W5 QA

[Heavy Arms]

Branding explains why it's still called Werewolf: the Apocalypse. It doesn't actually explain the level of reboot implied by Justin's comments. What do all these changes do for the brand? How are they going to make the game more popular? More appealing to companies looking for IPs to use for the bases for their video games/comics/novels/TV shows/etc.?

A reboot only helps branding if it actually increases the value of the brand. Reboots can absolutely achieve this. I've got a user name and avatar pic from a Gundam show. The Gundam franchise "reboots" so much that you can't really call it that compared to it being more of an anthology series of media will some consistent elements. And the whole point of the constant new shows with new takes on things is utterly simple: new takes means new mobile suit designs, which means new Gunpla model kits to sell, which is the actual commercial value of the brand.

That logic is what none of us seem to be able to glean from what we know. Paradox wants to keep the old WoD brand, because they see it as valuable, but we're not actually seeing how it's been leveraged to make money...which is kinda the whole point.

[Ana Mizuki]

Maybe Paradox decided to give JA free hands since he is a WoD veteran?

[Ragged Robin]

Branding explains why it's still called Werewolf: the Apocalypse. It doesn't actually explain the level of reboot implied by Justin's comments. What do all these changes do for the brand? How are they going to make the game more popular? More appealing to companies looking for IPs to use for the bases for their video games/comics/novels/TV shows/etc.?

.

On a practical level they're probably not, the setting is losing a lot of its flavour in an era were urban monster settings are common and these decisions are going to aggressively split the fandom even if the games amazing. My thoughts on it are someone on the command chain is either not supervising how the game is being developed or has massive error in understanding the product.

[Knightingale]

Branding explains why it's still called Werewolf: the Apocalypse. It doesn't actually explain the level of reboot implied by Justin's comments. What do all these changes do for the brand? How are they going to make the game more popular? More appealing to companies looking for IPs to use for the bases for their video games/comics/novels/TV shows/etc.?

My issue with both H5 and what has been previewed of W5 so far is there's always what Justin Achilli explains he wants to do and then not seeing it well implemented in the actual game. Like when he talked about heists in describing H5. Here with the idea of doing a reboot and also this decision of removing lore without adding anything of equal value, I think he explains his idea in this tweet (and one other reply from him that seemed relevant):

Seeing all this nastiness around pop-culture IP and fidelity to fictional lore. This sort of community friction is exactly what we’re designing to avoid with WoD5. Interactivity-based world development with “what you can do” over “what happened in a now-untouchable past.”

WoD team focuses thematics (albeit in a spectrum rather than a fixed point), but we're the first to encourage you to go your own way. WoD is a buffet! Choose the parts of it that give you the best stories, and tweak what you will!

I mean, story-first "interactivity-based worldbuilding" sounds all well and good when it's in a game that supports that. What it amounted to in H5 and seemingly also in W5 is to do barely any worldbuilding and just say "Here you go, Storyteller, you go figure this out.". For example, a good PbtA playbook may not be overly specific with its worldbuilding but you still get way more specificity of what playstyle the Playbook aims for compared to the overly broad Creeds in H5. In its implementation "interactivity-based worldbuilding" means that people at the table seemingly have to do 90% of it and the book just expresses some broad thematics.

Also, taking a brand like WOD which has grown to have extensive lore and worldbuilding as one of its central pillars and removing that doesn't exactly sound like a recipe for avoiding community friction...

[Ragged Robin]

He's also fundemently wrong in his approach you want heavy scaffolding via coherant lore and tight mechanics. This gives players a comfort point to build on, modify or fall back on. It also allows for commonality of experiance for players. For example, I might decide Croatan still exist on my game but theirs a solid conception of what a Croatan is even if you're not in my game.

[Koronus]

I mean, story-first "interactivity-based worldbuilding" sounds all well and good when it's in a game that supports that. What it amounted to in H5 and seemingly also in W5 is to do barely any worldbuilding and just say "Here you go, Storyteller, you go figure this out.". For example, a good PbtA playbook may not be overly specific with its worldbuilding but you still get way more specificity of what playstyle the Playbook aims for compared to the overly broad Creeds in H5. In its implementation "interactivity-based worldbuilding" means that people at the table seemingly have to do 90% of it and the book just expresses some broad thematics.

Also, taking a brand like WOD which has grown to have extensive lore and worldbuilding as one of its central pillars and removing that doesn't exactly sound like a recipe for avoiding community friction...

It may only be me but I always thought the idea of the new edition is so we can have more stories about the world and go in to the new age with the feeling of that times change and see how things evolve because the 20thA version where for those that do not want to play with metaplot and rather make their own stories.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I've met like, one guy IRL interested in metaplot. Unless someone comes along and slaps you in the face with something absurdly obtrusive and asinine like "The Ganrel have left the Camarilla" or "The prime chantry blew up and Tremere have seperated" or "The Camarilla have decided to give up on their monopoly and embrace everything they sought to destroy because a worldwide network of hunters they failed to detect and can't really deal with hit a bunch of places at once" or whatever then people just don't care. Related: I've never played a DnD game in any of the main established settings, everyone's all too happy to use whatever they've got in their heads.

Metaplot is great for nerds talking to nerds, but
1: The WoD has pretty shit metaplot. Soap operas are comparatively merciful.
2: most players are far more casual, or at least they can't maintain such high levels of investment for every single geek think they do.
3: Literally everyone is far more invested in their own characters and stories than they are interested in Jonas Albrecht, even the guy I met that loved Jonas Albrecht.
4: there's a lot of really interesting things in WoD that are fun discussion topics that aren't metaplot related, like the origin of the Baali or what clan is best for a player, so it's not really needed.



W20 isn't enough. The whole 20th line is flawed. It's just revised with a little more restraint and optimism. Mechanically there's much to be desired, and fluff wise there's still loose ends and stuff that really needs retconning.

[TwoDSix]

Yeah, there's a reason the best received metaplots in RPGs are generally light. But even among those who care we can disagree on the worth of developments (I dislike most of the changes to the Camarilla but love the splintering of the Tremere, although I'm not a fan of House Carbs). Honestly a lot of the V5 changes make sense if you are looking for a soft reboot going back to the days of early 2e, but most fans didn't want a reboot.

I also suspect that WoD5e, like CofD, is intended to have as few major developments as possible. Which works in CofD because most of it's metaplot is just updating to reflect major RW events, but I'm not sure it will in WoD5 as we already have a world changing event actually happening, and that loses it's teeth. That's likely why W5 moves the apocalypse from tomorrow to yesterday, if it's already happened then there's no need for the payoff that changes everything (which, let's be fair, Revised actually delivered on).

[Shakanaka]

Maybe Paradox decided to give JA free hands since he is a WoD veteran?

I think that is one of the chief problems here.

Paradox just foisted the direction of the entire franchise to JA just because he was a WoD "vet".

They should have brought in people with the most experience to the gamelines they worked on. Now all we get is whatever H5 and W5 is.

Hell, people said he was good at working with the Sabbat back in the Revised Era (EDIT: well before I was even alive.. but that's all the info I'll give, as not to doxx myself lol).. but then we get them completely gone/relegated to NPCs in V5.. completely bizarre.

I'm glad JA has moved onto something else, but I really worry who in the world Paradox is going to make lead oWoD next...

[Heavy Arms]

I'm not sure what it says exactly, but Paradox has said that they're not filling Justin's open position for now. They might just be waiting to see how W5 lands before deciding what to do, but it's a strange move.

[Knightingale]

Yeah, it certainly was unexpected and I wonder what it says about development for W5. After all, in October last year there was a lot of talk of "work in progress" and then two months later all the writing was finished supposedly. Of course, it had to be finished by then as it turned out because Justin Achilli started his new job in early January. Also strange is that Justin and the team worked on outlines for M5 and other splats last year. I mean, when did Justin decide to leave and start this new job...? But the position is unfilled and they're not even looking for someone to fill the position right now.

[MrNatas]

I'm not really sure what this means for x5 going forward. Paradox not filling the slot of creative lead might mean that they are having an internal discussion about what to do going forward. Which could mean a lot of things. I'd like to have hope that it means they are really asking what they want to do with the property and who to be its steward.

At this point I'm just in a wait to see what happens mindset. I think its really to early to speculate what's going to happen besides whatever projects almost done get finished and pushed out.

[Shakanaka]

If W5 does poorly like H5, I wonder if they're just going to scrap the entirety of 5th edition.

[Knightingale]

W5 was already a big thing for being another big release for WOD5E (after V5 and H5 is just... both qualitatively and in terms of brand-recognition on the weaker side), it would be the first big release with Justin Achilli as Creative Lead, it would also be the first corebook to be released with simplified rules (the rest of the rules are in the Expanded Rules pdf on a website), it's also the first WOD5e actively saying "This isn't a continuation of old WOD."... So lots of things to evaluate in how well this all worked out when the book comes out.

Of course, Justin Achilli already working somewhere else right now is another big thing. Especially because that makes it a bit of a lose-lose for WOD5E. If the book's badly written, doesn't sell well or another writer has tripped over themselves tackling serious subjects and caused another controversy... well, the guy ultimately responsible for producing the bad book is already gone anyway and everyone can just say "Better luck next time!" and the remaining WOD-team has to deal with the fallout. If the book is well-written, sells well or a serious subject has been handled well... then the guy responsible for that has already left.

[Heavy Arms]

It feels like there's a simple and likely explanation for why Paradox isn't filling the position:

They're going to pass it on to Renegade with H5, W5, and the prelim work on M5 as their "game bible" for how to proceed according to Paradox's wishes.

Since developing the core books in house and then shopping out supplements to partners hasn't really panned out for them regarding setting a solid foundation for more profitable projects, it makes sense to have had Justin set the base-line for WoD5 products and move everything out of house onto Renegade, and then reallocating in house resources to video game development and selling the brand to potential partners in other spaces. Moving the WoD5 from caring about world building (which it certainly did at first with V5) to caring more about themes wrapped in a specific aesthetic like H5 does and W5's previews/etc. imply, then Paradox doesn't really need to care about what future TT books for the games really do. A minimalist approach to world building means that video games and other properties can do whatever works for what they're trying to do individually as long as it fits within the gothic-punk concepts laid out, and then slap on the game relevant lingo to make it a branded product.

I'm not sure it's a good idea, but it seems a fairly simple explanation for where things are headed: stop worrying about TTRPG books now that they have a standard they like set for them, move on to making more profitable stuff unfettered by TTRPG world building as long as there's just enough to ensure brand identity.