W5 QA

[Koronus]

Mrs Robin commented that the process around making space marines is built around male puberty and fits with the emperors "it'll do" outlook. She also commented female space marines already exist as a seperate group with different but simular abilities so the whole thing is asinine and more linked with nerd culture rather than intrinsic merits of the idea.

I know in the origin lore there where female space marines too but they sold abyssmal so instead they retconed lore to "Space Marines are only male cause the emperror created them after his own genetic and as he whas genetical male so his primarchs are male too".
The femaly space marines where instead changed to the Sororitas, fanatical warrior nuns who make up the lack of physical power by extreme faith that is so strong that it even become physically manifested.

[Knightingale]

Games are one thing, a 90+ minute movie or long running television show is another. Just putting those puffy steroid faces on to giant frames and having them deliver straight faced imperial jargon is just way too much for almost everyone who isn't already a fan. Inquisitors look "Normal" by 40k standards but are far worse when it comes to the jargon because they'd naturally be in a more plot heavy/action light setting. Also I don't imagine "in the... there's only war" shtick really matching an investigative team. Guard, on the otherhand? Very relatable.

So far we only have books, videogames and animated shows where Space Marines and other WH40k stuff gets depicted. Also, I think writing plays a huge part here as well. The Eisenhorn-series (which is about an Inquisitor) is one of the bestselling novel-series from GW's ficition-publisher Black Library. And one reason why is that it's one of the best entry-points to WH40k. You don't need any prior knowledge before reading those novels. And yeah, unlike a lot of other WH40k the focus isn't military-sci-fi stuff and instead it's more of a sci-fi-detective novel with some street-level action.

Fascist theocratic space empire worshipping The God Emperor of Mankind, who demands a sacrifice of 1000 psychic souls per day, after almost 20 thousand years of technological stagnation. I feel like the joke would be derailed more than a little if they suddenly got progressive. And for the people who do take it more seriously... they're warrior monks, the nuns are right over there... among other things.

WH40k has gotten away from that a long time ago. Take their Horus-Heresy-novel-series... that's like 60+ novels (a lot of them ending up on the New York Times bestseller list somewhere) exploring the 31st millenium as genuine genre-fiction. The storytelling hasn't been in "satire-mode" for a long time.

And progressive Space Marines... funny you should mention it because some writers are definitely writing these new Primaris Space Marines like that...

Werewolf has actually been suffering from this problem. The WoD is a satire. It's a dark and twisted world where most everything's a little worse so we can contrast them and think critically about them and also cherish the few good things we have. The Vampire clans are caricatures, the werewolves are caricatures, the mages are caricatures, or at least they started that way. IDK about you but when there's a section in W20 BOOK OF THE WYRM detailing The pharmaceutical company Magadon and their cartoonish villainy in various research departments and there's this one little bit talking about Magadon's uncharacteristically positive work in woman's medicine like... What are they trying to say here? Is women's medicine bad? Why is Women's medicine being worked on between mutant abominations and spiritual diseases? How am I supposed to interpret this? Is the Author "pro-life" or something or is did someone take a tone deaf opportunity to spread the good word? Weirdly out of place progressive things in a setting where people's vices and folly are held up to be examined just fills me with doubt and confusion.

But that's why Justin Achilli keeps talking about "The WOD isn't "our world but darker" anymore and instead just "our world.". Satire isn't part of W5's goals anymore either. It's already been said that all the previous Pentex-subsidiaries aren't a thing in W5 anymore.

[Knightingale]

Mrs Robin commented that the process around making space marines is built around male puberty and fits with the emperors "it'll do" outlook. She also commented female space marines already exist as a seperate group with different but simular abilities so the whole thing is asinine and more linked with nerd culture rather than intrinsic merits of the idea.

Yeah, the Adepta Sororitas are these female Battle-Sisters who are way more religious than Space Marines but are also wearing power armor. In recent years GW have given them a lot more attention and focus both in terms of models and fiction published by Black Library.

[Ragged Robin]

ETA: urgh, the SoB are NOT female Space Marines, they're a different archetype.

Its not my strong point but from what ive seen it's an elite power armoured unit with post human abilities. Even the models, lore and aesthetic is has a simular future fantasy vibe. They're so similar you're splitting hairs.

[TwoDSix]

Its not my strong point but from what ive seen it's an elite power armoured unit with post human abilities. Even the models, lore and aesthetic is has a simular future fantasy vibe. They're so similar you're splitting hairs.

The lack of enhancements and Acts of Faith are a pretty big deal. To use a D&Dism they're the Paladin to the Space Marines' Barbarian, it's a similar role and you probably want a Rogue before doubling up but they are distinct.

[Ragged Robin]

The lack of enhancements and Acts of Faith are a pretty big deal. To use a D&Dism they're the Paladin to the Space Marines' Barbarian, it's a similar role and you probably want a Rogue before doubling up but they are distinct.

Yes but that isn't what a space marine is or isn't outside of setting lore. The term space marine is just a general pop culture term, with ideas attached to it and of you're arguing in setting then your focusing on minutae. They could just as easily called the male orders star knights and the female order space marines and be exactly the same. All were really arguing is which specific terminology

[MyWifeIsScary]

SoB aren't on a tenth of the juice the space marines are on, but they've still got the power armour and heavy weapons and are in effect super soldiers. really the main difference is that SoB are defined largely by religious fervor while the SM are dogmatic but largely veer towards being secular.

It's not satire any more.

Tell me you don't understand satire without telling me you don't understand satire: 40k doesn't lean on farcical levels of crazy as much as it used to and it does provide serious rationalizations for
how the setting became so extreme but that doesn't change the fact that the Imperium of Man serves as a striking example of What Not to Do while focusing on caricatures of people, ideologies and political systems. A Commissar really doing his duty and being good at his perfectly necessary job, the good reason to fear Advanced technology, or the well written tragedy of the God Emperor's parenting does absolutely nothing to take away from that. I should also remind you that 40k is still a really darkly comedic setting even when they're trying to be serious. Satire doesn't have to be funny, but it does help.

Yeah Guilliman waking up is a rain on the parade. Might as well wake up the emperor, fix the imperium and fight a glorious crusade against the enemies of humanity who have also regained their prime. The Garou can save Gia and purify the wyrm while we're at it. The World of Darkness can't move away from Satire so long as the Ventrue and Toreador exist. Trying to move away from that is and will always be a mistake. The first two editions were the strongest.

[Knightingale]

Tell me you don't understand satire without telling me you don't understand satire: 40k doesn't lean on farcical levels of crazy as much as it used to and it does provide serious rationalizations for
how the setting became so extreme but that doesn't change the fact that the Imperium of Man serves as a striking example of What Not to Do while focusing on caricatures of people, ideologies and political systems. A Commissar really doing his duty and being good at his perfectly necessary job, the good reason to fear Advanced technology, or the well written tragedy of the God Emperor's parenting does absolutely nothing to take away from that. I should also remind you that 40k is still a really darkly comedic setting even when they're trying to be serious. Satire doesn't have to be funny, but it does help.

Yeah Guilliman waking up is a rain on the parade. Might as well wake up the emperor, fix the imperium and fight a glorious crusade against the enemies of humanity who have also regained their prime. The Garou can save Gia and purify the wyrm while we're at it. The World of Darkness can't move away from Satire so long as the Ventrue and Toreador exist. Trying to move away from that is and will always be a mistake. The first two editions were the strongest.

You're really missing the point of what I was saying...

I should also remind you that 40k is still a really darkly comedic setting even when they're trying to be serious.

Thank you for repeating what I've already said.

The World of Darkness can't move away from Satire so long as the Ventrue and Toreador exist.

So I take it this is some "Death of the author"-take where authorial intent gets completely ignored...?

[TwoDSix]

Yes but that isn't what a space marine is or isn't outside of setting lore. The term space marine is just a general pop culture term, with ideas attached to it and of you're arguing in setting then your focusing on minutae. They could just as easily called the male orders star knights and the female order space marines and be exactly the same. All were really arguing is which specific terminology

Space Marines in the 40k until verse refers to something specific, as does 'Imperial Guard' for that matter. If you want what in most settings would be called the Imperial Guard you want the Adeptus Custodes, and if you want what other settings would call space marines you want... you know I forget what the Imperial Navy calls it's boarding crews. But you're now intentionally missing my point so as not to engage with it, when somebody says '40k' and 'space marines' in the same sentence they are referring to a specific part of the setting, and not the general 'space soldier' trope. Oh sure, I could have said 'lack of female Astartes', but that would be unnecessarily confusing to people with passing knowledge as it's not the primary term used to refer to them.

For that note that's also way I use Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle. Astra Militarium (urgh) and Adeptus Sororitas are official names but they're slightly less clear.

It also matters that Space Marines are by far the most promoted faction, having something like four dedicated armies just for loyalists last time I played, whereas most other factions getting one (despite conservative estimates putting the Guard at five trillion troops from over a billion world's, and thus significantly more varied). It would be different if they were one faction amongst many, as most others aren't gender-limited and some even have the models to prove it, but they're HALF THE FACTIONS.

Not that I'm not picking up some sisters when I can see properly. Never said they're not cool, just that they're not Space Marines (if anything they're specialised Stormtroopers).

[Ragged Robin]

Space Marines in the 40k until verse refers to something specific, as does 'Imperial Guard' for that matter. If you want what in most settings would be called the Imperial Guard you want the Adeptus Custodes, and if you want what other settings would call space marines you want... you know I forget what the Imperial Navy calls it's boarding crews. But you're now intentionally missing my point so as not to engage with it, when somebody says '40k' and 'space marines' in the same sentence they are referring to a specific part of the setting, and not the general 'space soldier' trope. Oh sure, I could have said 'lack of female Astartes', but that would be unnecessarily confusing to people with passing knowledge as it's not the primary term used to refer to them.

For that note that's also way I use Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle. Astra Militarium (urgh) and Adeptus Sororitas are official names but they're slightly less clear.

It also matters that Space Marines are by far the most promoted faction, having something like four dedicated armies just for loyalists last time I played, whereas most other factions getting one (despite conservative estimates putting the Guard at five trillion troops from over a billion world's, and thus significantly more varied). It would be different if they were one faction amongst many, as most others aren't gender-limited and some even have the models to prove it, but they're HALF THE FACTIONS.

Not that I'm not picking up some sisters when I can see properly. Never said they're not cool, just that they're not Space Marines (if anything they're specialised Stormtroopers).

No I get that and don't contest it. My point is the distinction is too marginal for it to be a particularly compelling arguement. It'd be like arguing you want to be a bloke black fury because you want to play a warrior tribe with pagan folklore. The different fluff and crunch arnt going to stop me just telling you to play a say a get, fianna or wendigo instead.

I wasn't aware of that being half the factions seems a deeper distinct problem with the one which making more space marines types would aggravate.....so if anything girl space marines sounds like a net negative since anything which implicitly discourages more space marines and more model variation such as the sisters (?) would be a net good.

I don't know what a stormtroopers is in this context but would you support them being considered space marines?

[TwoDSix]

Male Black Furies are literally a thing. They're the minority of male Metis that weren't sent to the CoG, but they exist. There is a difference between vanishingly rare and nonexistent.

Also it's more like I say I want to play a male Black Fury, and you tell me it's fine because Ajaba are a thing. SoB straight up do not have the enhanced physique or extra organs of an Astartes, although I think it's not entirely clear if they get the Black Carapace, but do have unshakably faith and the ability to weaponise it. Hell, by some accounts the Death Corps of Krieg get more augmentation than the SoB (it's unclear exactly how Kriegers are modified, or even if they are, but it's probably genetic mods to increase how long they can serve in nuke blasted hellscapes).

[Ragged Robin]

Male Black Furies are literally a thing. They're the minority of male Metis that weren't sent to the CoG, but they exist. There is a difference between vanishingly rare and nonexistent.

Also it's more like I say I want to play a male Black Fury, and you tell me it's fine because Ajaba are a thing. SoB straight up do not have the enhanced physique or extra organs of an Astartes, although I think it's not entirely clear if they get the Black Carapace, but do have unshakably faith and the ability to weaponise it. Hell, by some accounts the Death Corps of Krieg get more augmentation than the SoB (it's unclear exactly how Kriegers are modified, or even if they are, but it's probably genetic mods to increase how long they can serve in nuke blasted hellscapes).

True, now back to my homid blockey bloke.

why would I tell you it's fine? It's a really bad concept and the rational i presented is terrible. Lets do another one- a rich urban bone gnawer, why would I not just say "play a glasswalker"

[Koronus]

I wish I could discuss with you at this point but my english skill test failed so I have no idea. I can only say what the terms of 40k would be in wta terms.
The space marines would be the garou. Super natural creaters with a non human mind solely for killing the enemy.
Cadians as in people from the fortress worlds of Cadia would be the Kinfolk. They have been trained from birth to accept the Space Marines and all the horrors but still are humans.
Kasrkin are basically veteran Cadians and so they would be Kinfolk that while not powerfull as garou they would been proven to be capable and worth to fight along their side for selected operations.
Shock Troopers meanwhile are the veterans of normal soldiers. So where Kinfolk warrior veteran would be normal arround garou as he has seen shit and know that he is not only pray, the normal elite soldiers would not run away screaming when seing a garou but still would not be able to keep his cool as he feels that this one is definataly nothing like he ever seen before.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Male Black Furies are literally a thing. They're the minority of male Metis that weren't sent to the CoG, but they exist. There is a difference between vanishingly rare and nonexistent.

Also it's more like I say I want to play a male Black Fury, and you tell me it's fine because Ajaba are a thing. SoB straight up do not have the enhanced physique or extra organs of an Astartes, although I think it's not entirely clear if they get the Black Carapace, but do have unshakably faith and the ability to weaponise it. Hell, by some accounts the Death Corps of Krieg get more augmentation than the SoB (it's unclear exactly how Kriegers are modified, or even if they are, but it's probably genetic mods to increase how long they can serve in nuke blasted hellscapes).

Crinos-born sons with a Fury mother actually never get sent out of the tribe, per Guardians of the Caerns. It's an obligation that they feel.

[Heavy Arms]

Can someone tag me when the 40K tangent is over?