W5 QA

[Ana Mizuki]

In terms of First Change ages, I agree they should be allowed later. I've had so many players in online games come around wanting their character to have had a life before garou stuff and changing stuff to fit the setting often looks clumsy. I don't mind characters starting early (since I play Lupus and Crinos Born most often) but I do feel a wider range will do more good than bad.

In terms of camps and fellowships, I do want them to be like Forsaken lodges. Since there is no central garou authority anymore, we should be free to do groups like the Swarm or any of the Pure lodges.

[Knightingale]

Well, to get back to W5 slightly... I am curious if groups like Camps and Fellowships are going to become more prominent in some fashion; much like Lodges in Forsaken. It seems a natural way to add back in some of the things making the new take on Tribes more generic. I'm not sure we need both, but it feels like something that could ameliorate a lot of the concerns people have had (except for the whole "making it even more like Forsaken" thing).

During the interview last October, it was talked about that Camps would be something that is covered by the Loresheets in the book. But there's nothing further specific said about it (I assume it's because that section hadn't been written yet at that point). And it was mentioned that supplements could cover specific regions where then those local varieties of Tribes and such are covered.

And during a recent Renegade-stream where they talked about the release-dates of the V5 and H5 supplements, they also mentioned that they're currently working on a supplement for W5. The WOD-team have given Renegade the manuscript of the book already after all.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I think most Garou should change between eleven and seventeen. Later than that should be rare, and if anything, it's something of an advantage. Changing when you're in your 20's is in many ways beneficial. Like. You should pay merit points for the privilege. You have a more rounded and well developed worldview. You're going to have more empathy for the common man, you have a massive advantage in passing yourself off as a normal citizen, you're likely more reserved when the Kool-aid comes out. It's a double edged sword because you might be more shock prone or suspicious or overthink something that really just needs to be torn in twain, but a double edged sword is still a sword. Asking for Merit points are quite reasonable.




I actually wouldn't usually consider milking the child soldier angle. It'd just be... normal. It's kind of a necessity even. The Garou are in a bad spot and the young aren't treated as sacrificial pawns even if they are child soldiers. Maybe I'm the worst person for this because I think, for all the supposed desperation of the garou and the apocalypse, there's a lot more they could really be doing without significant consequences (IE becoming really wyrmy or weaverish or finding themselves at the mercy of kin) they're quite a conceited race. I suppose a good chunk of that is in game design IE Garou PCs having XP concerns when really they should be far better trained, but some of it is very in-universe choice related.

[Asmodai]

I started playing werewolf a long time ago as a student. The first thing we tossed out and were liberal about was the need for the starting pc's to be teenagers. It opened more concepts and more engaging characters. Sure, the majority of the shifters shift in their teens, but there is sure as hell enough support for them popping late.

And since this makes the players happy and the cast more varied this is just a net win for the whole game - and the Nation itself!

[Ragged Robin]

I don't really mind older first change garou since it's more rather than less, maybe a trend towards younger rather than hard rule.

[MrNatas]

First change is always a soft rule rather then anything hard and absolute. To me, it should be in service to the character's story rather then "it has to be before X age" or "its between X-X." Even if it's listed somewhere I'm more inclined to disregard it then use it as law.

[Knightingale]

I think the value of saying that the First Change happens in your teenage-years is to set a baseline for what normally happens. It's hereditary so the character has Kinfolk and/or Garou-parents, is either human-, Crinos- or wolf-born, the First Change happens in their teenage-years, they've joined a Tribe and have an Auspice. That's the baseline and then there should be no problem with deviating from that in some ways of course. Like, the First Change happened later, the character's parents are human and the character has no connection to Garou-society before the First Change... things like that. Especially since Tribe, Breed and Auspice are the actual meaningful choices. And a baseline helps with addressing analysis paralysis as well as setting a standard for what is considered "normal" in Garou-society.

With the Garou-Kin-dynamic this has been replaced with pure chaos. It's now a purely individualistic experience. The circumstances of when and how everything happens as somebody becomes a Garou and joins a Tribe can vary wildly.

[Bluecho]

With the Garou-Kin-dynamic this has been replaced with pure chaos. It's now a purely individualistic experience. The circumstances of when and how everything happens as somebody becomes a Garou and joins a Tribe can vary wildly.

A good comparison to this would be like if in Vampire, every character was a Caitiff. Or if in Mage, every character was an Orphan, whose Focus had to be cobbled together by the players.

The option to have total freedom in Character Creation is nice. Having NO direction or default choice is kind of overwhelming. Some people, especially new players and new Storytellers, benefit from having standard templates. Groups with long-standing histories, lowercase-t traditions, and group identities. Something one can slot into easily, and justify involvement in plots. These, then, can be deviated from as desired.

A Vampire from a Clan has an idea not only who their character is likely to be, but how they relate to others within and outside their Clan. They have a direct line of descent, through their Sire, that informs their starting place in vampiric society. A Mage within the Traditions, Conventions, or Crafts has a culture into which they were initiated, that informs their Paradigm, Practice, and Instruments. It tells them who their friends, rivals, and enemies are, and what they're meant to do with their magick, if they have no better ideas.

I wouldn't mind Garou being able to arise spontaneously as an option. Like, they're a "wild seed" that got away from Garou society, or arose seemingly ex nihilo by fiat of Gaia or whatever. But having Tribes with established lineages, cultures, and histories makes it easy for folks to slot into the war against the Wyrm. Where you have elder Werewolves, and Kinfolk to interact with, if you want. A setting where Tribes have no history or familial ties seems like a squandering of its base utility. Makes the game harder than it needs to be for folks wanting to be included.

Plus, if we examine being a Werewolf through the lens of being an activist for change, it's kind of missing the point of activism to make the characters disconnected from a larger community and only focused on their own problems. The whole point of activism is to build and maintain community solidarity, so collective action can be done. Whether that action is disruption of intolerable systems, changing those systems from within, or disemboweling the rich and pissing on their corpses. You can't accomplish it alone.

(Honestly, the whole "the Apocalypse is here, you can't do anything to stop it, so just hunker down and survive" is a very neo-liberal centrist sentiment. "We are at the end of history, nothing can be improved. Don't even try. And DEFINITELY don't do it in a way that disrupts the status quo." The kind of attitude that lead us to our awful state of affairs in the first place. Replicating it in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, a game all about raging against the dying of the light, is kind of crap.)

[Ragged Robin]

Thinking on it, it's even weirder they didn't want kinfolk considering page after page of v5 was spent on thinbloods, to an excessive degree in fact.

[Knightingale]

The "No one knows how it works"-setup seems like it would also be an issue during the game. Let's say, you have a player who's going with the biting-model. His character was bitten by a wolf, later he experiences his First Change, then joins a Tribe and is now a Garou. Okay, so far so good. Now, this player-character encounters one of these Kin and wants to trigger their First Change. Obviously, the first thing he would try is to replicate what happened to him. So he bites the guy. And... now what? How is the ST supposed to determine if it triggers a First Change or not? If it does, what about the origin-stories the other players might have chosen? Or if it doesn't, are the player-characters supposed to experiment with the Kin until something works?

It's one thing to leave world-building like that blank and make it part of session zero to fill that space but it's entirely another thing to make it part of the setting.

[Ana Mizuki]

The "No one knows how it works"-setup seems like it would also be an issue during the game. Let's say, you have a player who's going with the biting-model. His character was bitten by a wolf, later he experiences his First Change, then joins a Tribe and is now a Garou. Okay, so far so good. Now, this player-character encounters one of these Kin and wants to trigger their First Change. Obviously, the first thing he would try is to replicate what happened to him. So he bites the guy. And... now what? How is the ST supposed to determine if it triggers a First Change or not? If it does, what about the origin-stories the other players might have chosen? Or if it doesn't, are the player-characters supposed to experiment with the Kin until something works?

It's one thing to leave world-building like that blank and make it part of session zero to fill that space but it's entirely another thing to make it part of the setting.

Given I've had many experiences over the years of players having wildly different takes on aspects of WtA written down, that sounds like a nightmare scenario.

I get the idea that it is after, a more DnD focused free-for-all scenario. But that really isn't what draws people to WoD or WtA ESPECIALLY.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Thinking on it, it's even weirder they didn't want kinfolk considering page after page of v5 was spent on thinbloods, to an excessive degree in fact.

Also, for all that W5 wanted to pillage Forsaken, it skipped over the opportunity to make everyone Kinfolk/Wolf-Blooded and restricted to one other non-Crinos form! It... might not be street enough, as-is...

[Nicolas Milioni]

I'm somewhat skeptical that the writers really want to keep things street level all the time.
I Personally disagree with some comments saying that fifth edition wod games force you to play a low level Anarch,or equivalent you can be a high level Anarch or a high ranking camarilla vampire,none of the 5th edition games stop your player-charscters to be the head of a high level organisation that influences the world.
Even in Hunter,where a huge chunk of the antagonists are "The Orgs" ,there's nothing stopping you from being a hunter who's leader of a corporation. One must keep in mind that the distinction between Hunter Cells and a Org is not that Hunter Cells aren't corporations and Orgs are, the distinction is that the Orgs have ulterior motives for hunting monsters.
It's true that the dev for werewolf made some comments on the resourcea merits,but he never said or even implied that you cannot have resources 4 or 5 on werewolf 5,only that it would make you suspicious to many of your peers.
The bottom line in Vampire,Hunter and , I'm willing to bet, Werewolf you can have globetrotting games with huge stakes with no homebrew needed.
So ar least on my experience ,the "fifth edition forces you to play a weak unpowered character in the name of keeping this on street level" is not true.

[Ragged Robin]

Its something they've explicitly stated as intent and several of the mechanics lean and lore into it. Its probably going to be the same as v5 sabbat games in that is possie to run but not playing to the games strengths.

[Ana Mizuki]

I'm somewhat skeptical that the writers really want to keep things street level all the time.
I Personally disagree with some comments saying that fifth edition wod games force you to play a low level Anarch,or equivalent you can be a high level Anarch or a high ranking camarilla vampire,none of the 5th edition games stop your player-charscters to be the head of a high level organisation that influences the world.
Even in Hunter,where a huge chunk of the antagonists are "The Orgs" ,there's nothing stopping you from being a hunter who's leader of a corporation. One must keep in mind that the distinction between Hunter Cells and a Org is not that Hunter Cells aren't corporations and Orgs are, the distinction is that the Orgs have ulterior motives for hunting monsters.
It's true that the dev for werewolf made some comments on the resourcea merits,but he never said or even implied that you cannot have resources 4 or 5 on werewolf 5,only that it would make you suspicious to many of your peers.
The bottom line in Vampire,Hunter and , I'm willing to bet, Werewolf you can have globetrotting games with huge stakes with no homebrew needed.
So ar least on my experience ,the "fifth edition forces you to play a weak unpowered character in the name of keeping this on street level" is not true.

Yes, you can have clout and wealth in the mundane human world. The problem arises when you want the same power in the supernatural world, then the mechanics halt your progress.

I am glad that the system no longer treats low supernatural status the same as low human status, but unless you play a game focused on the human world you will run into the glass ceiling of WoD5 status quickly.