The Followers of Set as an enemy faction in Werewolf

[Black Fox]

It's alright. For some people a discussion of "True Faith" in regards to Set is relevant. I personally despise the notion that a character could have True Faith for Set, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Lucifer, or other entities. Unless it is a real world religion where folklore or pop culture demonstrates the equivalent of "I hold up the cross to repel the vampire", I don't think True Faith applies. For a lot of religions, their supposed supernatural powers would be better simulated with appropriate Paths of Sorcery, Numina, or certain Merits. But plenty of other people have other ideas and will use these concepts in ways that make sense to them. Whatever works for their games (and yours).

(Personally, I don't think True Faith makes sense for Ambrosio Moncada either. The idea that Moncada developed the Path of Night as a result of reconciling his existence and True Faith does have a perverse logic to it. But Moncada does not actually follow the Path of Night. He is on the Path of Power and Inner Voice. The idea you can somehow develop another Path that you don't follow yourself is counterintuitive to me. And while a power hungry man climbing the social ladder makes sense for both a certain kind of Medieval Bishop and a Lasombra, it is pretty much the opposite stance of someone who has True Faith. I find this kind of talk to be from people who like to slam together cool ideas and popular characters, but don't bother to wonder if it actually makes sense.)

[voidshaper]

Hmm, Ambrosio is maybe the closest to what I was looking for. Thank you!

Apologies to Black Fox for the slight derail, but the question about TF for Followers of Apophis is maybe not completely irrelevant.

[Shadeprowler]

I can't recall any instance of an NPC antagonist who serves an unambiguously 'evil' side having True Faith

Ambrosio Luis Monçada?
In his eyes the Embrace had been God's will, and through the instrument of the Curse of Caine, Monçada had all eternity to do the Lord's work. His faith never wavered, but it has evolved into something dark and terrible, a strong belief in Monçada's own damnation and a determination to earn that fate
The archbishop belived, with an unshakeable faith, in redemption and the Resurrection. He simply realised, with an abiding resignation, that there is no salvation for him or his kind, and as God has seen fit to damn him thus, it is his duty to earn that damnation as best he might.
Indeed, many Cainite scholars lay the development of the Path of Night squarely at Monçada's feet, a tribute to both his faith and his influence over others of his clan.
Monçada's ambition, faith, ruthlessness, comninde with his wast knowledge of Abyss mysticism and firm belief God damned him so he must be the best of the Damned?
I think it is safe to say, he was on the "Evil" side.
Because it was the Lord's will of course

Ferox is a nother nice example; known by some as the Rock Lord, is an albino Gargoyle believing himself to be a fallen angel who strives for redemption by destroying the "tainted" Nosferatu. Ferox views all other Kindred as the spawns of Satan that must be destroyed, however, he is also willing to show a penitent vampire the way back to God's grace. The only exceptions to this are Nosferatu, whom he despises and will go to lengths to destroy them. He works on coming into contact with the Catholic Church and aids them in the destruction of supernaturals when he can.
He not belives himself evil, persee, but from the rest of the world? He IS. So in that regard, he is on the Evil side. While belives himself Good.
Anakin Skywalker-light

Giotto Verducci the Baali leader of the Abbey of Mount Zion from Fountain of Bright Crimson maybe?
Tho' I'm not sure that one to be honest... I will check that one when I'm home. But he probably not have True Faith

[voidshaper]

Knowledge, Belief, and Faith are three different things
Knowledge is evidence-based, but faith isn't.
Belief also doesn’t require evidence... bur sometimes not even faith

I get that, and the question whether knowledge can disrupt faith isn't one I'm looking to discuss- it's probably a better topic for a night out with friends and some beers. My question is more about a limitation by game mechanics; or a prerequisite:

Niman genuinely believes Set to be the good guy

I think this is the crux. Does True Faith require the conviction that whatever entity or concept you have faith in is a 'good' or even 'right' thing? I personally don't think so, but the books seem to at least assume it. I can't recall any instance of an NPC antagonist who serves an unambiguously 'evil' side having True Faith, but I don't remember any rule that contradicts the idea of, say, a BSD having True Faith in the Wyrm, or a Nephandus in the Outer Gods, a Nergali Baali in the Devil either. I feel like I'm missing some rule or clarification about that.

[Shadeprowler]

True Faith is a tricky one, especially when it comes to the Baali or the Followers of Set - who were known as the Clan of Faith or - to an extent, the Sebettu from Demon: the Fallen (three groups who are very close to their 'God" - to a point, they have met their creator/God personally)

From the V20 Dark Ages Tome of Secrets:

"Druidism, Christianity, Hinduism — even belief in “the power of love” — are all eligible as expressions of True Faith, and the Storyteller should work to keep the game mechanic free of his or her own beliefs. Nor should anyone at the table dictate how belief is expressed: Supplication, celebration, and ownership are all valid ways to express True Faith."

"Example: Niman, Follower of Set
Destanny plays Niman, a Follower of Set. She wants Niman to have True Faith in Set, whom he believes to be a god rebelling against the oppressor Ra. Niman has never met Set (faith precludes knowledge), and Niman genuinely believes Set to be the good guy in the battle against Ra (True Faith resists evil). Destanny’s Storyteller can definitely work with this, so he approves the trait.
The situation changes if Niman ever meets Set.
Now he knows Set exists — the Ancient’s existence has moved from faith to knowledge. But does that automatically mean Niman can no longer have faith in Set as a god? This is a test of faith, and it makes the story all the more interesting.
Does Niman retain his faith, blind to the fact that Set is an Antediluvian rather than a god? Or does knowledge seep in and erode his faith?
Both are valid answers as Destanny and her Storyteller craft the story of Niman.

Knowledge, Belief, and Faith are three different things
Knowledge is evidence-based, but faith isn't.
Belief also doesn’t require evidence... bur sometimes not even faith
One might say knowledge is the death of Faith even...
But this is such a loaded question I'm not sure it would be wise to discuss on the Forum
So I would say, the answer in my humble opinion lies between somewhere in these lines:

“Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.”
― Sir Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad

[Shadeprowler]

Forum duplicate

[voidshaper]

So, while sketching out some bullet points to make the Amkhat a little more interesting I realized I could skip a lot of bookkeeping by simply treating their Corruption stat as a form of devotion and have it act like True Faith to get most of the effects I wanted, without having to bother with Edges or extra powers. I know it's supposed to be very rare, but I don't care that much about it for NPC antagonists.

However: I don't recall seeing any example of someone with True Faith who follows Set, Apophis, Oblivion, or the Wyrm. I think there's one Garou with True Faith in Gaia? Especially for Set and other self-styled gods this strikes me as strange - I can't even remember whether the clan book addressed this at all. Is this just something that doesn't happen? Or does anyone have examples?

[Black Fox]

I like the idea of some kind of connection between those two groups. Given the supposed age of the Amkhat, I'd probably rule that the original members of the Eaters of the Dead camp somehow infiltrated or spied on the Amkhat, and decided to try to replicate their rites and lead to the creation of the Rite of Dormant Wisdom. It's the "Let's use the weapon of the enemy against him" logic. That probably happened some time after Set cursed the tribe, and the Eaters of the Dead originally hoped to use it against Setite vampires to either take revenge on Set or figure out a way to undo the curse.

The Rite of Dormant Wisdom is somehow linked to the Urge Wyrm of Fear, so it is clearly a variant of whatever the Amkhat do. They hoped to create a non Wyrm tainted version, but didn't quite succeed.

[voidshaper]

the Silent Strider's Eaters of The Dead camp

Ooh, I completely forgot about that, nice catch. I too thought the Amkhat would make a good Herd substitute Background for Nagaraja, as long as they can avoid becoming a rare delicacy.

[Shadeprowler]

I alwas suspected (but no canon informatin regarding that), the Amkhat (Corpse-eater), the mortal cannibal cult that gains strength from those they consume and that have existed since the time of the first Pharaohs and the Silent Strider's Eaters of The Dead camp are either have a connection, know each other, allies, or rivals... (a Nagaraja, an Amkhat-member and an Eater could have hell of a friendship thats for sure...)
The scary thing in the Amkhat is, most of the Amkhata are ordinary humans, complete with families and ties that would make their sudden disappearence suspicious.

[voidshaper]

I know very little about Mummy: the Resurrection so the Amkhat is a new concept for me. But I agree that they would make a great mortal cult that would be part of this faction. It sounds like something Set might have set up himself to go after the Horus mummies once he realized they were multiplying. But he may have lost contact with them during one of his periods of torpor, and now they are independent with their own unique rites to Apophis.

They should still display the "blood, sex, and snakes" sign that marks them as part of the children of Apophis - heavily Egyptian themed, but still distinct from actual Egyptian mythology. Maybe some of their cells have some contact with other members of the faction. Since vampires are always prone to take something over through embracing people or blood-slavery, I'd probably make their contact one of the Bane Mummies - perhaps that "mastermind" Bane Mummy.

Whenever I have a new group of ordinary humans who end up having supernatural powers, I either turn to the Sorcerer books or make them fomori. (I have a more expansive view of fomori than WoD usually takes which emphasizes the gross out aspects of splatterpunk and body horror - I have no problem with fomori looking like ordinary humans as needed.) I don't know what powers the Amkhat supposedly get from the various cannibalisms. But there are plenty of fomori powers that could be assigned as a temporary basis before they fade (I am assuming such powers are not permanent for the Amkhat. Correct me if I am wrong.)

The cult is described as old, but has no given origin story or age, but it is hinted that Osiris himself knew about them back when. They are very blood, sex & snakes in private (complete with BBQ orgies), while keeping a Joe Average disguise in public. Their relationship with Set - or any other supernaturals other than Mummies - isn't discussed either, so they should be fairly moldable.
Without reprinting the rules: they can gain an Attribute buff or knowledge from consuming a corresponding part of a body (eat the hands to gain Dex, eat the eyes for insight) which lasts somewhere between a day and a year depending on successes on a Sta + Occult roll vs 8, while also gaining a corruption stat. Mummies are a favorite snack, because their eternal essence forgoes the duration roll and makes the buff permanent.
Fomori powers should be fine as a replacement or supplement to that, as written the power is both difficult to gain and not very potent. The reason I gravitate towards Hunter Edges is because they are easy to apply and grant immunities to various powers of supernaturals, in addition to Imbued being explicitly not supernatural.

[Black Fox]

While looking into possible ideas for cults around Apep I stumbled over the Amkhat in MtR, a cult that has discovered a way to gain power from cannibalism. The cult doesn't have much depth to it as written, but I liked the idea of mortals that go on a hunt for supernaturals with a dark background- especially for a WtA game.

I know very little about Mummy: the Resurrection so the Amkhat is a new concept for me. But I agree that they would make a great mortal cult that would be part of this faction. It sounds like something Set might have set up himself to go after the Horus mummies once he realized they were multiplying. But he may have lost contact with them during one of his periods of torpor, and now they are independent with their own unique rites to Apophis.

They should still display the "blood, sex, and snakes" sign that marks them as part of the children of Apophis - heavily Egyptian themed, but still distinct from actual Egyptian mythology. Maybe some of their cells have some contact with other members of the faction. Since vampires are always prone to take something over through embracing people or blood-slavery, I'd probably make their contact one of the Bane Mummies - perhaps that "mastermind" Bane Mummy.

Whenever I have a new group of ordinary humans who end up having supernatural powers, I either turn to the Sorcerer books or make them fomori. (I have a more expansive view of fomori than WoD usually takes which emphasizes the gross out aspects of splatterpunk and body horror - I have no problem with fomori looking like ordinary humans as needed.) I don't know what powers the Amkhat supposedly get from the various cannibalisms. But there are plenty of fomori powers that could be assigned as a temporary basis before they fade (I am assuming such powers are not permanent for the Amkhat. Correct me if I am wrong.)

[Black Fox]

I think for most werewolves, when it comes to vampires, a vampire is a vampire is a vampire. They're not going to care what clan the vampire claims to be a part of, and it generally isn't going to matter much.

I actually agree that clan is irrelevant to the Garou. But I do think the Setites are different - not because they are their own clan, but because they are a Wyrm cult. It just happens to be a Wyrm cult that is stacked with vampires as opposed to being a Wyrm cult of only humans. Most vampires - even though considered to be a Wyrm minion - aren't involved in a Wyrm cult. And even though some vampires are part of a Wyrm cult, there is something different about the Setites.

This particular Wyrm cult is known to have lasted thousands of years, produced a terrible curse on an entire Garou tribe, created the Bane Mummies, make fomori, summon Banes, and has enacted other atrocities. I think that attracts attention in a different way than just random Joe vampire. They are a distinct menace that is distinguished from vampires in general.

I mentioned the other non-Egyptian themed cults because I wondered if there was an opportunity to provide other tribes a "hook" to make the fight more personal in the way it is for the Silent Striders. My thinking is that it may be possible for a Get of Fenris to think this Wyrm cult is only a problem in Egypt or in decadent cities, but he might have a very different opinion about the Hall of Jormungandr because he views that as a more immediate threat. And so on with the other tribes. Then the question becomes whether the Garou understands these different Wyrm cults are in fact the same cult. And if so, how does that change their view of the Setites overall.

As far as I know there is no canon connecting these other groups to werewolves. So this is simply a brainstorming exercise.

It is perfectly fine for some or all of these Setite groups to have escaped detection by the Garou. Or if they were found, to simply be dismissed as a one-off local threat that is now gone. But I think there is potential for STs to do more with. And I like the idea that maybe some Garou have tied at least one of these groups to the main Wyrm cult, but others are still unknown or thought to be its own thing.

[voidshaper]

While looking into possible ideas for cults around Apep I stumbled over the Amkhat in MtR, a cult that has discovered a way to gain power from cannibalism. The cult doesn't have much depth to it as written, but I liked the idea of mortals that go on a hunt for supernaturals with a dark background- especially for a WtA game. Initially I thought this could make a good cult for Amam the Devourer (and maybe it does), but the longer I thought about it, the more I liked the idea of Mortals who are really, really scary™ to just about any supernatural out there. This could combine with Skindancers, maybe a Revenant line, Fomori etc., but I think something like Apep-Imbued Hunters could be really good - monstrous, but plain human.

Edit: The 'humans as monsters' theme often gets a bit overshadowed by 'monsters as monsters' in the WoD, that's probably why this faction appeals to me as an idea.

[AnubisXy]

I also wonder about how some of the Setite cults who don't use Egyptian or Set themes are seen by the Garou. Canonically we have the Hall of Jormungandr in Scandinavia who would be obvious foes of the Get of Fenris. We also have the Tlacique of Mesoamerica. The Uktena might see them as a specific danger to their people. Then there are the Witches of Echidna - do the Black Furies know about them? Do the various tribal camps that involve Christianity and particularly the Catholic Church know about the the Church of the Black Magdalene and still see its activities in the modern day? What have I missed that might attract the particular attention of a specific tribe (or camp)?

I think for most werewolves, when it comes to vampires, a vampire is a vampire is a vampire. They're not going to care what clan the vampire claims to be a part of, and it generally isn't going to matter much. The Silent Striders are probably the only tribe that would take an interest in distinguishing whether a particular vampire is a Follower of Set or not, but even then it's probably not going to make much of a difference in the way the Silent Strider deals with that particular vampire. There might be a couple of Striders that undertake a deep study of the Followers of Set and have managed to piece together the fact that those groups are part of the Followers of Set, but it's definitely not something that will be common knowledge even among the Striders, let alone the rest of Garou Nation.