The Fight Isn't Over

[Knightingale]

I'd say this is the case, which would mean no Curse or anything making interaction with humans hard. After all, there are no more kinfolk to handle this stuff.

Additionally since there are no powers anymore to detect spirits or identify them like Sense Wyrm, for example, that would mean Garou can only recognize Formori through circumstantial evidence and the only way they could get that is if they were in the same sort of spaces a lobbyist would be. And considering that the lobbyist is talking about greenwashing, I assume, W5 suggests Garou can now be environmental activists who get involved in human politics.

[Ana Mizuki]

Additionally since there are no powers anymore to detect spirits or identify them like Sense Wyrm, for example, that would mean Garou can only recognize Formori through circumstantial evidence and the only way they could get that is if they were in the same sort of spaces a lobbyist would be. And considering that the lobbyist is talking about greenwashing, I assume, W5 suggests Garou can now be environmental activists who get involved in human politics.

It also seems the game is taking the stance that garou can only do just a smidge more than your average human activist. Taking away the whole 'garou can take the concept of cancer and beat it up to cure a person' aspect.

Also, since you can play a lupus, does this mean that anyone who doesn't want to play a city game is stuck twiddling their dewclaws while the REAL heroes are going to council meetings,etc? And because of that have most lupus left with the Fenrir to do more direct action?

[MrNatas]

But that is too epic and not personal (even though nothing is more personal than seeing the results of your actions during the final battle) and so the final push is demonized and the focus is instead on arranging deckchairs on the Titanic.

Gentlemen, it has been a privilege playing with you tonight. Violins play

While I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea of wanting to have a (semi)normal life in the Caern, I think it misses the point of that you can't and ignoring what is happening around you is bad. Like Apocalypse has protecting the territory with how the Protectorates worked. Like again 90% of Garou lived in or around a Caern and dealt with problem in that Sept and Protectorate but, this was in service to making sure the larger forces in the World were kept at bay and you worked to a better tomorrow.

So one of the example Formori-antagonists is a... lobbyist? How would a pack of Garou ever encounter that guy... unless this new version of Garou is expected to be really invested in their human lives and spending quite some time just living a normal life with a job and whatnot.

We already had a grasp about Justin ideas about what a werewolf was but, I'm really shocked just how far it is. Like this kind of antagonist really doesn't make sense to a good villain and honestly makes Garou seem way more like actual Comic Superheroes than ever before.

Clark Kent was you mild mannered reporter until he discovered that a Fomor was his local congressmen and using his evil magic to stop the town from growing. That's when he calls his Pack together and transforms into the Garou-Friends! Champions of justice and Nature.

There was a reason why most low-level grunts and direct bad guys were fomori that had weird power that did direct attacks and things, and most high-level threats were thing you couldn't deal with directly. Garou really struggle with dealing with things that are not direct ... which again is the point. What a Garou is, and their culture doesn't deal with indirect problems well.

[Knightingale]

The lobbyist trying to engage in greenwashing also bothers me. At the end of the day, the werewolves, the Garou-Nation, the war against the Wyrm, the Umbra etc. Those are all fictional and fantastical things and as a writer you're supposed to take these things and make them meaningful. Metaphors, allegories, themes and whatnot. That's why the "The WOD is our world now!"-stuff bothers me. First, it totally misses the point of even playing a werewolf. Dealing with bad climate-change-policy of our world is the subtext to fixing the Garou-Nation and dealing with the Wyrm and Weaver. That's some Garth-Marenghi-ass writing to have Garou literally fight lobbyists who campaign for bad climate-change-policy. I mean, what, is part of being a Garou now to tell NPCs about the problems with the overly financialized carbon-offsets as a way to deal with climate change? Not really needing to know this and instead just beating up bad spirits and dealing with a fantastical, far-removed-from-reality setting of the Garou-Nation and the local Sept is the frigging point of WtA! At least, the old Pentex were evil corporations. Now you're seemingly stuck being a local activist. The other issue is that such an example would create the precedent for the cringeworthy idea of "The Wyrm made me do it.".

[MrNatas]

Oh boy I sure can't wait for the fun exciting game of filling out a bill and debating in congress about new policies and using my gifts and rite to filibuster the Fomor congressmen. Of course my totem spirit is the American Dream which gives me a bonus to politics.

Like (semi) jokes aside, I really don't get why make things like a lobbyist a fomor. Like are we going to say that literally everything and everyone that, I don't know, liters are a fomor? There is never any kind of reason that would cause anyone to liter unless they were corrupted and possessed by a bane of apathy.

You know what, it sure does make me feel like 1e Werewolf. I personally can't wait for the WoD5 team to tell me the reason Brexit happened was because Boris Johnson was a Fomor.

[TwoDSix]

I mean you might not be stuck as a local activist. Join the Garou Party and you too can fail to be elected to any political positions!

[Asmodai]

Additionally since there are no powers anymore to detect spirits or identify them like Sense Wyrm, for example, that would mean Garou can only recognize Formori through circumstantial evidence and the only way they could get that is if they were in the same sort of spaces a lobbyist would be. And considering that the lobbyist is talking about greenwashing, I assume, W5 suggests Garou can now be environmental activists who get involved in human politics.

The Curse did make it hard, but it's not like they couldn't do that before. It was the GW, SL and CoG shtick to meddle in mortal politics. I'm more confused by the Fomor that's doing the same thing that a normal corporate lobbyist is. Are all the enemies going to be supernatural takes on real world issues or will there be real world issues to tackle?

Where's the moral dillemma in killing a fomori lobbyist versus a normal lobbyist?

[Knightingale]

The Curse did make it hard, but it's not like they couldn't do that before. It was the GW, SL and CoG shtick to meddle in mortal politics. I'm more confused by the Fomor that's doing the same thing that a normal corporate lobbyist is. Are all the enemies going to be supernatural takes on real world issues or will there be real world issues to tackle?

Where's the moral dillemma in killing a fomori lobbyist versus a normal lobbyist?

It's less this and more that with how W5 is set up, being a part of those spaces is the only way to be aware of this sort of Wyrm-activity. Previously, it was something that gave those Tribes an edge in the conflict, now it's a necessity.

And I have a similar concern... Is W5 gonna say that the young Garou you're playing are actually less concerned with protecting Gaia and more concerned with stopping climate change? Like, " 'Protecting Gaia' is silly, old Garou-Nation mumbo-jumbo, the real way to deal with the Wyrm is to stop climate change!". Is that where this is gonna go?

[TwoDSix]

Considering Gaia is supposed to be dead, I think that's very likely. It's Forsaken with the added bonus of mandatory political debates. As well as extra difficulty actually killing Fomori, if they're able to blend into society well enough to act as lobbyists.

Congratulations W5, you've made me want to run both Apocalypse 20 and Forsaken 2. At least I have an idea for a decay spirit-claimed antagonist in Forsaken, although being a lobbyist still seems silly. I'll spin something out of ruling a run down neighbourhood.

[Ana Mizuki]

I can't believe I have to bring this up again, but here goes; During Forsaken 1st ed's later half, I brought up an issue concerning the fact that none of the NPCs seemed to have any wolf form descriptors at all. Implying that these characters were not really written as werewolves but as humans with powers.

So once more, I need to ask; Is W5 about werewolves, as having lupus implies, or is it about humans with magical powers of spirit magic and shape-shifting?

[Heavy Arms]

While I disagree with the premise that a game about werewolves can't also be a game about humans with shape-shifting and animist based powers...

I think the answer is pretty clear. Lupus are only in the game because it's a "legacy" holdover. They're not there to make a statement about the psychology of the PCs, the culture of the Garou, or what that means for the narrative thrust of why anything that's happening is happening. I don't think Justin could be more clear that he doesn't intend to have W5 be a continuation of the themes of WtA in a meaningful fashion It's going to be about werewolves because werewolves is a very broad monster type with minimal defining traits besides shape-shifting. It's not going to be a game about the kind of werewolves WtA was before.

[Ana Mizuki]

While I disagree with the premise that a game about werewolves can't also be a game about humans with shape-shifting and animist based powers...

This might be just my own pet peeves, but if a character in a -werewolf- book where the werewolves have 5 forms has only a description of 2/5 of the forms, I feel they could have been a mage NPC and such. But this is just me liking the wolf aspect more XD

I think the answer is pretty clear. Lupus are only in the game because it's a "legacy" holdover. They're not there to make a statement about the psychology of the PCs, the culture of the Garou, or what that means for the narrative thrust of why anything that's happening is happening. I don't think Justin could be more clear that he doesn't intend to have W5 be a continuation of the themes of WtA in a meaningful fashion It's going to be about werewolves because werewolves is a very broad monster type with minimal defining traits besides shape-shifting. It's not going to be a game about the kind of werewolves WtA was before.

I know, but it amuses me how -lupus- is the legacy thing kept when even on this forum you get people demanding any lupus player to play basically a realistic wolf who cannot speak a human language to even play one. And then he does nothing with it even though a reboot would be a GREAT chance to adjust the breed.

[Knightingale]

How would Lupus be situated in the W5-setting anyway? I mean with the Kin-Garou-dynamic being the way it is, Lupus Garou existing means that random wolves all over the world occasionally turn into shapeshifters. So how does that work? How do they become part of the Garou-Nation? And how does the whole Tribe-thing work in relation to that? I can't imagine any wolf suddenly becoming a shapeshifter and having an opinion about "injustice" which would attract the Black Furies Patron-Spirit, for example.

[Ana Mizuki]

How would Lupus be situated in the W5-setting anyway? I mean with the Kin-Garou-dynamic being the way it is, Lupus Garou existing means that random wolves all over the world occasionally turn into shapeshifters. So how does that work? How do they become part of the Garou-Nation? And how does the whole Tribe-thing work in relation to that? I can't imagine any wolf suddenly becoming a shapeshifter and having an opinion about "injustice" which would attract the Black Furies Patron-Spirit, for example.

The cynical side of me says it'll be; Who cares, you are going to play homid anyway so the tribe just finds them I guess?

[AnubisXy]

How would Lupus be situated in the W5-setting anyway? I mean with the Kin-Garou-dynamic being the way it is, Lupus Garou existing means that random wolves all over the world occasionally turn into shapeshifters. So how does that work? How do they become part of the Garou-Nation? And how does the whole Tribe-thing work in relation to that? I can't imagine any wolf suddenly becoming a shapeshifter and having an opinion about "injustice" which would attract the Black Furies Patron-Spirit, for example.

I mostly agree. I expect most of them would end up joining the Red Talons. There might be a few who end up joining other Tribes due to some reason - maybe the lupus ended up spending a bit of time in towns before its First Change and joined the Bonegnawers. Maybe the wolf was part of a pack that was semi-familiar with humans in a positive way and joins the Children of Gaia. Or they just really like to travel so they joined the Striders. For many Tribes though, their focus is definitely more human oriented (Fianna, Black Furies, Glasswalkers, and some others) so you'll probably end up with a slightly convoluted backstory as to why the lupus ended up joining that particular Tribe.