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Originally posted by 11twiggins
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I know the convo has moved on a tad, but I had to comment on all the "Werewolves are fuckups" "Werewolves are failures" "Werewolves are getting what they deserve" stuff.
I say this as a fan of WTA, playing a W20 PC currently, running a W20 Changing Breeds game; Yes! But also No!
The key question is how WILL you rage. Your ancestors did fuck up. Not always, not every time, but when things really truly mattered they fumbled the ball. A team of 10ish players has basically been cut down to a team of 1ish, over many of the key battlegrounds in the world. Arguably the Wyrm's greatest asset? Began as a tribe of Garou. It's also the biggest and fastest growing Tribe, and arguably the one that's having the biggest impact on the war. Your Elders will recognize that the Garou Nation has gone wrong to hugely varying degrees; some will think it's time to Double Down, some will thing it's time for change.
But which do you think, just instinctively, an Elder in a typical society will represent. Change or conservatism?
"Please award me Honour and Wisdom for Fixing the Problem, honoured Elder..." checks deed name "Created-The-Problem." And all of this is a feature not a bug. You are part of a might makes right theocratic isolationist war footing culture which values obedience over innovation, where the Tribe which says "hey may a peaceful approach should be in our top 3 options" is noteworthy. The good points, the noteworthy upsides of the Children of Gaia and Glass Walkers come with implicit assumptions; if we're told that these are things they are especially well known for, what does it tell us about the other tribes? But all of this is the point. It's part of the horror.
You have been conscripted, willingly or unwillingly, from birth or transformation, into a war against the end of the world. The enemy is pure evil. You cut away the cancer, remove the toxins, slay the parasites, bind up the wounds. Your fellow surgeons are where things get complicated. You're junior to 4 whole ranks worth of people who will include fuckups and failsons and out of date types and hasbeens. It's just how time works, how society works, how people work. Are there heroes and inspirations? Totally. But the problem is there, and if you point out the emperor has no clothes... well that could cost you Honour. If you question the "Wisdom" of an Elder, even if it's unwise in the human (and perhaps more genuine) sense, you could lose Wisdom. If you prefer a non-violent method, you could be labeled a coward, and there goes your Glory.
When you really boil it down, the Renown system is an incentive structure which primarily rewards killing enemies, honouring existing Garou culture and traditions, and pleasing those above you. Tell a great story at a moot. Learn a rite. Kill a Fomor. So you'll accumulate Rank more quickly if you play to that Glory/Wisdom/Honour paradigm, with all its flaws. Where you will lose Honour for questioning their betters, for questioning a Might Makes Right system, for doing things which others can interpret or twist into insulting a Tribe's ways, or another's accomplishments.
And despite all of that, the Garou Nation is necessary and crucial. What are YOU going to do about it. You're the new kid with everything to prove and little to lose. A spanner in the works. How are YOU going to rage? How are YOU going to find the necessary balance to fix stuff whilst also pleasing those above you?
And even then, if you get too caught up on the 'doom' mentality of having been preceded by fuckups who were rewarded for actions which may well have harmed Gaia... (you think Garou never got Glory for successfully kidnapping Kinfolk brides, or successfully bringing a feud with other Garou to a violent end?) you'll miss the genuine diamonds among your superiors who are perhaps, for now, even more crucial to fixing the problem than you. So you have this fight against corruption, against human society, against Garou society, against bigotries and laziness and isolationism and fear and tradition, against your own tendency towards becoming jaded or depressed or over-zealous, and against all those who are taking advantage of the shitshow to further their own political career.
Sounds like something you could make a game out of!
I say this as a fan of WTA, playing a W20 PC currently, running a W20 Changing Breeds game; Yes! But also No!
The key question is how WILL you rage. Your ancestors did fuck up. Not always, not every time, but when things really truly mattered they fumbled the ball. A team of 10ish players has basically been cut down to a team of 1ish, over many of the key battlegrounds in the world. Arguably the Wyrm's greatest asset? Began as a tribe of Garou. It's also the biggest and fastest growing Tribe, and arguably the one that's having the biggest impact on the war. Your Elders will recognize that the Garou Nation has gone wrong to hugely varying degrees; some will think it's time to Double Down, some will thing it's time for change.
But which do you think, just instinctively, an Elder in a typical society will represent. Change or conservatism?
"Please award me Honour and Wisdom for Fixing the Problem, honoured Elder..." checks deed name "Created-The-Problem." And all of this is a feature not a bug. You are part of a might makes right theocratic isolationist war footing culture which values obedience over innovation, where the Tribe which says "hey may a peaceful approach should be in our top 3 options" is noteworthy. The good points, the noteworthy upsides of the Children of Gaia and Glass Walkers come with implicit assumptions; if we're told that these are things they are especially well known for, what does it tell us about the other tribes? But all of this is the point. It's part of the horror.
You have been conscripted, willingly or unwillingly, from birth or transformation, into a war against the end of the world. The enemy is pure evil. You cut away the cancer, remove the toxins, slay the parasites, bind up the wounds. Your fellow surgeons are where things get complicated. You're junior to 4 whole ranks worth of people who will include fuckups and failsons and out of date types and hasbeens. It's just how time works, how society works, how people work. Are there heroes and inspirations? Totally. But the problem is there, and if you point out the emperor has no clothes... well that could cost you Honour. If you question the "Wisdom" of an Elder, even if it's unwise in the human (and perhaps more genuine) sense, you could lose Wisdom. If you prefer a non-violent method, you could be labeled a coward, and there goes your Glory.
When you really boil it down, the Renown system is an incentive structure which primarily rewards killing enemies, honouring existing Garou culture and traditions, and pleasing those above you. Tell a great story at a moot. Learn a rite. Kill a Fomor. So you'll accumulate Rank more quickly if you play to that Glory/Wisdom/Honour paradigm, with all its flaws. Where you will lose Honour for questioning their betters, for questioning a Might Makes Right system, for doing things which others can interpret or twist into insulting a Tribe's ways, or another's accomplishments.
And despite all of that, the Garou Nation is necessary and crucial. What are YOU going to do about it. You're the new kid with everything to prove and little to lose. A spanner in the works. How are YOU going to rage? How are YOU going to find the necessary balance to fix stuff whilst also pleasing those above you?
And even then, if you get too caught up on the 'doom' mentality of having been preceded by fuckups who were rewarded for actions which may well have harmed Gaia... (you think Garou never got Glory for successfully kidnapping Kinfolk brides, or successfully bringing a feud with other Garou to a violent end?) you'll miss the genuine diamonds among your superiors who are perhaps, for now, even more crucial to fixing the problem than you. So you have this fight against corruption, against human society, against Garou society, against bigotries and laziness and isolationism and fear and tradition, against your own tendency towards becoming jaded or depressed or over-zealous, and against all those who are taking advantage of the shitshow to further their own political career.
Sounds like something you could make a game out of!
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