W5 QA

[Knightingale]

Yeah, I can picture that. The WOD-team gets disbanded. Only Outstar as community manager, the license manager (who still negotiates doling out the WOD-license to video-game-companies), some other admnistrative people but ttrpg-developement is done solely by the team at Renegade. Would be fitting as well, all Renegade seems to do is produce IP-RPGs anyway (Power Rangers, GI Joe, Transformers...).

[Metalbird]

I think, if what you're saying is true, it will be a very a bad decision for the WoD future (and one that shows how much Paradox doesn't know anything about the Ip they purchased). I mean, the profit inside the TTRPG industry is small. But if W5 does poorly like H5 surely did inside its original media, what media company would even consider to invest in a ip which only make flop after flop? Even more, the RPGS that are turning into transmedia frachises was well received inside the original RPG industry (I'm speaking about Cyberpunk Red and D&D5). The things gets worse when you see that V5 related stuff, the most important and famous line inside WoD, was pretty mediocre or hasn't got any type of recognition outside of the original fanbase, the one which has mixed feelings about this new edition too. And also, we have that the rest of wod lines (even Werewolf and Mage) aren't known outside of the Wod fanbase and even then , most of the lines are pretty niche and, also, were an economic failure back in the 90's like Wraith or Changeling ( the problem with those lines is even bigger , when we see their status like cults RPGs nowadays, that it translates into very small but ,also, loyal fanbases that will dislike the types of changes we are seeing with Werewolf (also we have a precedent with H5, which was rejected but almost all the original Hunter the Reckoning fanbase and bring the original game into a small renaissance inside Reddit)) Also why Renegade? Onyx Path has shown all the time that it will be the best option if Paradox doesn't want to see how the ip sink even more into the indifference in the next years

[11twiggins]

It feels like there's a simple and likely explanation for why Paradox isn't filling the position:

They're going to pass it on to Renegade with H5, W5, and the prelim work on M5 as their "game bible" for how to proceed according to Paradox's wishes.

Since developing the core books in house and then shopping out supplements to partners hasn't really panned out for them regarding setting a solid foundation for more profitable projects, it makes sense to have had Justin set the base-line for WoD5 products and move everything out of house onto Renegade, and then reallocating in house resources to video game development and selling the brand to potential partners in other spaces. Moving the WoD5 from caring about world building (which it certainly did at first with V5) to caring more about themes wrapped in a specific aesthetic like H5 does and W5's previews/etc. imply, then Paradox doesn't really need to care about what future TT books for the games really do. A minimalist approach to world building means that video games and other properties can do whatever works for what they're trying to do individually as long as it fits within the gothic-punk concepts laid out, and then slap on the game relevant lingo to make it a branded product.

I'm not sure it's a good idea, but it seems a fairly simple explanation for where things are headed: stop worrying about TTRPG books now that they have a standard they like set for them, move on to making more profitable stuff unfettered by TTRPG world building as long as there's just enough to ensure brand identity.

But *what* brand identity. When most people hear World of Darkness they think VTM (most often Revised or V20 - even people who get into V5 seem to then gravitate towards V20!) and VTM Bloodlines. People who are into TTRPG are aware of Werewolf and Mage, generally speaking.

The idea that there's some million dollar brand identity to build off of to make video games and other more 'profitable' ventures is ludicrous as far as I can tell. I simply don't believe that they can put the wagon before the horse on this one; if they want to make a AAA mega profitable sales-record smashing VTM/WTA/MTA etc. game then they need to make a beloved edition of the game that gets people excited about the 'IP'.

Also, god I hate talking about creative works in this way - everything is IP, marketing, having a base for some BIGGER more profitable venture... ideally I'd rather WoD was in the hands of some weirdos who just want to make a good TTRPG and break even.

[Ragged Robin]

It does seem rather self defeating long run to view the core game as little more than a platform to launch video games from . Even the mcu is losing steam partly because nobody cares about the b team and new guys the comics have been desperate to set up for years now. Does anyone anywhere give a single shit about kang and with that in mind why are they banking on more people being drawn in by w5 than pushed away?

[Heavy Arms]

But *what* brand identity. When most people hear World of Darkness they think VTM (most often Revised or V20 - even people who get into V5 seem to then gravitate towards V20!) and VTM Bloodlines. People who are into TTRPG are aware of Werewolf and Mage, generally speaking.

Bloodlines brand identity really,even if they don't end up calling it that after BL 2's first attempt.

The announcement of Bloodlines 2 was huge in the video game news sites. The buzz and hype for it was big. There was, and I don't think it's unfair to say still is, a desire for more of that.

If Paradox can reallocate their internal resources, and pull off a BL 2 game at high quality, they can easily reverse how things have been going for the brand. Though they have to not ruin it later too.

Not only is that a bet with some reasoning behind taking it, it's also really the only bet they have left if they want to make the WoD a profitable brand for them. It's plan G or H or something at this point, but I don't really see how they have another option. Either they make a video game that succeeds not just as a game but as at least a spiritual successor to BL 1, or the WoD brand is probably headed for another sale like what happened after CCP couldn't get the WoD MMO to happen.

Also, god I hate talking about creative works in this way - everything is IP, marketing, having a base for some BIGGER more profitable venture... ideally I'd rather WoD was in the hands of some weirdos who just want to make a good TTRPG and break even.

I'd rather it was in the hands of someone that can do better than break even, because breaking even isn't sustainable.

And sure, it sucks this is what we have to talk about these games right now, but... that's just the nature of what's going on.

Even the mcu is losing steam partly because nobody cares about the b team and new guys the comics have been desperate to set up for years now. Does anyone anywhere give a single shit about kang and with that in mind why are they banking on more people being drawn in by w5 than pushed away?

I'm not sure that's really a viable comparison. The MCU is losing steam because big blockbusters (that is the C in MCU) lost a lot of steam the last few years in general, and the MCU is doing gangbusters on Disney+ (so the U in MCU). Given how well most of the MCU streaming shows have done, people absolutely care about the "B team" Avengers, the Young Avengers (which are very popular characters in the comics side of things), and the Thunderbolts. Disney seems to have realized the MCU is actually a lot better with less big movies so that a few big movies don't overwhelm people, while using streaming shows to rake in a lot of subscriptions (they're also cut back on Star Wars movies to do more Star Wars shows, and by all accounts it's working).

Realizing that your IP is better off as a bunch of shorter streaming TV shows punctuated by major movie events (in essence being more like the comics with lots of individual series and then major crossover events) and adjusting accordingly is not the same as never figuring out a functional way to handle an IP in the fist place and floundering to try to do something to start making it profitable before you end up selling to to try to regain some of the investment you made up front.

[tasti man LH]

And even then regarding video games and Bloodlines 2...from the outside looking in, their strategy thus far doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

-While yes, there was initial hype for BL2, a lot of it dissipated once we had the newest developments of Brian Mitsoda, the lead dev of the first game and narrative lead on 2, getting fired off the game, and the game getting pulled from its developer and given to a still-unannounced studio (that we've heard nothing about for almost two years).

-And in general no new WoD video games have been announced (of the non-Jam kind).

-The most well received ones being narrative text/point and click/visual novel narrative games like Coteries of New York or Heart of the Forest.

-Of the gameplay heavy games released thus far, Earthblood and Swansong, had mixed to negative reception.

-Not a single sign of an H5 video game anywhere, even though HtR is the second most noteworthy WoD gameline to have a sub-franchise attached to video games.

-Wraith of all things getting a VR game...aka a platform that not that many gamers have invested in.

-And that the most successful game thus far has been Bloodhunt...a battle royale game that's not really maximizing the potential of a WoD video game and is more of a trend chaser.

If the idea was to pull a Warhammer when it comes to licensed video games, PDX isn't doing the best job of it.

[Ragged Robin]

If the idea was to pull a Warhammer when it comes to licensed video games, PDX isn't doing the best job of it.

Its probably worth noting games workshop have two important differences. Firstly they're a lot more succesful than white wolf, secondly they trust their own fluff. As I've mentioned the setting is completly out there in terms of attitudes, my partner plays dark eldar which from she's what described and I've read make the Sabbat or Get look like the Avengers. Even the protagonist factors are despicable (although she mentioned that some of the fantasy game factions are nicer). But the company seems to trust its own lore in a way wod currently doesn't.

she's been playing a game were you play as the frankly insane engeneer/scientist faction with weird steam punk weapons. I can't imagine the current vision for wod producing that when they proactively obstruct play for a lot of historically playable groups in game.

[Heavy Arms]

Just to be clear, I'm just trying to make the most sense of the information at hand, not praising Paradox. I think I've typed more than enough negativity their way that I don't have to keep it up on every point.

[TwoDSix]

Warhammer's not had much success going mainstream either. It's done much better on the video game front than WoD has (two well regarded RTSes, a couple of decent shooters, and the current crop of varying quality and style), but the film was dreadful and their attempts at launching a streaming service failed hilariously. For all we know this new Amazon Warhammer series could go the way of Kindred: the Embraced very easily. It probably doesn't help that GW has been sidelining and killing off the humans to put more focus on the demigods (which'll really bite them in the arse of they don't rework the 'no female space marines' thing).

I suspect there might be a plan to wait for the fourth D&D movie to come out and see how well it does. At that point I suspect Paradox will either start working on M5 and push for a VtM film or start looking for a buyer for the IP (possibly separating WoD and CofD, if OPP can put up a decent sum for the latter).

I'm also not going to be shocked if it turns out that Renegade's getting the licences because their draft was between what JA has talked about and the more conservative take an OPP WIV would have been. I'm guessing that draft might also be being used to fill out anything missing from JA's book, with another few editing passes to smooth over the inevitable inconsistencies. Possibly also a little bit of walking back any changes that significantly conflict with Earthblood and Heart of the Forest (which I still need to finish). I'm guessing we're going to see at best a late 2023 release as the book gets continuously tweaked into something more than a rough draft with likely holes.

[Asmodai]

Renegade gets the work because:

1. They will drop something within a deadline and won't take years to make a book, they're less concerned about product quality and more about delivering whatever it may be, as someone who has participated in their kickstarters and seen their products this is pretty obvious. They look good, they deliver mostly on time and they don't really care how well tuned or edited things are.
2. They actually have a multi-level production scale where they are printing books and board games and delivering them both to major distribution channels and direct channel

As much as I love OP, due to their scale and model, they take about 3 years to get a book out and are unable to deal with traditional distribution.

[AnubisXy]

-Of the gameplay heavy games released thus far, Earthblood and Swansong, had mixed to negative reception.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/10g1f0x/which_game_do_you_regret_paying_full_price_for/

My friend sent me a link to this reddit thread from about a week ago, which was asking people which video game they regret paying full price for. The most "liked" response, was Earthblood. The game was so bad it really pissed a ton of people off (over 3000 people apparently), and I think did some real damage to the brand. Hopefully most of the people who bought it were people who actually liked WtA because if someone didn't know much about the game, I doubt they'd be interested in the franchise after playing that game.

[Asmodai]

I've met like, one guy IRL interested in metaplot. Unless someone comes along and slaps you in the face with something absurdly obtrusive and asinine like "The Ganrel have left the Camarilla" or "The prime chantry blew up and Tremere have seperated" or "The Camarilla have decided to give up on their monopoly and embrace everything they sought to destroy because a worldwide network of hunters they failed to detect and can't really deal with hit a bunch of places at once" or whatever then people just don't care. Related: I've never played a DnD game in any of the main established settings, everyone's all too happy to use whatever they've got in their heads.

Metaplot is great for nerds talking to nerds, but...

I think we really need to unpack this on two (actually three, but I'm getting ahead of myself) levels.

First of all, people talking about metaplot are mixing up things. WoD had a metaplot and a sprawling number of books detailing everything ever. However, the metaplot was NOT the actual selling point of the WoD, it was the deep lore. Just like the deep lore of GW gets people intrigued and invested, the deep lore of the setting(s) gets people. They want to know about the factions and their histories and the weird quirks, bizarre rites and ghoulish antagonists and what they did through history and how many different variants of thing. This shit sells. That's why Splatbooks were more popular than other sourcebooks, and that's why everyone was copying that approach back in the 90s. This deep lore has some warts on it, and should be reinterpreted through time, but it's still viable, intriguing and incredibly impressive. The problem with this lore is that there is so much of it that it can be intimidating, so it needs to have a solid starting point which is an entry level that allows people to jump off from that into other things. In my opinion VtM Revised did this well, it's core gave you enough of a bite into the lore to hook you. V20 crammed too much stuff in for the new person. V5 did not as its core was a response to Vampire as it was before, not an entry level product meant for new people.

That leads into the metaplot. Metaplot has always been controversial because there was this line throughout many books that some people felt was shackling them and forcing them to play in certain way or change what their core assumptions were on the setting. This would have easily been remedied by focusing more on the "these things are optional" sentiment but it was contrary to the whole spiel of WoD sales - "this next book will have incredible new revelations and we want you in on it so we can keep making books". Still, the metaplot was there and it changed things from edition to edition, and book to book.

However, metaplot as such was mostly the burden of Vampire. Vampire is the poster child of WoD and most people talking about WoD are actually talking about Vampire. Vampire was the game with the highest metaplot quotient and defined by the changes in the setting that came from the books. The only two other lines that were majorly impacted by this were Mage (in Revised) and Wraith (1->2 and Ends). The rest of the gamelines paid lip service to what they had to and went on their merry way developing their settings and lore and not really burdening themselves with the metaplot. This means when people speak about the burdensome metaplot they're either talking about the final years of Vampire or the whole Revised Mage Buggery. All of those things are fixable with good writing and insisting that they are optional. Keith Baker has done wonders with Eberron and it's one of the most popular settings thanks to his clever approach where metaplot can be presented, but the game focuses on building up the lore.


And of course, back to the topic at hand, we get back to Werewolf. I'm a huge advocate of Revised for many reasons, especially the better approach to other cultures, history and inclusivity (there was more work to be done, but the trend was good). They cleared up a lot of things and many things people are now meming about the horrors of Werewolf were RESOLVED in Revised. For instance, I have no bloody idea who thought it was a good idea to reintroduce the Swords of Heimdall or downplay the Revised characterisation of Get in W20, but that person was incredibly shortsighted.

So what happens in the metaplot for Revised Werewolf? The world actually gets more detailed, the Garou and the Fera get off their butts and a whole bevy of new plotlines is opened but INTENTIONALLY left vague to interpret. This is one really cool element that I always believed was Skemp's doing, but cannot be sure:

• Albrecht is the king of the Garou Nation as a relic from what happened in 2E, but suddenly he's not really important unless you really want him to be, it's played up how he's one man with one pack, and that pack has other things to do so he's not meddling in your game
• The Garou of Europe are banding together under the coordination of Margrave Konietzko, it seems to be most of them, however it's vague enough that it doesn't have to impact your game, but it can if you want it to, bringing either conflict or unity or both to your game
• The Ahadi is created opening a whole new way to play Werewolf, one that is all about hope and making amends.The events leading it to it are left loose enough to integrate the PC's into the origin - or not. It's also a very messed up situation, one that will probably explode horribly unless heroes get involved and things get smoothed out
• Golgol Fangs First goes to the Fera of South America, swallowing his pride and looking for alliances, opening another way for the breadth of Werewolf to be played, the events are left loose enough to involve the PC's into fixing this, to leave out holdouts with grudges or to have another interesting place to play interfera games
• The Shadow Lords go and start fixing bat and making amends for their many sins, in general, all the tribes are out owning up to their bullshit and doing better
• Baba Yaga gets killed offscreen in another game after being built up as a big bad... the less said about this the better. *

So. Metaplot can be good. Metaplot can ENABLE play instead of restricting it. It just needs a good hand and a solid vision of what the game should be. However, the selling point of the games was never the metaplot, it was the lore, and W5 is just taking out the lore behind the shed.

* This of course is something that I have a personal peeve with, why did she even have to be a Vampire, I prefer to have her as a powerful spirit powered by the collective myths or a type of "wizatrd" without any Mage connotations. It makes her more interesting and more playable as an antagonist than just another "oh and this mythical figure, they're a vampire too"

[MyWifeIsScary]

For VTM, you don't need "deep" lore at all. It's nice to have, very nice, but sticking to the OG 7 it's very easy to set up a city of vampires without needing to bring up or research the illustrious history of the clans and not do too much wrong. Aside from the Tremere and to a lesser extent the Ventrue, most players need to know nothing beyond "you're a vampire, pretend not to be a vampire, , watch out for other vampires ,be home before dawn " and I'd argue if you're wanting to play wizard or nobility/business types actually needing to look deeper into things is probably what you wanted to do anyway. Vampire is very accessible, though I do wish they stressed the political makeup of the city is more "Prince, Sherrif, oh maybe pay attention to these guys they can really move and shake if they want to" Rather than the whole checklist of "prince, senshal, sherriff, hounds of the sherriff, scourge, primogens 1 through seven, Head harpy, other harpies, keeper of elysium..."

Werewolf and Mage on the otherhand... the barrier for entry is significantly higher.

[Ana Mizuki]

For VTM, you don't need "deep" lore at all. It's nice to have, very nice, but sticking to the OG 7 it's very easy to set up a city of vampires without needing to bring up or research the illustrious history of the clans and not do too much wrong. Aside from the Tremere and to a lesser extent the Ventrue, most players need to know nothing beyond "you're a vampire, pretend not to be a vampire, , watch out for other vampires ,be home before dawn " and I'd argue if you're wanting to play wizard or nobility/business types actually needing to look deeper into things is probably what you wanted to do anyway. Vampire is very accessible, though I do wish they stressed the political makeup of the city is more "Prince, Sherrif, oh maybe pay attention to these guys they can really move and shake if they want to" Rather than the whole checklist of "prince, senshal, sherriff, hounds of the sherriff, scourge, primogens 1 through seven, Head harpy, other harpies, keeper of elysium..."

Werewolf and Mage on the otherhand... the barrier for entry is significantly higher.

You got that right.

However, it is important to note that it is the lore of WtA that has kept it as popular as it has been. People like the garou nation, the tribes and all the dynamics within that.

But it is by far not the easiest game to get into. Garou don't even match your typical cursed werewolf trope at all, so players wanting that are miffed.

So it is a double-edged sword, there is a lot of setting to base stuff off, but if your players don't want to play fantasy heroes killing wyrm-spawn after reading 10+ lorebooks, you are out of luck.

[Koronus]

Eh I disagree with Mag needing a high lore entry barrier. Because in Mage you can do oprphan play similar to caitiff in VtM. You just need to start way lower from power with the maximum being a one Sphere 2 and than you are a group of friends or randoms who suddenly awake because a marauder stirred them in their sleep.