W5 QA

[Ragged Robin]

Warhammer's not had much success going mainstream either. It's done much better on the video game front than WoD has (two well regarded RTSes, a couple of decent shooters, and the current crop of varying quality and style), but the film was dreadful and their attempts at launching a streaming service failed hilariously. For all we know this new Amazon Warhammer series could go the way of Kindred: the Embraced very easily. It probably doesn't help that GW has been sidelining and killing off the humans to put more focus on the demigods (which'll really bite them in the arse of they don't rework the 'no female space marines' thing).

I suspect there might be a plan to wait for the fourth D&D movie to come out and see how well it does. At that point I suspect Paradox will either start working on M5 and push for a VtM film or start looking for a buyer for the IP (possibly separating WoD and CofD, if OPP can put up a decent sum for the latter).

I'm also not going to be shocked if it turns out that Renegade's getting the licences because their draft was between what JA has talked about and the more conservative take an OPP WIV would have been. I'm guessing that draft might also be being used to fill out anything missing from JA's book, with another few editing passes to smooth over the inevitable inconsistencies. Possibly also a little bit of walking back any changes that significantly conflict with Earthblood and Heart of the Forest (which I still need to finish). I'm guessing we're going to see at best a late 2023 release as the book gets continuously tweaked into something more than a rough draft with likely holes.

Its done okay, you've got a pretty solid stream of video games and books. It's struggles in movies kind of tacitly endorse the difficulties I feel wod would suffer if they try and break into big leagues. I'm unconvinced space marines would be relatable full stop to Joe public even if your posy human super soldier doesn't have a willy but i am certain that sterilising your own setting to try and seduce Joe public is an error.

[Heavy Arms]

On the deep lore thing:

It's not a matter of "need" it's a matter of what people want. There are lots of fans that want deep lore. That was a big driver of the original WoD brand. While the exact number vary from which old WW employee you ask, a small but significant number of people bought the original WoD books to read them not to play them; and WW catered to that audience because it was big enough to do along side the main audience of people actually playing the games without detracting from making stuff that was playable. A big driver of both deep lore and metaplot was that adding more of them increased sales more than they turned anyone off the books.

It's basically the power ballad effect that happened to 80s pop-metal bands: add a power ballad to your album, see a major bump in album sales, ticket sales, and radio play. While the quality of power ballads varied wildly mostly based on how much bands were doing them because they wanted to vs. because record execs wanted one for the money, lots of mediocre or in hindsight not great power ballads still meant way more sales than bands that stuck to their main genre music only. Of course lot of genre purists hated this (even to the point of rather ridiculous mental gymnastics to decry power ballads completely while justifying liking the ones they liked)... you don't by an album by a band called Extreme titled Pornograffiti and expect a slow acoustic ballad with well executed vocal harmonies mixed in with the rest of the music. But for the most part the metal heads got albums full of what they wanted with one song they could at least play to get their parents off their backs for listening to the wrong kind of music, and more casual fans would buy albums just for those tracks.

Deep lore and metaplot get conflated - esp. with the WoD - largely because they were both more focused on engaging with a secondary audience that would bump up 10%-20% of sales by having stuff that was fun to read even if it really didn't end up that useful as gaming material. They're both equally subject to quality slippage when you're on a supplement treadmill and need to toss in some of each for the reader-customers while finishing up all the gaming-customer material too.

[Ragged Robin]

I'm undecided on deep lore but I strongly argue that they need distinct lore. a urban fantasy/ horror is going to struggle to be noticed and to do that it needs to have its own unique context. WoD groups like the red talons, order of hermes or toreador flavour the setting and concepts like the garou nation integrate them into a larger tapestry so I'd be very wary of anything which undermines that flavour if you want to stand out from the crowd.

[Asmodai]

For VTM, you don't need "deep" lore at all. It's nice to have, very nice, but sticking to the OG 7 it's very easy to set up a city of vampires without needing to bring up or research the illustrious history of the clans and not do too much wrong. Aside from the Tremere and to a lesser extent the Ventrue, most players need to know nothing beyond "you're a vampire, pretend not to be a vampire, , watch out for other vampires ,be home before dawn " and I'd argue if you're wanting to play wizard or nobility/business types actually needing to look deeper into things is probably what you wanted to do anyway. Vampire is very accessible, though I do wish they stressed the political makeup of the city is more "Prince, Sherrif, oh maybe pay attention to these guys they can really move and shake if they want to" Rather than the whole checklist of "prince, senshal, sherriff, hounds of the sherriff, scourge, primogens 1 through seven, Head harpy, other harpies, keeper of elysium..."

That seems like quite the crock.You don't play VtM becase it's the best at being the "straightforward vampire drama simulator" because mechanically it's not that good at that and burdened with a ton of stuff superfluous to that experience. I mean you have quite a few alternatives that do that way better than VtM ever did. Heck, if we go by that logic, the V5 core, it's better at a whole lot of things than most of its predecessors, its biggest faults stemming its relationship with the old Lore, and a criminal case of layout and editing.

[TwoDSix]

I'm undecided on deep lore but I strongly argue that they need distinct lore. a urban fantasy/ horror is going to struggle to be noticed and to do that it needs to have its own unique context. WoD groups like the red talons, order of hermes or toreador flavour the setting and concepts like the garou nation integrate them into a larger tapestry so I'd be very wary of anything which undermines that flavour if you want to stand out from the crowd.

Which might be another reason Vigil 22e did better than H5. H5 has a handful of kind of cool monsters to fight, and a bunch of orgs you're not allowed to join. Vigil 2e has a wide range of monsters for any situation, with a heavy focus on the popular and engaging Slashers, and then pretty much opens the book with over a dozen organisations, some of them with hints of deeper lore, and says 'go on, you know you want to be a pawn of the Cheiron Group'. H5 has it's Creeds, but they don't have lore to get invested in, and they're pretty generic.


Like the Malleus Maleficarum is the Inquisition, and so of course they... mostly leave witches and demons alone? It drives you to know why. It's a pretty simple explanation, but then you can dig deeper.

Of course you can always go the other way with the Unknown Armies method. You're mad as a hatter, only half as competent, and determined to change the world. But your madness is interesting (it's not just one scale, it might give you access to magic, and in 3e it gives pretty hefty consequences). Unknown Armies doesn't half particularly strong lore, some of the big players are downright simplistic in their goals and backstory, but it's as evocative as you can get and it drives towards a central point: that the universe is broken, and there's something you want.

I think that's why people liked the oWoD. Not the deep lore or metaplot, but the strong thematics that existed before that lore. WtA was, at a reductive level, ecoterrorists being the spirit of corruption, and that's a pretty strong image. Now it's about ecoterrorists campaigning and fighting things that might be influenced by the spirit of corruption? I don't know, it sounds like a weaker image.people make fun of WtF1e being about playing spirit cops, but it's still a pretty strong image, and it's by far not the worst for people to have.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Its done okay, you've got a pretty solid stream of video games and books. It's struggles in movies kind of tacitly endorse the difficulties I feel wod would suffer if they try and break into big leagues. I'm unconvinced space marines would be relatable full stop to Joe public even if your posy human super soldier doesn't have a willy but i am certain that sterilising your own setting to try and seduce Joe public is an error.

The first big 40k product 1000% needs to focus on the Imperial Guard in a darkly comedic horror-war. Shakespearean tragedies featuring freakishly ill-proportioned warrior monks really only aught to come into play when we're comfortable enough with how silly 40k is.

That seems like quite the crock.You don't play VtM becase it's the best at being the "straightforward vampire drama simulator" because mechanically it's not that good at that and burdened with a ton of stuff superfluous to that experience. I mean you have quite a few alternatives that do that way better than VtM ever did. Heck, if we go by that logic, the V5 core, it's better at a whole lot of things than most of its predecessors, its biggest faults stemming its relationship with the old Lore, and a criminal case of layout and editing.

V5 is worse for a drama simulator: Hunger is a stupid system that utterly undermines the political aspect of the game; Vital disciplines like Dominate and Obfuscate got gutted, Your supposed Attribute+Skill pool poorly represents what you can do IE you need to have like six dice and be an expert to succeed routinely on normal things. Combat is less capable of being simulationist and more geared towards trench coats and katanas...


Yeah, OG VTM has slow combat and the progression system really means you can get a lot more than others from character creation if you plan things a bit, and celerity is broke, but these are easy fixes.

[11twiggins]

Honestly I feel like the distinctive subsplats of the WoD - and let's focus on WTA b/c we're here - are part of what sells it to new players. When I was first being told about VTM it wasn't the Disciplines or Sects that came first, it was the Clans! It wasn't the origin myth, it was being told about the DIFFERENT KINDS OF VAMPIRES! And I feel like a good marketing strategy for a new edition of Werewolf would literally just play off that. Geeky nerdy people who love games and tabletops love being told about unique groups with cool powers.

Give me a tweet with some cool art of a really chill looking mega-monster Garou relaxing in the sun with a butterfly on his claw. Fit a really snappy and interesting 'pitch' of the Children of Gaia into that tweet. Give me a plucky street kid (recognizably a Bone Gnawer to fans) cutting a sport's cars brake lines. Homeless Werewolves - what a concept! A Prince Arthur type pulling a klaive from a stone, Silver Fangs. Follow-up tweets teasing some of the unique abilities these tribes have, how their stances within the Nation tie into the big 'headline' metaplot change you're pushing.

Say, for instance, that the headline for the new edition is that it is 100% guaranteed the Apocalypse is going to begin soon. That's a great context to have some Tribes doubling down on their 'thing' and others rethinking. Children of Gaia questioning whether a non-violent resolution to the world's problems is still even feasible, Bone Gnawers rising up en masse from the sewers and slums to figuratively (?) eat the rich, Silver Fangs returning to tradition and re-examining why the Garou aren't unified (under them, of course!).

Instead it feels like W5's messaging is stuck in the weeds. There's so much cool stuff to talk about, and instead we get stuff like 'no more laws about who you can't fuck' and 'we removed the """BREEDING ELEMENTS""" from the game'.

[11twiggins]

Regarding the suitability of Space Marines for winning over the public in a film/show, they're weird within the setting. Space Marines are freaks, angels, most people run in terror upon seeing one, or cower, or kneel. They're HIS ANGELS! So selling the public on them is similar to selling GoT viewers on Dragons existing. Hype them up, mention them, and finally show them at the end of the first series or film. Make their size and fluidity uncanny, scary even. Make them detached and superior and strange. Make them really cool when they're fighting and really ominous when they're not.

And then once people are familiar with the idea of the Space Marine, give them a Space Wolf to get more attached to, since they really water down the chem-geld on their planet. Either that or whoever's job it is to ensure Space Wolves aren't emotional/party-lovers/horny is on a permanent vacation.

[TwoDSix]

Honestly the first 40k series should focus on the Inquisition, although at a relatively low level where they're not interacting with Space Marines on an even footing (say a cell led by an Interrogater). It lets you sell the diverse aspects of the setting without necessarily having to shoot all of them.

As to Space Marines', the sheer amount of augmentation and brainwashing they go through is insane. It's the primary reason why 'no female Marines' is so weird, at that point biological sex makes basically no difference to the final result, and they think so differently from normal humans that their concept of gender almost certainly doesn't line up with ours (if they even have one). My friend put it succinctly as ‘Space Marines' gender is Space Marine’. The same goes for the Primarchs, we call them male because they had penises, which tbh is a bit presumptuous and cis-normative, but is that even a relevant word?

Anyway, I really don't want to drag this thread into the depths of 40k geekery when it's supposed to be about Werewolf.

[Ragged Robin]

Regarding the suitability of Space Marines for winning over the public in a film/show, they're weird within the setting. Space Marines are freaks, angels, most people run in terror upon seeing one, or cower, or kneel. They're HIS ANGELS! So selling the public on them is similar to selling GoT viewers on Dragons existing. Hype them up, mention them, and finally show them at the end of the first series or film. Make their size and fluidity uncanny, scary even. Make them detached and superior and strange. Make them really cool when they're fighting and really ominous when they're not.

And then once people are familiar with the idea of the Space Marine, give them a Space Wolf to get more attached to, since they really water down the chem-geld on their planet. Either that or whoever's job it is to ensure Space Wolves aren't emotional/party-lovers/horny is on a permanent vacation.

I don't think you have to dilute or modify anything, just write well and have faith in your audience. Space marines are extreme but ultimately within the range of human experiance.

A flawed warrior order fighting a war which may already be lost, now in the darkest hour in a failling empire they are needed more than ever. That's a pretty compelling concept and one the previous ed werewolves cover well.

[Knightingale]

I don't think Space Marine is such an alien concept that you need people to be "eased into it". The first Dawn Of War game starts with Space Marines and there was this fan-animation on YT called Astartes that got millions of views and even people not familiar with WH40k did react-videos to it. You don't need to get superdeep into the lore of Space Marines for them to be interesting. Them being these huge, superhuman warrior-monks that talk like overly serious medieval knights, the talk of the Emperor, calling each other brother, them travelling through space on these cathedral-like spaceships... What really helps is that because of the expansive lore and worldbuilding there's a lot of personality and character to what Space Marines are. And that's the hook that makes them interesting. All the detail immediately conveys that they're part of a world and that there's depth to what exactly Space Marines are and what they're about.

That's why lore and worldbuilding can be an asset. The more you get away from that, the more things are getting generic. Good worldbuilding/lore invites people to be curious and for there actually be something to dig into in terms of background-information. Making W5 more generic in its presentation may make it easier to convey its themes to newcomers but it's also leading to having a rather flat presentation of what the game has to offer. "Furry Captain Planet", "Spirit Cop"... such reductive portrayals gain much more purchase when there's so little worldbuilding and lore that gives the game a more distinct personality. Additionally, like with H5, the more generic the game is the easier it is to make an argument for not playing this particular game. The range of what constitutes a game that does something similar (and maybe even better) becomes much bigger. Making an argument that if you want to play a hunter-game, don't play H5 but instead x is a much easier sell because of how generic H5 is. Also, if interesting lore/worldbuilding isn't what the game wants to offer then it better have a hell of a good system that makes up for it. And the simulationist WOD5E-version of the Storyteller-system certainly isn't that, I'd say.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Games are one thing, a 90+ minute movie or long running television show is another. Just putting those puffy steroid faces on to giant frames and having them deliver straight faced imperial jargon is just way too much for almost everyone who isn't already a fan. Inquisitors look "Normal" by 40k standards but are far worse when it comes to the jargon because they'd naturally be in a more plot heavy/action light setting. Also I don't imagine "in the... there's only war" shtick really matching an investigative team. Guard, on the otherhand? Very relatable.

t's the primary reason why 'no female Marines' is so weird, at that point biological sex makes basically no difference to the final result, and they think so differently from normal humans that their concept of gender almost certainly doesn't line up with ours (if they even have one). My friend put it succinctly as ‘Space Marines' gender is Space Marine’. The same goes for the Primarchs, we call them male because they had penises, which tbh is a bit presumptuous and cis-normative, but is that even a relevant word?

Fascist theocratic space empire worshipping The God Emperor of Mankind, who demands a sacrifice of 1000 psychic souls per day, after almost 20 thousand years of technological stagnation. I feel like the joke would be derailed more than a little if they suddenly got progressive. And for the people who do take it more seriously... they're warrior monks, the nuns are right over there... among other things.

Werewolf has actually been suffering from this problem. The WoD is a satire. It's a dark and twisted world where most everything's a little worse so we can contrast them and think critically about them and also cherish the few good things we have. The Vampire clans are caricatures, the werewolves are caricatures, the mages are caricatures, or at least they started that way. IDK about you but when there's a section in W20 BOOK OF THE WYRM detailing The pharmaceutical company Magadon and their cartoonish villainy in various research departments and there's this one little bit talking about Magadon's uncharacteristically positive work in woman's medicine like... What are they trying to say here? Is women's medicine bad? Why is Women's medicine being worked on between mutant abominations and spiritual diseases? How am I supposed to interpret this? Is the Author "pro-life" or something or is did someone take a tone deaf opportunity to spread the good word? Weirdly out of place progressive things in a setting where people's vices and folly are held up to be examined just fills me with doubt and confusion.

[Koronus]

What are they trying to say here? Is women's medicine bad? Why is Women's medicine being worked on between mutant abominations and spiritual diseases? How am I supposed to interpret this? Is the Author "pro-life" or something or is did someone take a tone deaf opportunity to spread the good word?

That is part of the caricature. In several companies of Pentex there is said too, that they do not only do bad work and this is part of this line too. That is the problem with Pentex adding another layer of their evilness. It is pointing out that you can not just getting rid of them and everything is getting better. Pentex fills in a niche by doing some good things too and so making it while not irreplaceable, at least not just removeable. Would they be merely a parasite you could just get rid of them and everything would become better. But as they made many people depend on them you would be the villain instead by just destroying them.
If you let them be the wyrm get stronger by poisening. If you get rid of them the wyrm get stronger through suffering from malnourishment and sicknesses going around.
So before you can get rid of Pentex you would need to develop an alternative. But this makes you attackable cause you can not just develop something over night.
This gives Pentex a long time to prepare and so makes the already hard task truely a task worthy of Hercules.

Here is an example let's imagine someone have something like Stephen Hawking. Without Pentex medicine she would be in this state for nearly 80 years. With Pentex medicine she could so live mostly normal instead but only to like 40-50 years. So which is now the less evil option? This is what the auther is trying to say.

[Ragged Robin]

Mrs Robin commented that the process around making space marines is built around male puberty and fits with the emperors "it'll do" outlook. She also commented female space marines already exist as a seperate group with different but simular abilities so the whole thing is asinine and more linked with nerd culture rather than intrinsic merits of the idea.

[TwoDSix]

Possibly because having your villains be not entirely evil can help engage with the question, the same reason why people insist on also looking at the positive aspects of the Chaos Gods (which admittedly dig get more focus in the original WFB). That's not to say Pentex should be a deeply flawed but well intentioned organisation, but taking them down should have at least some element of sacrifice. If I wanted realistic antagonistic organisations I'd run Unknown Armies (who's equivalent of the Technocracy is one man's dream to control magick, but as he's a billionaire he can make a good attempt at doing it), but I also don't want them to be 100% cartoon villainy.

At the same time though we also have people arguing against attempts to update the satire. The new situation in VtM where the Camarilla are ignorant techphobic feudalists and the Anarchs are angry youngsters who are trying to literally eat the rich is clearly meant to be about the current radicalisation of politics. But somewhere along the way the satire got lost, at least in the minds of most people, just as happened to Paranoia (and apparently to 40k in the US, I've heard a lot of people there think the modern lore is serious).

i have no issue with the Swords of Heimdall. Yes they're literal Nazis, but like with the Imperium [I]that's the joke[I]. I don't even care if they've been wiped out or not, I can get a laugh out of them showing the dark side of the Get either way.

Now where's my whiskey-swigging sexually lose Celtic werewolf!?

ETA: urgh, the SoB are NOT female Space Marines, they're a different archetype.