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  • #61
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

    High rank has always meant more dangers, but renown has never been a double-edge sword where getting it means you are being punished. The language used hints that making a difference equals not only that Wyrm notices you, but that others will want to put you down.

    Aka, it is a punishment first, reward last.
    But that's how politics works, basicall. In VtM, in Vikings, in real life and now also in WtA!

    Success as a double edged sword, as a concept, works just fine: We'll see how it is implemented, the risk of Something vey clumsy is real.

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    • #62
      Well... this all took of in a bunch of directions...

      Though Manfr that's not how politics works. A problem with politics that's always been a problem with politics is that it works the exact opposite: once you gain stable power, it's easier to keep power than it is for someone else to take it. The ultimate form of power in politics is the ability to deny any attempts to take your power away, and most people will help you get greater power as long as they think they get more power than everyone else in the process, while the number of people that will simple oppose you on principle will be too small to matter.

      Power accumulates at the top, because it's more politically beneficial for the powerful to unite against the weak to protect their power, than it is for the powerful to ally with the weak to take down other members of the elite, because then any member of the elite - including the one allying with the weak - can go down. While there is a host of historical and current individuals that have trying to work the system to push back against naked political gamesmanship, in the grand scheme of things, the powerful stay that way because by definition that power includes the ability to protect it from others.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Manfr View Post

        The only answer I can think of is "We have to wait", we know too little of how they will portray Apocalypse and the Get methods.

        They may have inherited a bit of the Talons' "NeoImpergium philosophy", mixed with paranoia, and suddenly their good reasons would clash with horrific catastrophes with a lot of (intended) collateral victims.

        At the same time, if Gaia is dead or dying, fighting a partisan war to defend your holy grounds while slowly building back alliances with likeminded packs and sanitizing the Umbra could be more effective than trying to face the Wyrm in the Epic Battle of Doom.
        I mean, it's not really their philosophy. More like their lament that they can't impose the Impergium on humanity, but humanity is basically imposing it on them and on wolves.

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        • #64
          Unfortunately Parawolf doesn't seem to like the idea of there being power structures to rage against in their Gothic punk games. But at the same time you're not allowed to be part of an organisation yourself, everything must be kept as low as possible. V5 seems to have escaped a lot of this by being the first WoD5 game, but even it is weird (House Carna apparently developed a new style of Blood Sorcery on par with House Tremere's in maybe two decades? Despite embracing far fewer people with research experience? Riiiiight). A lot of the oWoD has that element of power being locked at the top, the main lines missing it being Hunter (who were too new to have solidified such structures), Demon (where the higher ups are mostly in Hell or Earthbound), and maybe Changeling (which seems to have a relatively flat power structure).

          Werewolf was definitely no exception, but at least those in power were fighting for a good cause,even if they're at best traditionalist jerks who are Doing It Wrong. But unlike, for example, Vampire, there is at least some real opportunity for upwards advancement, and the potential to game the system yourself if you want to. You'll probably die before then, but there's the chance.

          You want a more equal society cub? Look at the Black Spiral Dancers and where that leads. (Yeah, if the Garou are how the left sees the right the BSDs are how the left thinks the right sees the left.)


          Blue is sarcasm.

          If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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          • #65
            I found the statement that werewolf is 'going back to its roots' a little odd considering the games been pretty consistant since day 1. It never really strayed from its roots.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
              I found the statement that werewolf is 'going back to its roots' a little odd considering the games been pretty consistant since day 1. It never really strayed from its roots.
              Returning to its roots sounds good, which is why he said it. That applies to most of the things he's said in the QA - style over substance. Whether it ever strayed is immaterial. He's redefining Pentex, by making them identical to how they were before, it seems. So the 'legacy' WTA is less a matter of the editions that were published, but the editions that exist in his head.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                Well... this all took of in a bunch of directions...

                Though Manfr that's not how politics works. A problem with politics that's always been a problem with politics is that it works the exact opposite: once you gain stable power, it's easier to keep power than it is for someone else to take it. The ultimate form of power in politics is the ability to deny any attempts to take your power away, and most people will help you get greater power as long as they think they get more power than everyone else in the process, while the number of people that will simple oppose you on principle will be too small to matter.

                Power accumulates at the top, because it's more politically beneficial for the powerful to unite against the weak to protect their power, than it is for the powerful to ally with the weak to take down other members of the elite, because then any member of the elite - including the one allying with the weak - can go down. While there is a host of historical and current individuals that have trying to work the system to push back against naked political gamesmanship, in the grand scheme of things, the powerful stay that way because by definition that power includes the ability to protect it from others.
                Yeah, exactly: werewolves will not be the top dog in the dying Gaian ecosystem. As they start to accumulate power ("to build their legend ", I think he said?), someone with real control over things will notice and think how to protect his ingrained interests.

                I don't know if it will work like this In Game (it seems a tricky mechanic to work out), but I agree with you, I was generally arguing for what you said.

                Perhaps they will look at some of of the "Project" mechanisms in V5, and mix it with the H5 Danger Track, to model the answer of the game world to your rise.
                Last edited by Manfr; 10-29-2022, 02:02 AM.

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                • #68
                  The problem is, that W5 wants to focus on the "local" level of play. Becoming the "top dog" is a lot easier when there's only your pack, an antagonistic Get pack, and a bunch of enemies. Getting to high Renown means you've already tussled with the Get pack and other antagonists, and come out the better.

                  If anyone else is coming to strip you of your earned power, it's going to take away from the local/personal scale the game wants to focus on. If you've already gained high Glory by establishing superiority over the local antagonists... the only way for someone to take notice and want to screw with that is to step out of the local/personal scale for a new antagonistic from a lager scale of play to step in because your regional power is a threat to their regional power.

                  In the "legacy" games, this is covered already, because you are supposed to move up in the scale of what you're fighting as you gain Renown and Rank. As you step into bigger stakes conflicts, you naturally come into the sights of bigger scale foes. W5, however it implements this mechanically, is setting up a situation where the only way to deal with increasing Renown becoming an increased threat by putting a target on you, is for your local already defeated enemies to gain power if you beat them. So to avoid a contradiction of scale, you are forced into a contradiction of narrative as you can never defeat enemies as they will just grow stronger or get replaced by stronger enemies to fill the same niche, to explain the increased threats of high Renown.

                  Or we'll see something like H5 where these things just aren't addressed even as the game tells you to deal with them.

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                  • #69
                    After all I don't know what is W5 about. I look at GI Joe rpg and I know that my character will be facing Cobra terrorists. In Symbaroum I am going to re discover old empire in hostile enviroment and be a part of struggling forces, in Alien I'm gonna survive against xenos and in Pony game I am playing a pony.
                    In W5 I am struggling against Apocalypse which is probably ended, saving dead Gaia, being a tribe member that in my opinion is not a tribe, using renown as gnosis, playing on mythical street level , ignore the core of WtA , being in center of cosmic power shift where.main antagonistic force is not so antagonistic anymore, playing against former good tribes but remaining bad myself. Oh f.... Me.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      The problem is, that W5 wants to focus on the "local" level of play. Becoming the "top dog" is a lot easier when there's only your pack, an antagonistic Get pack, and a bunch of enemies. Getting to high Renown means you've already tussled with the Get pack and other antagonists, and come out the better.

                      If anyone else is coming to strip you of your earned power, it's going to take away from the local/personal scale the game wants to focus on. If you've already gained high Glory by establishing superiority over the local antagonists... the only way for someone to take notice and want to screw with that is to step out of the local/personal scale for a new antagonistic from a lager scale of play to step in because your regional power is a threat to their regional power.

                      In the "legacy" games, this is covered already, because you are supposed to move up in the scale of what you're fighting as you gain Renown and Rank. As you step into bigger stakes conflicts, you naturally come into the sights of bigger scale foes. W5, however it implements this mechanically, is setting up a situation where the only way to deal with increasing Renown becoming an increased threat by putting a target on you, is for your local already defeated enemies to gain power if you beat them. So to avoid a contradiction of scale, you are forced into a contradiction of narrative as you can never defeat enemies as they will just grow stronger or get replaced by stronger enemies to fill the same niche, to explain the increased threats of high Renown.

                      Or we'll see something like H5 where these things just aren't addressed even as the game tells you to deal with them.

                      I agree that's the trickiest part, I haven't played W1 and W2 but I don't think they were less than heroic than Revised. The pivoting towards Personal Horror is general re-orientation of games, not exactly a pure "return to origins". Fighting for the environment has at best a "glocal" declination, but you can't keep the fight always at your street address. This ties in with the power level question: in V5, you have a lack of Elders, though not absolute, but you still have Ancillae filling in most positions in the new Camarilla power structure after the Beckoning (you also have an all-Ancilla Chronicle Book in the "Fall of London", though that may well become an outlier, now that Justin is at helm).

                      Ancillae are also one of the Player Tier options, so even though most of the discourse is focused on Fledgelings and Neonates, you have an explicit setup for a higher-power game.

                      How will W5 address this? We will have to wait and see: I remain mostly positive on the changes as presente‚Äčd, but Q&As are not the best place in which to give precise and informative answers, and so far there's still too little out there on how are you supposed to play in the new Edition.
                      Last edited by Manfr; 10-29-2022, 04:06 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                        So the 'legacy' WTA is less a matter of the editions that were published, but the editions that exist in his head.

                        Which is odd because Justin was never a werewolf guy. This whole thing feels malformed at a conceptual level, I'm not even convinced the lore as a barrier for newbies is actually legit.
                        Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-29-2022, 07:13 AM.

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                        • #72
                          One particular way where high Renown may lead to danger is with spirits and the Umbra, I think. Renown is also about what the spirits think of you. And in W5 the Garou apparently have only a limited understanding of the Umbra and the Umbra itself is more "unpredictable" according to Justin. Also, this potential of conflict goes so far as to that Justin suggested even a spirit aligned with Gaia may be an antagonist to the Garou.

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                          • #73
                            One thing what really bothers me is the retcon of Kinfolk. Not (only) because of great RP element is gone, but because it fundamentaly f*cks the world:

                            1) War of Rage: We can assume that other changers also pop-up everywhere in the (human) population. So you will not be able to eradicate one changer, except if you kill your own breeding stock. A rule could be (and was - in the legacy) made that a changer dies out if all of the animal kin are exterminted. BUT we have bisons, bats, boars...
                            Additionaly the popping up could be "anywhere", so there is a chance that in your wider family you have other changers also. In this case waging the war is less-realistic as you hesitate more to attack your "own", and would share your life (good & bad) easier.

                            2) Silver Fangs: Their population is kept up by careful breeding. The number of the elit x chance of becoming a werewolf - the chance is becoming anything else should be minimal. There could not be enough Fangs to rule.

                            BUT taking the opening social sissor, inequity & urbanisation into account we should have a sh*tload of Glass Walkers & even more Bone Gnawers, who, just because of their mass would be the main decision body of the Nation.


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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post
                              2) Silver Fangs: Their population is kept up by careful breeding. The number of the elit x chance of becoming a werewolf - the chance is becoming anything else should be minimal. There could not be enough Fangs to rule.

                              BUT taking the opening social sissor, inequity & urbanisation into account we should have a sh*tload of Glass Walkers & even more Bone Gnawers, who, just because of their mass would be the main decision body of the Nation.
                              You have to look at this from the Forsaken POV. There is no Silver Fang bloodline, only those who feel they belong to the Fangs become Fangs.

                              So everyone basically goes to the tribe that fits them. Which, well, creates a FUCKTON of overlap.


                              My gallery.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post
                                One thing what really bothers me is the retcon of Kinfolk. Not (only) because of great RP element is gone, but because it fundamentaly f*cks the world:

                                1) War of Rage: We can assume that other changers also pop-up everywhere in the (human) population. So you will not be able to eradicate one changer, except if you kill your own breeding stock. A rule could be (and was - in the legacy) made that a changer dies out if all of the animal kin are exterminted. BUT we have bisons, bats, boars...
                                Additionaly the popping up could be "anywhere", so there is a chance that in your wider family you have other changers also. In this case waging the war is less-realistic as you hesitate more to attack your "own", and would share your life (good & bad) easier.

                                2) Silver Fangs: Their population is kept up by careful breeding. The number of the elit x chance of becoming a werewolf - the chance is becoming anything else should be minimal. There could not be enough Fangs to rule.

                                BUT taking the opening social sissor, inequity & urbanisation into account we should have a sh*tload of Glass Walkers & even more Bone Gnawers, who, just because of their mass would be the main decision body of the Nation.
                                Regarding 1)... I'm curious how much the W5 corebook will invest in worldbuilding and describing the history of Garou with this changed version.

                                With 2)... Black Furies were described with the idea of "fighting injustice" being the trigger. I assume with the Silver Fangs it's something like an urge to "lead and motivate others" and that's what gets you into the Silver Fangs.

                                On that note, what was also mentioned was that for Bone Gnawers their thing is gathering secrets and Ghost Council's thing is testing taboos. And Fianna's is probably an urge to "protect the land" or something like that. I think with my interpretation of what the verbs from the preview are saying, I'm pretty close to what these Tribes' core-things have turned out to be so far.

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