W5 QA

[Ragged Robin]

There was also something about Justin saying that young garou think most of the Litany is dumb.

The tenets used? Submission to those of higher station and leader may not be challenged during wartime.

I can see what they're going for their with the settings disdain for authority or success but I've always felt garou societies problems where more cultural than institutional. Elder corruption can't really hit vtm levels since attrition and turnover rate ensures a steady supply of Newblood in the upper levels, furthermore the practical realities of werewolf life would ensure some level competency. Simply put you can't get deckchair generals because you need actual success' under the belt to climb the ranks.

[TwoDSix]

I suspect 'the Garou Nation is no more' is going to one of those technically, but not really because we still need a power structure thing. So still angsting about the Litany and being told what to do by out of touch elders, but you're not going to be getting anything resembling support.

As to those two tenants, one is formalising the power structure that would have existed anyway, whereas the other isn't even strictly followed (hell, I believe one Apocalypse scenario has it broken during the actual Apocalypse). Sure, they're bad rules that need to be rewritten, but they do enforce a somewhat effective chain of command.

The idea I'm getting is that younger Garou are pushing for an anarchist system, which setting my own political views aside isn't a great idea when at war and doesn't really fit with everybody in the 18-30 demographic I know (some of us are legitimately on that extreme of the left, others are hypercapitalists, others authoritarians of one stripe or another, and many are relatively centrist*). Yes, I'd love to play a game of anarchist werewolves who see the Garou Nation as too static to not be Weaver tainted** (they'd be wrong but kind of have a point), but I'm not sure the game should focus on that rather than internal reformists.

* For the country thet live in, most UK centralists will be left wing by American standards.
** I'm still not 100% sure why technological progress is Weaver-aligned, my best attempt to understand it is 'development is of the Wyld, acceptance is of the Weaver'. I'm guessing that's due to me growing up in a noughties atmosphere.

[Asmodai]

If I was trying to highlight why a lot of young Garou don't like the Litany - even before W5 - those are pretty strong go to ones to pick. The games have frequently noted how much the leadership of the Garou Nation uses those to get their way and dismiss the younger members that haven't "earned" a say yet.

Of course, there's plenty of the Litany that would be very appealing to young Garou, and people that want a different game than what we're being told W5 is going to be, but Justin's posts and talks about all this haven't really engaged with any of the nuance in the legacy material.

What frustrated me about that statement is that it completely ignored the fact that these tenets have been inspected and questioned in both negative and positive light in half the werewolf sourcebooks including the Corebooks!

"Oh look, I'm changing something that never worked". Really?

[Saur Ops Specialist]

What frustrated me about that statement is that it completely ignored the fact that these tenets have been inspected and questioned in both negative and positive light in half the werewolf sourcebooks including the Corebooks!

"Oh look, I'm changing something that never worked". Really?

"'Something that never worked'?... You're going to need to be way, way more specific."

[11twiggins]

I can see what they're going for their with the settings disdain for authority or success but I've always felt garou societies problems where more cultural than institutional. Elder corruption can't really hit vtm levels since attrition and turnover rate ensures a steady supply of Newblood in the upper levels, furthermore the practical realities of werewolf life would ensure some level competency. Simply put you can't get deckchair generals because you need actual success' under the belt to climb the ranks.

Armchair generals do work in WTA - you get renown for successes. Successes can come from luck, being well equipped, having unsung heroes supporting you, having pure breed, good luck, good spin. You gain Wisdom for learning Rites - the child of a mighty Theurge will learn more Rites. You get Glory for taking down Wyrmish creatures - a Garou with an extensive kinfolk network will get more opportunities to do so. You can gain a lot of Honour, Wisdom and Glory for winning Challenges against other Garou in your rank bracket (your own, and one rank below and above) and this is much easier if you have high levels of pure breed.

I get why people think supernatural realities ensure that there will be more competence in higher ranks, but TBQH a lot of Elders in the Garou Nation don't need to be superstars, they just need to be decently good at networking, smart enough to not get killed, and capable of some half-decent spin at Moots. That's before you factor in PB, Kinfolk, wealth, being carried by your pack.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Or having, say, Hyperion/Katanka-Sonnak decide to grace your pack with patronage. Really easy to rid your stomping ground of vampires if the sun's Aetherial Incarna, for his own reasons, said that you were worthy.

[Ragged Robin]

Armchair generals do work in WTA - you get renown for successes. Successes can come from luck, being well equipped, having unsung heroes supporting you, having pure breed, good luck, good spin. You gain Wisdom for learning Rites - the child of a mighty Theurge will learn more Rites. You get Glory for taking down Wyrmish creatures - a Garou with an extensive kinfolk network will get more opportunities to do so. You can gain a lot of Honour, Wisdom and Glory for winning Challenges against other Garou in your rank bracket (your own, and one rank below and above) and this is much easier if you have high levels of pure breed.

I get why people think supernatural realities ensure that there will be more competence in higher ranks, but TBQH a lot of Elders in the Garou Nation don't need to be superstars, they just need to be decently good at networking, smart enough to not get killed, and capable of some half-decent spin at Moots. That's before you factor in PB, Kinfolk, wealth, being carried by your pack.

I get thay works to a degree but it really stretches that generation after generation of complete boobs running the show is entrenched to an almost farcical degree with some sense of merit based accesment present theirs only so far you can stretch that.

[11twiggins]

I get thay works to a degree but it really stretches that generation after generation of complete boobs running the show is entrenched to an almost farcical degree with some sense of merit based accesment present theirs only so far you can stretch that.

Not saying that idiots, fools, hangars-on and people whose only talent is internal politics would be the norm, but they'd definitely exist, and sadly hold enough sway to slow down the Garou Nation and cause it to... well look around. Does it look like the Nation is winning? I think it's a good element of a WTA game if the PCs learn to think that Elder doesn't always automatically mean truly wise - you can get 'Wisdom' from a bunch of arbitrary acts that imply you are working on becoming more wise, but the idea that your Wisdom Renown objectively denotes some measurable state of being wise seems silly, you know?

The Garou nation will have its share of incompetents like IRL organizations, and working around that is interesting.

[Heavy Arms]

This is kinda why I was hoping one of the things W5 would take from Forsaken was the increased number of Renown traits. The original three are very broad, and thus there's a lot of disconnects possible between what a character is "renowned" for, and what their Renown ratings are.

For example, in Forsaken, a character with high Wisdom and high Purity, but low Cunning and low Glory, is some that's going to be assumed to be very book smart and traditional. They're not the kind of person to come up with unconventional battle plans, or to put a lot of energy into personally upping the morale of their compatriots.

Both games present the biggest source of inefficiencies in organizations not as strict incompetence, but as there being too many jobs for the number of people at hand; thus a lot of werewolves are doing stuff that needs to be done, but not necessarily what they're best at doing. In WtA it has been frequently advised to STs making their own Septs to have a lot of the Sept positions either be unfilled or having one Garou taking on two or three of them.

It doesn't mean there are no incompetents in the Garou Nation of course, but it's a much better fit for why mistakes happen when there is a merit-based system in place to try to elevate competent individuals. Even if you want your Elders to be antagonists, it's usually better if they're some sympathetic element to them as well. Elders that are overly heavy handed with putting the PCs down a few pegs is a more interesting story if said Elder is also holding down three Garou's worth of jobs alone and a bunch of upstarts are just making that even harder. It also gives the players a lot of options in how to resolve things because reforming the system is more viable if there are directly solvable problems stressing the system to its breaking point.

[Asmodai]

While I do belive there are people who got their renown through chicanery and dishonesty holding important positions in the nation, I believe them to be a tiny minority. They are not the biggest problem of the Nation, the bigest problem of the nation are the actual legends that crew commonplaceant and fixed in rote activity and repetition of things that were relevant when they were rising up. This clash in perspectives and old heroes whose pride causes them to miss the problem is the biggest hurdle to fix in the Garou Nation.

[Damian May]

Gotta say I'm glad that we can still actually have these discussions here as elsewhere ( RPG.net, reddit and others) it seems like those who seemingly think we have had no information about W5 released and must therefore wait until the complete corebook is released before offering a critique are very good at smashing the mod-button until discussion is shut down.

[Ragged Robin]

I've always seen their issues as cultural as well as fallout from bad historical decisions. One of the suggested solutions I heard around the table once was reforming from tribal to fuedal while not ideal might allow for cohesive policy and massed cohesive assaults on enemy assets.

Gotta say I'm glad that we can still actually have these discussions here as elsewhere ( RPG.net, reddit and others) it seems like those who seemingly think we have had no information about W5 released and must therefore wait until the complete corebook is released before offering a critique are very good at smashing the mod-button until discussion is shut down.

I mean it's rpgnet- I've seen people eat bans for not agreeing with the mods loadly enough or in the 'correct' way.

[11twiggins]

It feels like the Garou nation is stuck in a perpetual adolescence of not quite being a global organization, not quite a local organization, not quite ruled by a central king figure (the guy is a new yorker whose own tribe don't entirely back him), not quite ruled by local figures, a sorta franchise sorta prehistoric society sorta warrior raiding culture. It's a mishmash of a bunch of things that have sorta-worked at various times. Why do they have too much work to do and too many jobs? Well healing and tending the land had whole species dedicated to them, and those are gone now.

It's really impossible to pin down why the Garou are struggling because there are like 100 reasons. They killed their Fera allies, three tribes were lost, they don't recognize their own propensity for Wyrmish activity as warriors and destroyers, they undervalue and ignore Kinfolk, they are disorganized, one tribe proclaims divine right monarchy and the others neither reject nor embrace it but instead do a secret third option, two of the living tribes sorta hate the rest and with pretty good reason, their enemies are much better at manipulating human society, a lot of problems are better solved without violence and very few Garou packs are into that (PCs are often the exception), pure breed elevates people whose main talent is pseudo-hypnotizing and out-competing other Garou but have no advantage when it comes to facing the rest of the world, a Breed which is a crucial asset are mistreated, and a whole Tribe are pushed half out the door by contempt. That's before you get to more complicated stuff like the Litany being abused/misused, Elders being stuck in the old ways or thinking the way they gained Rank is the right way to do it, Camps with goals which are poison to the whole nation, and some basic supernatural realities the Garou can't do anything about like Rage.

Basically if you want to fix the Nation you're spoiled for choice with things to address. And that's good. From what I've seen W5 is happy to strip a lot of that away.

[Damian May]

Deleted off topic randomness.

[MyWifeIsScary]

It's entirely possible for Heroes to fall and for corrupt elders to have originally been bright eyed pups just trying to good in the world. They get an injury, or in a serious spat with a spirit, or with another tribe member, and boom: they're disillusioned and just want to look after themselves. When you're 20, you've got little to lose and much to gain, so going on crazy adventures into a hive of demons is par for the course and you can get great renown like this. When you're 40, you have kids, reputation, valuable items and resources, good allies; you can live very comfortably and provide for the limited few in your circle without seriously bending the rules.


The litany makes pretty good sense if you have a sit down and talk about it. I don't see why the young disliking it would be popular, it's just the realities of war. IRL even Anarchists formed military hierarchies. The litany is like 90% common sense for a people at war (who also make unfortunate monsters when they have sex with one another)