it, in a game focused on "personal" stories about hunkering down around the caern trying survive the apocalypse, most sessions will be big, fat nothing-burgers of characters sitting around talking, interspersed by meaningless combat that serves no role to advance anything.

The only way to perpetuate it enough to run a long campaign would be following a soap-opera formula that milked drama for drama sake and flanderizing characters until players are left with utterly unlikeable people fight over things that ultimately go nowhere.

The only alternative would be small one-offs that would get repetitive and same-y Fast.

The only way I can foresee this turning out is a bunch of new people coming in to play 5 games and then moving on to something else, forgetting about WtA 5 entirely and Not buying any expanded material.

I don't mean it in a soapbox, boycott manner or anything such but I can say without a shadow of doubt that between interactions with Paradox, their treatment of CofD and their treatment of WoD means I have lost all interest in the video games present or future.