The Fight Isn't Over

[MrNatas]

This is just completely off the wall (so it's head cannon) but, I always assumed the reason Stag has a relationship with Fae is because Stag is the Fera aspect of Oberon. I don't think it was talked about anywhere its just stuck in my mind as 'correct'. I know that Danu is also a totem spirit associated with the Fianna, so I guess it just snagged in my mind.

[Black Fox]

Well, a deer spirit is most likely a member of Stags brood and there are attributes given to the spirit by humans, garou and other sentient beings that are represented in the spirit - going beyond the nature of the animal. Gaffelings possibly show these attributes less, than Jacklings. I'm thinking of attributes like virility, masculine power of nature, life, appearing to lost Garou, leading them out of danger or aiding them in a crisis. I mean an animal deer wouldn't ask a Galliard via Beast Speech to aid faeries, would it? A spirit deer in the service of Stag would.

I'll comment on this since it is a side discussion on the nature of spirits. I would argue that a lot of these associations with spirits, while arising from human culture in the real world, is because of more objective criteria in the World of Darkness setting.

Stag doesn't have an association with the fey because a certain human culture made it so. It is because Stag made an ancient pact with the fey. And that is why none of his Garou children or spirit brood won't harm the fey. It is a direct command from the Incarna. It isn't clear why or how Stag made this pact, or with whom. This is an area where the ST needs to fill in the gaps assuming it is important at all to her. (In my mind it is because Gaia asked Stag to do so, and Stag made the pact with the most powerful of the Tuatha de Danaan who had the power and authority to do so.) Similarly we are told that Stag made an alliance with Oak in the elder days, so the Oak spirit treats the Fianna more favorably than other Garou. Likewise, it is entirely feasible that Stag possesses certain virile masculine qualities because that is what Gaia wanted when she created the Stag spirit. I am not saying there is not any room for human cultural ideas to be incorporated in the spirit world, but I don't think it is decisive. These animal spirits (and other kinds) were doing their things before humanity ever existed so there is a lot of objective qualities to them.

If were going to incorporate spirits into a brood that were more human culture dependent, I wouldn't do so by taking a general deer spirit and having it be different in different areas (and thereby if it wanders from one geographic region to another, suddenly change its attributes and personality). Instead I'd create new special/different spirits where each one incorporates a different aspect, give them different names, and run them as separate spirits if needed. To again use Stag as an example, we have generic deer gafflings, we have other specific spirits that fall under the "deer" category but would be the individual red deer/white tailed deer/roe deer/elk/etc spirits (although perhaps I might use the same mechanics as the deer gaffling), and we have Hind, Yale, Black Stags, Kelpies, White Harts. All of these are "deer spirits", but cover a lot of concepts. If the Japanese for example have a very different concept associated with sika deer that isn't usually represented in Stag's brood and I wanted to use that in game, I'd probably just create a new spirit to reflect that in the same way we have Hind, Yale, etc. rather than saying an existing spirit changes simply because it enters the Penumbra of Japan.

In areas where there are not stags/deer naturally live the attribute of helper to the lost and representing live might be attributed to other animals and therefore be present in animal spirits. So, I think there is a local factor to the attributes nature and animal spirits have.

True, but again I don't think this is as strong as you think it is. Impala is supposed to be part of Stag's brood, even though that creature is not a deer and is not present in areas where deer are. The local Changing Breeds in southern Africa would still have a representative of Stag there. They might have their own name for Stag since a stag is technically a term for an adult red deer although it is loosely used for any big male deer, but it would still be "Stag" (and called that OOC to make it easier for player understanding even if they use a different term that makes better sense for them). As an Incarna, Stag is much more than just an adult red deer in a scientific sense, but has all sorts of spiritual connotations. I just think many of those spiritual connotations are not imposed on it by human belief, but is part of a more objective spiritual reality and the effects of events in time as other spirits join Stag's brood to be under its protection, additional pacts or alliances that are made by Stag, actions by the Incarna in the greater spirit world and so on.

An indigenous Bastet living in southern Africa probably has a different understanding of "Stag" and Stag's spirit brood than Garou in northern Eurasia, but still knows that there is a such a brood even if her understanding of the Stag Incarna is more like an enormous male impala ram rather than a red deer. Maybe this conception is wrong, and if that Bastet should ever somehow come across the Incarna she might view him in his more traditional appearance, but the brood is still represented. The Impala spirit is still an impala spirit, not some disguised deer spirit.

Also, not all concepts that are embodied in spirits are necessarily the exclusive province of one spirit or Incarna. Fenris is a totem of war, but there are plenty of other spirits of war some of whom are their own Incarna. We know spirits like Boar, Bear, Rat, Griffin, Wendigo plus many others found in many other sourcebooks are all some kind of war spirit, even though each individual spirit represents their own aspect of that concept. You're not forced to say in order for there to be Fenris, that Fenris is actually a fearsome Lion spirit in Africa. Or that all war spirits must be part of Fenris' brood. Instead, the local Changing Breeds there would appeal to a more native spirit associated with war like Crocodile, Rhino, or Panther. It doesn't require you to transform spirits according to the local human culture. You can keep local flavor.

Furthermore, there is even diversity within each spirit brood. Unicorn might be associated with peace and has various animal spirts associated with it because of that, but it also has Black Unicorn which is a war totem. There can be a lot of variety within the various spirits of a brood.

I personally prefer for a more objective depiction of spirits and their roles in the setting, even if there is a certain amount of overlap, duplication, and rivalries. It would be nice if the game gave this area more thought and provided more Incarna that had large broods, and organized many of the existing published spirits among them. But nobody thought that was important, and for most STs and players it is not necessary. But the spirit brood concept helps me a lot as an ST so ultimately I did a lot of work to come up with something in my own chronicles.

There certainly our spirits more dependent on human culture. I have no problem that a spirit like Aray, which seems more like a human concept of battle than a feature of the natural world, might appear as Ares, Mars, Hachiman, Anur, Huitzilopochtli, Guan Yu or whatever is appropriate to the local Garou summoning it. But most Gaian spirits are not like that. I think that is more appropriate for spirits natural to the Astral Plane than the Middle Umbra since that is the realm of human thought. But I would eschew using that for any spirit based on an objective fact like animals, plants, minerals, etc. that all existed before humanity or human culture.

[heinrich]

Okay, you brought up a lot of smaller communities that survived within a different host culture. And that garou sept's managed something similar is certainly possible. I might have been to dismissive of the idea. And I still would argue that these septs would have diverged, possibly beyond recognition, from the culture of the tribe or proto-tribe they were originally comprised of.

Because an animal is still just an animal, and a plant is still the same plant. Animals, plants, minerals, etc. are always the same regardless of human culture. The essence of being a deer is always the same. It doesn't matter if the humans who live near them are Americans, Swedes, Russians, Indians, Chinese, or anyone else. Sure, maybe one area has white-tailed deer versus red deer versus sika deer or whatever. But those differences are still the differences between animals and not because of the human culture around them.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Human culture is irrelevant to these kind of spirits. Do people really think a deer spirit in Bohemia changed because at one point the people living there were Old Europe pre-IE peoples, then inhabited by Celtic peoples, then by Germanic peoples, and later by Slavic peoples? Or is it still just a deer spirit doing the things all deer do?

Well, a deer spirit is most likely a member of Stags brood and there are attributes given to the spirit by humans, garou and other sentient beings that are represented in the spirit - going beyond the nature of the animal. Gaffelings possibly show these attributes less, than Jacklings. I'm thinking of attributes like virility, masculine power of nature, life, appearing to lost Garou, leading them out of danger or aiding them in a crisis. I mean an animal deer wouldn't ask a Galliard via Beast Speech to aid faeries, would it? A spirit deer in the service of Stag would.

In areas where there are not stags/deer naturally live the attribute of helper to the lost and representing live might be attributed to other animals and therefore be present in animal spirits. So, I think there is a local factor to the attributes nature and animal spirits have.

Thank you for the discussion.

[Black Fox]

Why should spirits in a different part of the world not act differently - depending on local culture.

Because an animal is still just an animal, and a plant is still the same plant. Animals, plants, minerals, etc. are always the same regardless of human culture. The essence of being a deer is always the same. It doesn't matter if the humans who live near them are Americans, Swedes, Russians, Indians, Chinese, or anyone else. Sure, maybe one area has white-tailed deer versus red deer versus sika deer or whatever. But those differences are still the differences between animals and not because of the human culture around them.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Human culture is irrelevant to these kind of spirits. Do people really think a deer spirit in Bohemia changed because at one point the people living there were Old Europe pre-IE peoples, then inhabited by Celtic peoples, then by Germanic peoples, and later by Slavic peoples? Or is it still just a deer spirit doing the things all deer do?

I mean, why would suck spirits be servants of a garou tribal incarnae and not a Bastet or Mokolé totem equivalent or other local yet powerful entity. Or are we believing that the 13 tribal totem broods are the only relevant spirit courts all around the world spirits belong to? I mean, Axis Mundi is also a Mage supplement and it certainly delivers this impression with its 13 chapters structure and not going into details of courts for celestines or naming other equivalent courts.

But I don't think this is how the spirit world should work.

Now we are getting into an area where the game just does not address so every ST is going to decide on their own what to do. I agree that not all spirits should belong to one of the Garou tribal broods. It makes sense that there are other broods than just those. In fact, I did an entire thread on that subject on this forum - trying to figure out what other Incarna should have their own broods, and what kind of spirits fall into them. But that is just my approach. Most STs never get into that kind of detail as it is immaterial to their games, but it is the kind of things I think about because I like using spirit broods as a way to make things more interesting for spirits (as NPCs) and Theurges (as they deal with the spirits).

Certainly the spirits of the same animal could appear in multiple broods. We already have examples of that since multiple canon spirit broods have some kind of raven, crow or other corvid in that brood. They are not the exact same spirit since the game gives each a different name and different stats to them, but they are still essentially a raven spirit or crow spirit even if their specific nature means this kind are most often found in that brood or this other one. So it's not like all spirits 100% neatly line up in one specific brood only. I have no problem with that. But if that happens, I think the ST should have some explanation in mind.

So, not to say you are wrong about the possibility. But I feel that the further time elapses the more likely it is that a sept far removed from other septs of the tribe would cease to exist, by being culturally assimilated by the tribe dominant in the area or by diverging from the culture of the common ancestors into something of their own. I mean, that is how Bone Gnawer and Glass Walkers eventually emerged.

Yes, it is entirely possible that isolated tribal holdings are often wiped out by their neighbors engaged in a war of conquest. It makes sense that many tribes are concentrated in geographic areas. But not all tribes are closely connected to a specific geographic area or specific ethnic groups. Many tribes are known more for certain ideas and spread out over the place. Even if the Silver Fangs are known to be based in Russia, there are lots of current or historical houses that are not. Same goes for Children of Gaia, Bone Gnawers, or Glass Walkers. And of course the Red Talons were never limited by human culture.

Nor are any tribes highly centralized armies of nation states. Most decisions are made at the sept level. There isn't some undisputed general at Tribe X declaring this other tribe must be wiped out in the area. Tribes being extirpated from certain regions make sense. But that doesn't mean no isolated tribal septs cannot survive on their own. They can form alliances, enter tributary status, and engage in other politics with local septs. There could even be an area with several septs allied together who have desperately fought off attempts to wipe them out.

I don't see how this is a problem. Just don't go overboard on it.

That is what I disagree on. If all the means of the garou were used in this way, then none of the tribe would have had relevant geographical ties. But that is not what Mark came up with all these decades ago, when he created WtA.

Except that not all tribes had strong geographical ties. Sure some had very strong geographic and cultural associations. But many did not. Historically the Children of Gaia were supposed to be heavily based in the Middle East, but at no point was it ever depicted that in order to be a Child of Gaia you must be of Middle Eastern heritage. Instead it was just assumed the Children were ubiquitous and spread around a lot. Lots of tribes were like that.

Likewise once the Eurasian tribes came to North America, they didn't divide all their lands into neat geographic boundaries, or decide that one tribe was going to be the American tribe. Instead they were mixed and matched all over the place like a patchwork quilt. I don't see the big issue of not saying some of that could happen in parts of the Old World.

I mean the Fianna in Persia scenario is also one that would allow land travel. And while Australia in canon was shielded from the world until the Order of Reason removed that shield the Americas and Africa would have always been areas for garou to settle and keep in touch with their brethren in Europe and central asia. Same for the KotE setting.

But, WtA clearly states that the Hakken developed differently then the Shadowlords, despite the same tribal totem. And the Pure Ones did not have contact with the other tribes either.

Yes, the Bunyip were isolated from everyone, and the Croatan, Uktena, and Wendigo were isolated from everyone else. But the other tribes weren't. After all they have a shared history with the Impergium, the Concord, and the War of Rage and many other things.

And it gets very complicated when you go way back in time as you have many different authors trying to insert references to this tribe or that tribe at a time when it doesn't make sense to do so. And you have questions like how much did the Litany already exist for a common legal code among Garou as you did have major tribes separated from each other. How is that possible? The answer is that the original game authors didn't give this a whole lot of thought, and people will be piecing these things together and thus come up with different ideas.

The Hakken are an odd case because originally the Hakken were Shadow Lords. Caerns: Places of Power which introduced the Hakken clearly treated them as Shadow Lords. The author just wanted to given them a different name because he thought it would be good flavor text for the tribe's sept example being in Japan. Same thing for the Glass Walkers in Hong Kong. I believe it was only later in Revised that the game decided using a different name meant the Hakken really weren't Shadow Lords. It was just part of that edition's strange Orientalism as an attempt to create more game lines and produce more profits. So personally I ignore it as bad writing.

Well, we don't know when which tribe was formally created. This might not even be something one can definitively date.
Fianna legend (at least one of them) tells that the garou who later became Fianna followed the fair folk all the way to Tir Nan Og when humans (and possibly banality) drove them off. But it also tells, iirc, that this process took centuries and several septs along the way remained. These garou would also be Fianna. But my suspension of disbelieve doesn't reach so far as that I would think a Fianna sept have survived in Persia, even if the general area of Mesopotamia might have been the place where the garou who eventually became Fianna started their journey.

The chances that they were culturally assimilated just seems to high in my opinion.

Most of the tribes are incredibly ancient and pre-date any of the human cultures that may be associated with them. The Fianna are supposed to be one of the most ancient tribes, a peer to the Silver Fangs and Black Furies. Given the centrality of the Fianna to important pan-Garou concepts like the Litany and the Garou Tongue, those contributions have to be very ancient.

The Celtic peoples did not arrive in Ireland until 700 BC or so. The Fianna clearly existed before that. So did the Fianna just finally reach Ireland when their Celtic kinfolk did? If they did, their connections to Ireland perhaps is not as important as we think. If the Fianna predate the Celts arriving in Ireland, than perhaps their connection to the Celtic peoples aren't as important as we think. Nor did all Fianna cram into ships and went to Ireland. There were always Fianna on the continent. And if you are fine with that, I don't see how you can object to the idea that there could be pockets of Fianna elsewhere.

The human culture of the homids becomes assimilated. But the local Children of Stag don't just stop being Children of Stag. Yeah, you can easily rule that many such septs far away from other Children of Stag are eventually invaded, wiped out, and killed. But there's still plenty of room for exceptions if that is what the ST wants. Not all the Wends in Germany have been killed or assimilated. The Nordic peoples did not kill or assimilate all the Lapps. Tatars still retain their identity in Kazan and elsewhere in Russia. Ainu still live in Japan. The Zoroastrian faith still survives in Muslim Iran. The blonde haired, blue-eyed Kalash in Afghanistan/Pakistan are said to be the descendants of Greeks who arrived with Alexander the Great. But you think it's impossible for there to have been any Fianna septs that might have survived outside of Western Europe?

The simple fact is that the authors of the books have never done a good job at handling very old history and how that affects the tribes. (Not to mention odd beliefs that the Amazons were Greeks when the myths are very clear the Amazons were barbarians who fought the Greeks). For most STs that is not a big deal. But if you think seriously about it, you have to make a lot of decisions about how you are going to handle things. I think there is plenty of justification if STs want to introduce this odd tribe here or there as somehow surviving in a region where they are not identified with.

I like canon and try to keep to it as much as possible. But there are bits of canon that are just not thought out well, and I have no problem improving on canon in my chronicles when it annoys me too much. I try to keep to its spirit as much as possible. But frankly the games' authors have felt free to remove, change, or piss on canon whenever it was convenient for them to do so, so I'm in good company.

We may just need to agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.

[heinrich]

I am not talking about the homids being Celts. I am talking about homids of whatever local culture still being followers of Stag, and thus recipients of Stag's instructions or requests, and their Garou culture (not the human culture of the homids) being informed by it. A spirit of Stag or its brood should be universal throughout the world. You don't get deer spirits (or rabbit or any other creature that may be part of that brood) acting different in parts of the world because the human culture is different.

Why should spirits in a different part of the world not act differently - depending on local culture. We have established that the umbal landscape changes and that human invention creates new spirits and that generally speaking a kind symbiotic relationship exists. Spirits in KoTE also behave differently, forming other hierarchies and such.
Also, animal spirits of animals that not exist in a given region should not necessarily be present there. That some animal spirit exists, that in theory is part of Stags brood, in the African desert or amazon jungle is certainly something that occurs, but it is unclear how strong such a bond is. I mean, why would suck spirits be servants of a garou tribal incarnae and not a Bastet or Mokolé totem equivalent or other local yet powerful entity. Or are we believing that the 13 tribal totem broods are the only relevant spirit courts all around the world spirits belong to? I mean, Axis Mundi is also a Mage supplement and it certainly delivers this impression with its 13 chapters structure and not going into details of courts for celestines or naming other equivalent courts.

But I don't think this is how the spirit world should work.

Furthermore, Garou are not isolated from one another like human cultures can be. Garou who worship Stag in Persia could still have Moon Bridge access to other septs controlled by Fianna thousands of miles away. It is not even that hard for tribe members from low ranking septs to somehow travel by hopping through different sept Moon Bridges and even regularly attended festivals at Tara in Ireland for the big Fianna get togethers. They have the same access to the Tribal Homelands, and other umbral passage ways like Moon Paths that can connect them together. Likely certain Ancestors that go back thousands of years and therefore the same Ancestor spirit might be in contact with members of the tribe who are very far from each other. Not to mention there have been Concolations of the entire Garou Nation stretching back from thousands of years. Connections can be made by Stone Age Garou that are impossible for contemporary Stone Age humans. The same limits don't apply.

Well, in theory. But in 1230, around the time the newer Dark Age Book is set, the Moon Bridges distance limit is "only" 5000 miles (and only starting at the strongest caerns, which begs some mechanical questions). Also, both caerns need a path stone, which are apparently so hard to come by that septs fought wars over them. I imagine a smaller pseudo-Fianna sept in Shadow Lord territory wouldn't last really long if they had a path stone - for it is valuable and a strategic danger if a lot of Fianna could meet at Silver Tara and then basically teleport in is certainly not lost on Shadowlords, who fear betrayal from each side...
Moon Paths sure are a way, but they are also travel with dangers. I mean, Lune spirits patrol the Moon Paths to protect travels not because all is peachy along the way.
Tribal Homelands are, with the exception of the Children of Gaia one, accessible for Athro plus.
Common ancestors are a way, but still, one would need people with Ancestors background or Rite of summoning.

So, not to say you are wrong about the possibility. But I feel that the further time elapses the more likely it is that a sept far removed from other septs of the tribe would cease to exist, by being culturally assimilated by the tribe dominant in the area or by diverging from the culture of the common ancestors into something of their own. I mean, that is how Bone Gnawer and Glass Walkers eventually emerged.

And sure, there were Concolations, about the end of the Impergium and the consolidation of the tenets of Litany, by condensing all the stories and songs the participants deemed important. But were these meetings that happend ad-hoc? Or did the planning of these meeting take decades or more in planning and did the garou travel to the meeting places possibly for months and months?

Also, there is a qualitative difference between the Dawn Times and the medieval times. If we follow all WoD sources there was a time when Shroud and Gauntlet didn't exist yet and the Dreaming wasn't separated from the material world. Distances might have been a product of imagination back then. But as the Weaver grew stronger, maps cemented human believe which in turn cemented the world how it is today.

It's not that they develop similar institutions independently, or kept certain institutions pure and unchanging from the Stone Age. I agree that would not be plausible, but we don't need to go down that route. We already have all the reasons on why these people actually have contact with one another despite being far distant from each other.

That is what I disagree on. If all the means of the garou were used in this way, then none of the tribe would have had relevant geographical ties. But that is not what Mark came up with all these decades ago, when he created WtA.

I mean the Fianna in Persia scenario is also one that would allow land travel. And while Australia in canon was shielded from the world until the Order of Reason removed that shield the Americas and Africa would have always been areas for garou to settle and keep in touch with their brethren in Europe and central asia. Same for the KotE setting.

But, WtA clearly states that the Hakken developed differently then the Shadowlords, despite the same tribal totem. And the Pure Ones did not have contact with the other tribes either.

Certainly the Irish diaspora (and earlier migrations of Celtic peoples) explains how Fianna from Ireland and Celtic Western Europe would move them and their families around the world. But there is no reason why very early Garou in the ancient stone age could independently join a cult of Stag and learn that there were many other children of Stag and become in contact with them.

If you go back far enough in time, there are no Celtic peoples. The cult of Stag must predate the Celts by thousands of years. The defining culture of the Fianna (or any other tribe) MUST be separate from the human culture of the homids and their kinfolk, even if for historical reasons a particular human culture became dominant among many of its homids. It is actually no different from saying there are Fianna among the French and northern Italians because at one time those areas were Celtic, even though nowadays the homids who live there are Italians or French instead of being a recognizably Celtic people like the Irish, Welsh, or Bretons.

Well, we don't know when which tribe was formally created. This might not even be something one can definitively date.
Fianna legend (at least one of them) tells that the garou who later became Fianna followed the fair folk all the way to Tir Nan Og when humans (and possibly banality) drove them off. But it also tells, iirc, that this process took centuries and several septs along the way remained. These garou would also be Fianna. But my suspension of disbelieve doesn't reach so far as that I would think a Fianna sept have survived in Persia, even if the general area of Mesopotamia might have been the place where the garou who eventually became Fianna started their journey.

The chances that they were culturally assimilated just seems to high in my opinion.

Now for the purposes of keeping continuity and canon, I wouldn't want to make these exception so prevalent that it effectively changes our understanding of the tribes. Those tribes that are often defined by close associations with human cultures should still keep those associations. It's just about opening up enough exceptions that it makes the point the culture of each tribe should be about its Totem and the tribe's devotions around it and its brood, and is not primarily about any human culture. "Fianna" of the Mesolithic, at a time when most of Ireland is buried under glaciers and probably has no Fianna there at all, shouldn't be recognizable as Irish stereotypes, but they should be recognizable as cultic devotees to a Stag god. The fact that many of these Children of Stag will eventually move westwards and take over much of Western Europe doesn't mean other members could stay behind in various other places, or even migrate elsewhere.

I get that. And I could live with that in some degree.

I mean there is the Silver Fangs and from Blood Red Crest to Wyrmfoe there are lots of localised variants to the tribe. Sadly, they are never examined in depth. If one would go and say, there is a small group (like the Siberakh) that shares ancestry with the tribe that became the Fianna, okay. I can get that. I mean the Silver Fang houses also survived... well, some of them.

But the argument would be they share certain aspects, especially since the are followers of the same totem, but still somewhat different. But that is a case I make for any tribe always, because I feel there should be differences between two septs of Fianna, even if both are situated in Ireland, proper. If PCs travel to another sept there should be something interestingly different to what they know from other septs of the same tribe. If the sept is far removed geographically, then the differences should be more apparent (unless the garou settled there only recently and haven't had time to divert from the customs of their home septs, yet).

If W5 made changes in that direction, carefully and logically, I wouldn't mind.

[Ragged Robin]

As a celt I really don't have a problem with fianna being celts on the grounds it's to quote my mate "fucking cool." Just lose the drinking problem while making it clear fianna are distinct from 99% if celts and were good.

[Black Fox]

Actually, I like that it is unclear. It gives more possibilities to the ST.

I don't mind that it is unclear either. I am very pro ST creating their own local variation of the setting to run the type of game they want. I am just saying if that if Justin and others are justifying their disruptive changes to the canonical setting in order to accomplish it, then there is a way to accomplish that while not causing all these changes. Whether that is necessary or not is debatable. Personally I agree with you that it isn't.

[Black Fox]

That is something I find really silly. While it is totally okay for a person from those areas far away from where Fianna normally live to be parent of a Fianna (I mean, they are living their emotions). But to accept that there is a parallel fianna culture that happened to develop without cultural exchange is beyond my suspension of disbelieve.
I totally see how Fianna culture came to America with settlers. Or to Australia. But defining a small Fianna settlement having been far removed from the Fianna, yet develop similarly just for the sake of creating a kind of snowflake character is to much. If I wanted to mix heritages, travelling packs making babies along the way and the like seems enough. Backgrounds/Merits like Ancestors, Spirit Ally and such not withstanding to actually 'teach' a "fish out of the water" the tribal culture...

I am not talking about the homids being Celts. I am talking about homids of whatever local culture still being followers of Stag, and thus recipients of Stag's instructions or requests, and their Garou culture (not the human culture of the homids) being informed by it. A spirit of Stag or its brood should be universal throughout the world. You don't get deer spirits (or rabbit or any other creature that may be part of that brood) acting different in parts of the world because the human culture is different.

Furthermore, Garou are not isolated from one another like human cultures can be. Garou who worship Stag in Persia could still have Moon Bridge access to other septs controlled by Fianna thousands of miles away. It is not even that hard for tribe members from low ranking septs to somehow travel by hopping through different sept Moon Bridges and even regularly attended festivals at Tara in Ireland for the big Fianna get togethers. They have the same access to the Tribal Homelands, and other umbral passage ways like Moon Paths that can connect them together. Likely certain Ancestors that go back thousands of years and therefore the same Ancestor spirit might be in contact with members of the tribe who are very far from each other. Not to mention there have been Concolations of the entire Garou Nation stretching back from thousands of years. Connections can be made by Stone Age Garou that are impossible for contemporary Stone Age humans. The same limits don't apply.

It's not that they develop similar institutions independently, or kept certain institutions pure and unchanging from the Stone Age. I agree that would not be plausible, but we don't need to go down that route. We already have all the reasons on why these people actually have contact with one another despite being far distant from each other.

Certainly the Irish diaspora (and earlier migrations of Celtic peoples) explains how Fianna from Ireland and Celtic Western Europe would move them and their families around the world. But there is no reason why very early Garou in the ancient stone age could independently join a cult of Stag and learn that there were many other children of Stag and become in contact with them.

If you go back far enough in time, there are no Celtic peoples. The cult of Stag must predate the Celts by thousands of years. The defining culture of the Fianna (or any other tribe) MUST be separate from the human culture of the homids and their kinfolk, even if for historical reasons a particular human culture became dominant among many of its homids. It is actually no different from saying there are Fianna among the French and northern Italians because at one time those areas were Celtic, even though nowadays the homids who live there are Italians or French instead of being a recognizably Celtic people like the Irish, Welsh, or Bretons.

Now for the purposes of keeping continuity and canon, I wouldn't want to make these exception so prevalent that it effectively changes our understanding of the tribes. Those tribes that are often defined by close associations with human cultures should still keep those associations. It's just about opening up enough exceptions that it makes the point the culture of each tribe should be about its Totem and the tribe's devotions around it and its brood, and is not primarily about any human culture. "Fianna" of the Mesolithic, at a time when most of Ireland is buried under glaciers and probably has no Fianna there at all, shouldn't be recognizable as Irish stereotypes, but they should be recognizable as cultic devotees to a Stag god. The fact that many of these Children of Stag will eventually move westwards and take over much of Western Europe doesn't mean other members could stay behind in various other places, or even migrate elsewhere.

[heinrich]

There was nothing to prevent a character from having a background of descended from the Silver Fangs but because they were now only Pure Breed 2, they were inducted into the Fianna instead. Or that you were a Lost Cub found first by the Get of Fenris, and they liked you enough to allow you to join and then later in the chronicle you found out that one of your parents was from Bone Gnawer stock.

That is true. However Get of Fenris and one point had the infamous mixed heritage flaw. If the heritage was unknown that might have been a problem, too. Then there was the Rite to determine heritage, that removed some of the possibilities, specifically in W20 when the Rite was moved from Get tribe book to the Core rules as a more general Rite.

It was just that relatively few players or STs used these kind of character concepts.

In our 22 years of LARPing we had several characters that played with this ideas.

Likewise, there really was no problem in saying that besides this strong strain of Fianna on the western edge of Eurasia (that we all know best) there are much smaller - but equally Fianna/Children of Stag - bastions in this valley in Mongolia or along this river in Central Asia, or this National Park in India.

That is something I find really silly. While it is totally okay for a person from those areas far away from where Fianna normally live to be parent of a Fianna (I mean, they are living their emotions). But to accept that there is a parallel fianna culture that happened to develop without cultural exchange is beyond my suspension of disbelieve.
I totally see how Fianna culture came to America with settlers. Or to Australia. But defining a small Fianna settlement having been far removed from the Fianna, yet develop similarly just for the sake of creating a kind of snowflake character is to much. If I wanted to mix heritages, travelling packs making babies along the way and the like seems enough. Backgrounds/Merits like Ancestors, Spirit Ally and such not withstanding to actually 'teach' a "fish out of the water" the tribal culture...

And perhaps qualify or introduce an official stance on certain restrictions being cultural or totemic.

Actually, I like that it is unclear. It gives more possibilities to the ST.
"Sure, we could bring this guy into the tribe. He seems to know our ways well enough. But we won't. Why? Don't you remember when my grand father was this sept's Master of the Rite he brought in a guy who was equally in tune with out culture. In a daring invocation he persuaded to tribal totem not to intervene and the Rite of Passage was successful - but only a decade later that garou danced the Spiral and his betrayal cost the lives of two packs. The sept needed decades to recover. And that is why. We don't repeat out mistakes."

As a LARP ST I occasionally have players who want to play lost cubs without the baptism of fire and therefore not tribe claiming them at the beginning of their character game. And I repeatedly have to tell the players of those garou of rank, especially the sept offices, that they can't just start a Rite of Passage and see what totem picks the cub, for various reasons.
Tribal totems aren't omnipresent or all-perceiving. If you invoke the Rite of Passage and call upon multiple tribal totems for you might offend them.
It is up to the garou to educate the lost cubs and that includes to tell them about the tribes and make a decision or let the cub make a decision to what tribe it wants to try to join. But in any case the garou of rank owe their tribemates and tribal totems due diligence when it come to new members. That holds true for the Rite of Passage just as it holds true for the Rite of Adoption.

[Black Fox]

I generally feel the issue is that players are expected to not understand this and so everything is now open because it is easier than showing examples of tribe switching.

Perhaps, but then all that is needed is probably one additional paragraph in a relevant section of the corebook. It doesn't take that much space to explain. Character examples elsewhere would just be examples calling out that section.

[Ana Mizuki]

I think part of the problem is that the readers are humans. All the readers are going to have some level of familiarity with how we visually describe people, and most readers are going to be able to interpret a bunch of cultural cues in a visual description of a person. Most people aren't students of lupine communication in the same way. If I described a wolf as seeming to always have his tail up in excitement but canted slightly to the left, can I trust my readers to know what that says about their personality, or do I need to explain it? Do I have room to explain it for every character I describe given writing NPCs in TTRPG books tends to come with a strict word budget?

From an accessibility standpoint, describing non-human forms is extremely difficult to find the sweet spot between too little information to the point of it feeling pointless and redundant (esp. with wild wolves where coat variance is very subtle for the most part), and too much information where I'm basically including a 20 page primer on canine body posture interpretation in the middle of a game a lot of people just want to pick up and play.

Personally, I would love to see more about wolf behavioral cues in the books because I'd rather describe my wolf-shifters in a more natural fashion while playing and know the other players will understand what it means, instead of having to just say, "The lighter than average classic coated timber wolf's posture looks pensive."

But I do get why a book meant for a wider audience doesn't cater to that.

Honestly, I get that. My issue was mostly that there was -nothing- in the description section on the wolf form. Like, just "She is a black wolf" is entirely fine. Forsaken 2nd ed adds a short desc and that is okay.


Also, yes, it is great seeing people be more open to playing lupus. Though if the lupus breed is a sidebar in the character creation section, we might have an issue.

[Ana Mizuki]

Therefore if you want to show that tribes are cultic devotions to specific Incarna and that actual genetic lineage is less important, you don't need to do anything to change the setting except... include more character examples that are like that. And perhaps qualify or introduce an official stance on certain restrictions being cultural or totemic. That would accomplish the same ostensible objectives while not invalidating canon.

I generally feel the issue is that players are expected to not understand this and so everything is now open because it is easier than showing examples of tribe switching.

[Heavy Arms]

My statements are more venting frustration that our niche game of being a werewolf isn't being catered to because the lead designer and IP holder doesn't care to do. I have nowhere to go to be mad expect screaming into a void. So, we are here now.

Sorry for not being more direct. That post was specifically in response to Ana Mizuki's post right above it, not yours.

This might be just my own pet peeves, but if a character in a -werewolf- book where the werewolves have 5 forms has only a description of 2/5 of the forms, I feel they could have been a mage NPC and such. But this is just me liking the wolf aspect more XD

I think part of the problem is that the readers are humans. All the readers are going to have some level of familiarity with how we visually describe people, and most readers are going to be able to interpret a bunch of cultural cues in a visual description of a person. Most people aren't students of lupine communication in the same way. If I described a wolf as seeming to always have his tail up in excitement but canted slightly to the left, can I trust my readers to know what that says about their personality, or do I need to explain it? Do I have room to explain it for every character I describe given writing NPCs in TTRPG books tends to come with a strict word budget?

From an accessibility standpoint, describing non-human forms is extremely difficult to find the sweet spot between too little information to the point of it feeling pointless and redundant (esp. with wild wolves where coat variance is very subtle for the most part), and too much information where I'm basically including a 20 page primer on canine body posture interpretation in the middle of a game a lot of people just want to pick up and play.

Personally, I would love to see more about wolf behavioral cues in the books because I'd rather describe my wolf-shifters in a more natural fashion while playing and know the other players will understand what it means, instead of having to just say, "The lighter than average classic coated timber wolf's posture looks pensive."

But I do get why a book meant for a wider audience doesn't cater to that.

I know, but it amuses me how -lupus- is the legacy thing kept when even on this forum you get people demanding any lupus player to play basically a realistic wolf who cannot speak a human language to even play one. And then he does nothing with it even though a reboot would be a GREAT chance to adjust the breed.

I would like to think the "stop making playing lupus so hard," crowd at least on this forum has gotten a bit more mainstream in how to approach the game. The last few threads seem to have gone in our favor.

Though I doubt W5 is going to help if it goes too far into, "just play humans in wolf shapes."

This is assuming they want any tribe to be that tied to the idea of lupus: Remember, the whole concept is that ANYONE can be a member of ANY tribe. So having Red Talons be flagged as lupus would go against it.

I think the idea is more that lupus Garou are would be more inclined to join this version of the Talons than other Tribes via being born a wolf, while human born Garou can now join the Tribe by feeling a strong connection to the Tribe's spiritual identity... though I really have no idea what that identity is at this point.

[Black Fox]

Remember, the whole concept is that ANYONE can be a member of ANY tribe.

This was pretty much true in the original incarnation of the game as well PROVIDED the totem accepts you. While Garou do have actual ancestral lineages that wasn't what determined one's tribe. There was early lore that most tribes would accept any Lost Cubs they found because they were desperate for new members, and that sometimes this would lead to conflicts between septs and tribes as they fought over who would claim/control those cubs. And the game always had rejects from certain tribes who had to join other tribes.

It is just that certain totems had specific criteria that would cause them to automatically or conditionally reject certain Garou. Griffin would not accept any homids - dead stop, no exceptions. Fenris would not accept any Garou who was cowardly in any way.

It was just unclear whether certain requirements were a result of the totem or whether the tribal culture caused the rejections. Would Pegasus not accept male homids and lupus, or was it just because the Furies wouldn't allow it? Was the need for Pure Breed 3 a requirement of Falcon or Silver Fang culture? If a Garou was phycially puny but not cowardly, would Fenris reject the runt or is it the Get who would kick him out? Did you really need to have Native American ancestry to be accepted by the Wendigo spirit, or is that more a cultural thing within the tribe? Different STs would come down on different sides.

There was nothing to prevent a character from having a background of descended from the Silver Fangs but because they were now only Pure Breed 2, they were inducted into the Fianna instead. Or that you were a Lost Cub found first by the Get of Fenris, and they liked you enough to allow you to join and then later in the chronicle you found out that one of your parents was from Bone Gnawer stock. It was just that relatively few players or STs used these kind of character concepts. Likewise, there really was no problem in saying that besides this strong strain of Fianna on the western edge of Eurasia (that we all know best) there are much smaller - but equally Fianna/Children of Stag - bastions in this valley in Mongolia or along this river in Central Asia, or this National Park in India.

Therefore if you want to show that tribes are cultic devotions to specific Incarna and that actual genetic lineage is less important, you don't need to do anything to change the setting except... include more character examples that are like that. And perhaps qualify or introduce an official stance on certain restrictions being cultural or totemic. That would accomplish the same ostensible objectives while not invalidating canon.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

This is assuming they want any tribe to be that tied to the idea of lupus: Remember, the whole concept is that ANYONE can be a member of ANY tribe. So having Red Talons be flagged as lupus would go against it.

FLAGRANT WORLD ERROR

Setting Over. Ruin = Very Yes.