W5 QA

[Manfr]

Ìts probably worth noting that absolute disdain for large scale institutions is a juvenile outlook and ultimatly self defeating. We're told the second inquisition doesn't care about humanity but they're currently far more of a net positive than reckoning hunters

Second Inquisition is drone-bombing people your less-than-certain intel has identified as enemies, and making extraordinary renditions and targeted assassinations of people who might have a dependency on blood forced on them by monsters. It's basically the Surveillance State hyped to eleven, and I'm fairly sure that, were you told that the likes of Sad and Project Twilight were "forces of good", fans would have destroyed Paradox.

The fact that Brazilian Special Forces were presented as sometimes collaborating with Candomble and Umbanda witches against vampires and other monsters, caused a very angry reaction from South American fans, due to their real-life baggage: just imagine if you were allowed to play someone believing in Bob Schnoblin's ideas, or running death camps for vampires as those presented in Chicago by Night.

[Manfr]

And if the morality of Hunters with Drive versus hunters in hunter-orgs is so important to the game, why does the game have no morality-mechanic whatsoever…?! H5 looked at V5 and removed Humanity, Conviction and made Chronicle-Tenets irrelevant as a mechanic. Touchstones fared barely better. In H5 having no Touchstones is a problem, having three and losing one is completely fine. If a PC has three Touchstones and one gets murdered, the game just shrugs its shoulders. Oh, and if a PC-Hunter decides to kill innocent Bystanders because that will help them in avoiding the attention of the supernatural antagonist, the game will just shrug again. For a game whose narrative is so set on talking about morality, in terms of mechanics it is setting up the complete opposite.

This, I agree: I don't really get why they chose such a setup.

[Ragged Robin]

Second Inquisition is drone-bombing people your less-than-certain intel has identified as enemies, and making extraordinary renditions and targeted assassinations of people who might have a dependency on blood forced on them by monsters. It's basically the Surveillance State hyped to eleven, and I'm fairly sure that, were you told that the likes of Sad and Project Twilight were "forces of good", fans would have destroyed Paradox.

The fact that Brazilian Special Forces were presented as sometimes collaborating with Candomble and Umbanda witches against vampires and other monsters, caused a very angry reaction from South American fans, due to their real-life baggage: just imagine if you were allowed to play someone believing in Bob Schnoblin's ideas, or running death camps for vampires as those presented in Chicago by Night.

The brazilian irl gaffe aside that's still a net positive by a considerable margin. The only way it could be worse is if after wiping out all vampires they somehow implemented something simular to vampires worldwide but worse. Its hard to understate how much of an utter blight vampires are in vtm.

[Ana Mizuki]

Well, the Beckoning and the Gehenna War are a narrative tool, not a real mechanic: you can use them to leverage power levels as you see fit. In all the sourcebooks we see some elders leaving, some others resisting with some shenanigans (usually nefarious, such as diablerie), or apparently unaffected.

As for the Gehenna War, well ... actually we're given a good base to run something set there. The Camarilla sourcebook has 12 pages directly detailing the dynamics of the Gehenna War, which also features in the Banu Haquim writeup and, in Chicago by Night, in the Lasombra writeup. The Camarilla sourcebook also has basic descriptions of various cities which are on the frontline of the conflict.

The Sabbat sourcebook actually enlarges the scenery of the Gehenna War and makes it more player-facing, as fronts of the War are as varied as the jungles of South America, the steppes of Russia and everywhere an Ancient might stir (this might also tie in nicely with the strange elder things arising in Chicago and its neighborhoods, like Nerissa and the entity in the "diying fields" scenario).

So, we are surely lacking a dedicated sourcebook, but besides what we are told in the V5 corebook, there's other material with which you can make your players "live" the Beckoning and the Gehenna War.

As for Hunter Orgs, well ... Hunters of the "HtR" book are framed as the Good Guys. Since VtM 1st edition, the Society of Leopold has always been casted as a bunch of religious fanatics using torture: of all the various Orgs presented in HtR and which tie in with existing lore, only the Arcanum and Orpheus were ever painted as neutral-to-goodish guys, the others were always a bunch of authoritarian and paranoid assholes. So, I wouldn't say their work makes for a net positive.

Even if it is a narrative tool, it still is indicating that having truly elder vampires around is rare. I am glad that the Gehenna War is getting more focus, but personally it still reeks of a place to put too powerful PCs to pasture.

With the hunters, even if Society of Leopold was treated as a bunch of paranoid arseholes, you could still play one.

My issue is that there are artificial limits placed on PCs and instead of giving the players the freedom to decide themselves who is in the right, options like hunter orgs and sabbat are entirely removed from the pool.

[Asmodai]

Second Inquisition is drone-bombing people your less-than-certain intel has identified as enemies, and making extraordinary renditions and targeted assassinations of people who might have a dependency on blood forced on them by monsters. It's basically the Surveillance State hyped to eleven, and I'm fairly sure that, were you told that the likes of Sad and Project Twilight were "forces of good", fans would have destroyed Paradox.

The fact that Brazilian Special Forces were presented as sometimes collaborating with Candomble and Umbanda witches against vampires and other monsters, caused a very angry reaction from South American fans, due to their real-life baggage: just imagine if you were allowed to play someone believing in Bob Schnoblin's ideas, or running death camps for vampires as those presented in Chicago by Night.

So what's that compared to what vampires do to humans? Manipulation, torture, addiction, enslavement and murder just to have more power is what the Kindred do on a daily basis.

The Second Inquisition is horrible, but at least they are not vampires.

As for the declared "Good Guy" status of the Hunters in H5, how does that mesh with the fact that their Drive may as well be about hunting them to dissect them, eat their blood or turn them into weapons? The separation is entirely artifical and there are no consequnces for being a horrible person and a Hunter, just like there is no incentive not to go all reservoir dogs on your victims.

[Manfr]

Asmodai Ana Mizuki with all due honesty, even though I might argue that there is a difference between a horrible individual and a horrible institutional mechanism, I'm perfectly aware it's a weak argument, in the context of 30 years of WoD.

I can rationalize why they chose to do so, however, and, at least for Sabbat, Orgs etc., I'd say the roots of this should be traced to when ParaWolf was called out as proNazi and proPaedophile for the Berlin playtest adventure and the presence of Brujah far-righters in the Corebook description of the Clan (just like the description of every other edition before this one).

There were accusation of racism even at the sheer possibility that an evil Org and indigenous people could cooperate against vampires, a single line in an Antagonist book: the "Second Inquisition is horrible, but at least they are not vampires" argument is not relevant for a probably small but very vocal segment of the fandom (which is of course opposed by another small and vocal segment decrying WoD5e as "woke").

I think ParaWolf reasoning when approaching later WoD5 products can be traced back to this. The current degree of polarization in American politics makes very problematic engaging PCs into institutional mechanisms of oppression.

Metaphor and immersion as catharsis are often not allowed the benefit of doubt, nowadays.

(This doesn't relate to the Beckoning, which has a very different genesis, as a way to shake up the status quo, which one might like or not)

[Knightingale]

There were accusation of racism even at the sheer possibility that an evil Org and indigenous people could cooperate against vampires, a single line in an Antagonist book: the "Second Inquisition is horrible, but at least they are not vampires" argument is not relevant for a probably small but very vocal segment of the fandom (which is of course opposed by another small and vocal segment decrying WoD5e as "woke").

I think the actual issue in that instance isn't that an evil org and the mentioned two minorities are working together, the issue is something else you mentioned: It's a single line. I mean, sure, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a well-known idiom but our world is often far more complex than that. Additionally, the framing of Second Inquisition portrays them as bad guys. In Brazil, there's the whole militarized police, Christian fundamentalist angle that colors their villainy. So, just on the face of it: the idea that persecuted minorities would work with them seems like a bit of a leap in terms of worldbuilding. And that goes both ways: If the SI in Brazil are such fundamentalist Christians, would they even accept the help of minorities they usually harass and persecute...?

But of course, theoretically, you can do that. It's just that you need to make a convincing case for that in terms of worldbuilding. How and why did this alliance happen? That's a story right there. It will be a hell of a challenge to create a narrative where an alliance like that makes sense. Naturally, a single line isn't nearly enough, though.

WOD-games, of course, run into the challenge of the fantastic being tightly interwoven with our present-day real world. In addition, as a writer you have to contend with the baggage of all the writing from the 90s and early 00s tackling the same challenge (and not always succeeding). And cartoonishly "stepping on a rake" when you're dealing with real-world-issues in a WOD-game has a very different weight in the era of social media than it did in the 90s.

And the W5-previews already had something like this: The Native American Tribes have been renamed and the connections to any ethnicity removed. So the new Tribe for the Younger Brother Tribe is now Galestalkers and their new Patron-Spirit is North Wind. But what is the suggested Ban for the Tribe? They have to "partake in a fresh kill every day". That of course has nothing to do with a name like "Galestalkers" or a spirit called "North Wind" and obviously references the old name and Native American mythology - which is what they were supposed to get away from. Instead of embracing things like Native American Tribes and striving to do a better job (via research and consultation with experts), the "solution" has been to completely get away from the association with Native American culture. And yet the Ban suggests they didn't do it fully... which is the perfect setup for another "stepping on a rake"-moment of writing a badly thought-out line like the one in Second Inquisition.

[Ragged Robin]

It occurs that the localised edge hunters rejection of larger orgs requires a meta knowledge of the setting. On the ground floor you don't really have any reason to reject them on first contact it also relies on reckoning hunters having the same outlooks as the settings writters, if hunters are individuals it's probable they'd have pretty diverse attitudes about larger groups even if they become aware of their darker aspects

[MyWifeIsScary]

Hunters Hunted II made me really want to play in hunter organizations, and I've got a whole bunch of ideas on Vampire characters who were former hunters.
Hunters Hunted II was really just a great book. A really high bar actually. Easily one of the best 20th anniversary books, It gave me genuinely new and interesting arguments for things (Big criminal organizations having hunter organizations to deal with vampires trying to usurp local operations? Makes a lot of sense, but I didn't think of that on my own)

Playing Jack and Jill trying to get their child back from the enthralment of a nefarious Toreador is a one-off adventure, not the start of a vampire hunting career. So with that in mind I'm really puzzled by H5. Might as well make Ronin the central characters of W5 with that attitude.

[Ana Mizuki]

It occurs that the localised edge hunters rejection of larger orgs requires a meta knowledge of the setting. On the ground floor you don't really have any reason to reject them on first contact it also relies on reckoning hunters having the same outlooks as the settings writters, if hunters are individuals it's probable they'd have pretty diverse attitudes about larger groups even if they become aware of their darker aspects

Yeah, exactly, the limits do not come from the story they come from the meta. As MyWifeIsScary noted, low-level stuff can be fun but eventually you want to try higher level stuff. Just to see how it'll go.

To bring this back to W5, what if the PCs want to bring the Nation back? What if they, despite seeing all the weaknesses of the Nation, still think it was better than nothing? The previews hint that you can't because the more renown you get the more jealous competitors you will have. But then it creates the question of why wouldn't the elders want to join in rebuilding the Nation?

[Knightingale]

To bring this back to W5, what if the PCs want to bring the Nation back? What if they, despite seeing all the weaknesses of the Nation, still think it was better than nothing? The previews hint that you can't because the more renown you get the more jealous competitors you will have. But then it creates the question of why wouldn't the elders want to join in rebuilding the Nation?

Bringing it back...? I think W5 goes more for the general notion that the Garou-Nation and the Litany are bad and you're supposed to be critical of those things if not outright reject them. And the PCs are of course the "good kind of Garou" unlike the Elders or the Get of Fenris Tribe.

From the Q&A:

We have noticed hints that the Garou Nation has been scaled back or has been shattered. To what extent does this state of the Nation go in this reimagining?
It's less "the Garou Nation" and more "what remains of the Garou Nation." It's something the elders invoke when they want you to do something, or an appeal idealistic Garou make to fix something.

Which playable Tribe has gone through the most changes?
It's less about "changes from" and more about remaining true to its own edition. No event happened in the diegetic world that made the W5 era occur, so it's better to think of it as a clean break that intends to remain consistent with itself rather than legacy editions.

How does the Litany look as of right now?
Eleven tenets, cutting the ones about who you're allowed to fuck and the attitude you're supposed to have about "disability." Much emphasis on the Litany being abused by outsized personalities, and the inherent hypocrisies and gray areas in it. Big takeaway is "If this Litany is so great, why are we living in the Apocalypse?"

So it will be more like "It's bad and it's broken. Deal with it.". How? Why? It's entirely possible that there will be no explanation. Take the "Reckoning" in H5. Yeah, it is a thing in that book and here how it's described:

WHAT IS THE RECKONING?
Ask a dozen Hunters, get a dozen answers. “The Reckoning” has entered Hunter parlance as of late as a shorthand that conveys the same sort of awareness as many modern social-justice movements.

The phrase itself is vague enough that it doesn’t create any unnecessary difficulties when the Hunter isn’t ready to have them. In this sense, inquiring after a Reckoning works almost like a secret handshake or a code word intended to determine awareness of one another among Hunters. (This is not without risk, as it comes with the potential of being misunderstood as hysterical or conspiratorial. Don’t tell the register clerk that “A Reckoning is coming...” as you try to purchase more than the regulated amount of fertilizer at the home-improvement store.)

At the same time, the Reckoning is a term of immediacy, conveying an effort of resistance against the creatures of the night, in contrast with the human history of dwelling in their shadow and serving or sating their pernicious hungers.

To a Hunter with a Faithful background, it may suggest a time of judgment, such as an era of Revelation or the loosing of Indra’s bolt.
To a Hunter with a Martial background, it may suggest the escalation of operations intended to curtail supernatural influence.
To a Hunter with a businesslike perspective, it might represent “balancing the books,” taking power away from the sinister inequality that has existed between humans and darker powers since time immemorial.

Ultimately, the Reckoning is the struggle against supernatural abuse and domination, and it is now.

So all these people supposedly started talking about the "Reckoning" at the same time despite having different worldviews and interpretations of what it's supposed to mean. And this phenomenon only started happening recently in the setting. How did this happen? Why did it happen now and not before? No explanation. And it will be the same with stuff like the Garou Nation, I assume. You will just get a description of how it's broken and dysfunctional while Elders still try to cling to it. And there will be no explanation for how this happened.

[Ragged Robin]

If you don't like the Litany and want to portray it as a negative why would you get rid of the problematic ones?

[Ana Mizuki]

Bringing it back...? I think W5 goes more for the general notion that the Garou-Nation and the Litany are bad and you're supposed to be critical of those things if not outright reject them. And the PCs are of course the "good kind of Garou" unlike the Elders or the Get of Fenris Tribe.

But that is the thing, IF the PCs were to do that, it would break the game entirely. For the reasons you outlined.

[11twiggins]

If you don't like the Litany and want to portray it as a negative why would you get rid of the problematic ones?

If a game includes bad things it's an endorsement of those things*; see the answers, tweets and so on which imply that in W20 and prior the Litany was supposed to be good.

(that said I do see fans, including on here, who seem to have managed to convince themselves that the bigoted parts of the Litany actually are good, but that's something you find in all fandoms unfortunately; see people who unironically think the Imperium of Man is 'based' or whatever)

*this is a joke

[11twiggins]

But that is the thing, IF the PCs were to do that, it would break the game entirely. For the reasons you outlined.

Yeah part of the tension and horror of Werewolf is that you're rewarded for emulating failures who came before you - if you want to push the needle towards economic justice, saving the climate, righting past wrongs, you need to do it while walking the tightrope of going "I am here to fix Problem. Now, wise elder Created-The-Problem, please promote me." That's an interesting and suitably horrifying premise; if you simply reject those who came before you, publicly and loudly, you'll be ostracized, dead or Ronin. Garou culture is might-makes-right unfortunately. If you're right, why are you within reach of my Grand Klaive? Yeah, thought not.