Get of Fenris in 5E.

[Psicose]

So, maybe many already know, but that table was released where it showed the arrangement of the Garou tribes in the fifth edition, for those who didn't know, here's a link to the image:

https://s3-eu-north-1.amazonaws.com/pdx-campaign-wp-data/uploads/sites/10/2022/10/03105504/werewolf_tribes.png?utm_source=website&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=worldofdarkness&utm_content=button

Also the original page: https://www.worldofdarkness.com/news...mevrfChvHtZC2k

One detail that I couldn't help noticing was the absence of Get of Fenrir, I already imagined the others, but in this case I was kind of taken by surprise, anyway, my question is that according to some, this was a progression of history since the Fenrir were willing to fight to the end during the apocalypse so they were the first tribe to go extinct, this even makes sense, but I've also read that others believe that the departure of the GoF is because how WoD is turning out more popular they wanted to avoid the controversies that would come about this tribe, so I wanted an opinion just to know more or less what I should expect.

[AnubisXy]

According what we know, the Get of Fenris have fallen into "Haglust" which is sort of the opposite of Harano. It's basically like a permanent psuedo-frenzy. They're obsessed with fighting and destroying the Wyrm and trying to save Gaia or get revenge for her, to the point that they're willing to kill other werewolves. So the Get of Fenris are basically an NPC only tribe now and no longer permitted to be player characters. Also, the Stargazers left, they're gone, we don't know what happened to them, so they're not around either anymore and also won't have support for player characters.

The leading theory as to why the GoF were moved over to being NPCs because at one point they had a lodge of neo-Nazi members. The tribe hunted down the Swords of Heimdall and killed all of them in earlier editions, but the game designers are still uncomfortable allowing a tribe with that sort of history to be played at the gaming table, so they're NPC enemies now. The Stargazers are out because... I don't know. I haven't seen any guesses that sound particularly good, so your guess is as good as mine.

[Father Enoch]

Maybe the absence of the Stargazers has something to do with this: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/St...#Modern_Nights.

[Psicose]

According what we know, the Get of Fenris have fallen into "Haglust" which is sort of the opposite of Harano. It's basically like a permanent psuedo-frenzy. They're obsessed with fighting and destroying the Wyrm and trying to save Gaia or get revenge for her, to the point that they're willing to kill other werewolves. So the Get of Fenris are basically an NPC only tribe now and no longer permitted to be player characters. Also, the Stargazers left, they're gone, we don't know what happened to them, so they're not around either anymore and also won't have support for player characters.

The leading theory as to why the GoF were moved over to being NPCs because at one point they had a lodge of neo-Nazi members. The tribe hunted down the Swords of Heimdall and killed all of them in earlier editions, but the game designers are still uncomfortable allowing a tribe with that sort of history to be played at the gaming table, so they're NPC enemies now. The Stargazers are out because... I don't know. I haven't seen any guesses that sound particularly good, so your guess is as good as mine.

About the Stargazers, they abandoned the Garou nation to join the council of east, i only don't know why, but I heard this was because they were a impopular tribe, I never heard about someone that liked then, but I also don't know if a I belive it.

[Ragged Robin]

The leading theory as to why the GoF were moved over to being NPCs because at one point they had a lodge of neo-Nazi members. The tribe hunted down the Swords of Heimdall and killed all of them in earlier editions, but the game designers are still uncomfortable allowing a tribe with that sort of history to be played at the gaming table, so they're NPC enemies now. The Stargazers are out because... I don't know. I haven't seen any guesses that sound particularly good, so your guess is as good as mine.

Which is pretty funny considering all the tribes had a nasty camp but the get where the only guys who opened up and cleaned house.

Moral of story-dont try and resolve institutional corruption.

[Heavy Arms]

That... isn't really accurate though. Plenty of the other Tribes cleaned house in Revised, not just the Get. As well, a lot of the "nasty Camps" were underground as it was. Whether or not it's really why the Get were cut from playable status in W5, their big problem was it took them until 2000 to clean house of a group of Nazis in their midst who were not some hidden evil Camp like the Maneaters. The Swords were pretty much the only nasty camp that advocated obvious and overtly evil human ideologies, that could be open about their affiliation and expect to be accepted within their Tribe and shielded from other Tribes

[Ragged Robin]

That... isn't really accurate though. Plenty of the other Tribes cleaned house in Revised, not just the Get. As well, a lot of the "nasty Camps" were underground as it was. Whether or not it's really why the Get were cut from playable status in W5, their big problem was it took them until 2000 to clean house of a group of Nazis in their midst who were not some hidden evil Camp like the Maneaters. The Swords were pretty much the only nasty camp that advocated obvious and overtly evil human ideologies, that could be open about their affiliation and expect to be accepted within their Tribe and shielded from other Tribes

I honestly cannot recall which camps got purged but I'll take your word for it. That's not really true I terms of human outlooks. Plenty of the camps had nasty human outlooks the red talon one was built on torture, the silver fang on built on institutional corruption the glass walker one of posthumanism gone mad and one based on the mafia they often don't really tie with direct equivelant but that hardly makes then less alarming or repulsive.

I'm unsure how them doing it in 2000 makes a difference to them doing it in 84 or 2012. The issue its purged and their was push back in tribe as far back as 43.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Nasty camps are a good thing. One of my players going against the raptors as a silver fang was awesome. It's good for every tribe to have a camp that represents the ideology gone too far.

Hiemdall... isn't well done. There's no redeeming features, there's no sense that they're invested in werewolf politics rather than human ideas, they're just cartoonishly evil. There's a lot of room for a better Get nasty camp. Something more related to werewolves, like a garou-as-warrior cult where they're extremely hurtful towards less active or less militant members of the nation.


But the Get of Fenrir as a whole? No other tribe exemplifies the Garou caricature so well. If the nation only had one tribe, they'd be my pick.

[Ragged Robin]

Nasty camps are a good thing. One of my players going against the raptors as a silver fang was awesome. It's good for every tribe to have a camp that represents the ideology gone too far.

Hiemdall... isn't well done. There's no redeeming features, there's no sense that they're invested in werewolf politics rather than human ideas, they're just cartoonishly evil. There's a lot of room for a better Get nasty camp. Something more related to werewolves, like a garou-as-warrior cult where they're extremely hurtful towards less active or less militant members of the nation.


But the Get of Fenrir as a whole? No other tribe exemplifies the Garou caricature so well. If the nation only had one tribe, they'd be my pick.

Thats fair he way I'd do the swords is they'd be more of a general supremacist movement like the pure tribe front forsaken, they'd support human supremacist movements genrally rather than german one's but overalltying in with a emphasis on werewolf supremacy. Just as keen on nation of Islam as skinheads

[Heavy Arms]

That's not really true I terms of human outlooks.

It's not just the outlooks, but the total status within their Tribes and the Garou nation.

Plenty of the camps had nasty human outlooks the red talon one was built on torture, the silver fang on built on institutional corruption the glass walker one of posthumanism gone mad and one based on the mafia they often don't really tie with direct equivelant but that hardly makes then less alarming or repulsive.

The Dying Cubs of the Red Talons are a secret and not accepted; even the openly genocidal Lodge of the Predator Kings that want to wipe humanity out completely consider The Dying Cubs to be off the deep end (again, the Red Talon Camp of "humanity had its chance, time to end humanity" thinks the "lets torture humans" Camp is beyond the pale). The Red Talons wouldn't accept open affiliation with The Dying Cubs, nor defend them from other Garou.

The Grey Raptors are, again, a secret. They're tolerated within the Royalist faction of the Silver Fangs, but none of them would openly admit such a group exists. A Grey Raptor that's open about being a Grey Raptor is one that's going to get assassinated by the rest of the Camp before anyone else has a chance to look into it.

The Cyberwolves were purged in Revised after their experiments went too far; though it's not really some blatantly evil thing to experiment with transhumnism and cybernetics. They just got hella unethical about it. The Wise Guys are still accepted parts of the Glass Walkers, but mostly because they're largely going away on their own. The Corporate Wolves and City Farmers have thoroughly displaced The Wise Guys within the Tribe's leadership, as organized mafia style crime is outdated for the most cutting edge of Tribes.

I'm unsure how them doing it in 2000 makes a difference to them doing it in 84 or 2012. The issue its purged and their was push back in tribe as far back as 43.

The difference is that it's an out-of-universe retcon that moved the Swords from tolerated extremists to despised radicals that crossed one to many lines and got purged for it. ff the Swords were an evil the mainstream Get were trying to get rid of before the setting of the game started, when it finally got finished wouldn't really matter. It's that 2000 was when the Swords suddenly went from accepted-if-extreme members of the Tribe to suddenly being hated and targets of a purge. At least The Cyberwolves were given a decent metaplot reason for why they went from tolerated to not so quickly (10 dead lupus in a Tribe with so few wolf-born in the first place because how extreme their experiments were going finally couldn't be hidden any more). The Get just switched because the authors realized it was a bad look to have the earlier take on the Swords remain.

[Psicose]

That... isn't really accurate though. Plenty of the other Tribes cleaned house in Revised, not just the Get. As well, a lot of the "nasty Camps" were underground as it was. Whether or not it's really why the Get were cut from playable status in W5, their big problem was it took them until 2000 to clean house of a group of Nazis in their midst who were not some hidden evil Camp like the Maneaters. The Swords were pretty much the only nasty camp that advocated obvious and overtly evil human ideologies, that could be open about their affiliation and expect to be accepted within their Tribe and shielded from other Tribes

What are the Stargazers nast camp?

[Shadeprowler]

What are the Stargazers nast camp?

The Ana-gamin are a near mythical group that are rumored to kidnap and indoctrinate promising Stargazers. They are said to roam the Umbra, searching for a way to sever the earthly connections of all Stargazers to allow their Tribe to wander the Umbra in its entirety.

The followers of the Metastic Birth believe that the Wyrm is not imprisoned. Rather, it has cocooned itself and awaits its metamorphosis. Followers of the Camp believe that the Garou should prepare to survive the Apocalypse to experience the new world once the Wyrm has finally been transformed, not try to fight the process.

The Ouroboroans seek the free the ancient Wyrm of Balance from the Pattern Web. To do this, they strike at concentrations of Weaver power, search out forgotten Wyrm entities and seek ways into Malfeas. Only by following the Wyrm to its cave, rather than fighting its minions, do they feel they may truly influence the outcome of the Final War.

Among these three maybe the Ana-gamin, but the other two are while not "nasty" perse, are could be seen as dangerous

[Ragged Robin]

It's not just the outlooks, but the total status within their Tribes and the Garou nation.



The Dying Cubs of the Red Talons are a secret and not accepted; even the openly genocidal Lodge of the Predator Kings that want to wipe humanity out completely consider The Dying Cubs to be off the deep end (again, the Red Talon Camp of "humanity had its chance, time to end humanity" thinks the "lets torture humans" Camp is beyond the pale). The Red Talons wouldn't accept open affiliation with The Dying Cubs, nor defend them from other Garou.

The Grey Raptors are, again, a secret. They're tolerated within the Royalist faction of the Silver Fangs, but none of them would openly admit such a group exists. A Grey Raptor that's open about being a Grey Raptor is one that's going to get assassinated by the rest of the Camp before anyone else has a chance to look into it.

The Cyberwolves were purged in Revised after their experiments went too far; though it's not really some blatantly evil thing to experiment with transhumnism and cybernetics. They just got hella unethical about it. The Wise Guys are still accepted parts of the Glass Walkers, but mostly because they're largely going away on their own. The Corporate Wolves and City Farmers have thoroughly displaced The Wise Guys within the Tribe's leadership, as organized mafia style crime is outdated for the most cutting edge of Tribes.



The difference is that it's an out-of-universe retcon that moved the Swords from tolerated extremists to despised radicals that crossed one to many lines and got purged for it. ff the Swords were an evil the mainstream Get were trying to get rid of before the setting of the game started, when it finally got finished wouldn't really matter. It's that 2000 was when the Swords suddenly went from accepted-if-extreme members of the Tribe to suddenly being hated and targets of a purge. At least The Cyberwolves were given a decent metaplot reason for why they went from tolerated to not so quickly (10 dead lupus in a Tribe with so few wolf-born in the first place because how extreme their experiments were going finally couldn't be hidden any more). The Get just switched because the authors realized it was a bad look to have the earlier take on the Swords remain.

That's not really true, get ideology while often extreme isn't nazism.

the secret aspect isnt really a positive if anything it feeds into the other tribes unwillingness to be public about internal problems.

I don't really have a problem with the retcon although it's a pretty soft retcon since their was in tribe pushback from 2nd at least.

[voidshaper]

About the Stargazers, they abandoned the Garou nation to join the council of east, i only don't know why, but I heard this was because they were a impopular tribe, I never heard about someone that liked then, but I also don't know if a I belive it.

Stargazers started out as a Karate Kid pastiche with all the far-east 90s weeb orientalism attached, but they got somewhat fixed over the editions. They seem to work better as loner characters or in mixed splat chronicles, something they share to a degree with the Striders. I have a player whose SG character predates the split from the Nation, and from an in-game perspective, it actually felt like a pretty natural decision for the Tribe.

The Garou Nation as an organizational entity is woefully defunct, dead-locked by inter-tribal squabbles and ego issues. The Hengeyokai aren't exempt from harmful internal politics, but much better than the Nation in providing the benefits of an organizational super-structure that the Stargazers desperately needed.

[Ana Mizuki]

The Hengeyokai aren't exempt from harmful internal politics, but much better than the Nation in providing the benefits of an organizational super-structure that the Stargazers desperately needed.

As much as that is true, in the revised Gazer tribebook it is made very clear that the Hengeyokai see the Stargazers like the Stargazers saw the other garou tribes. As uncouth barbarians. Basically, the Beast Courts will treat the Gazers as guests, sure. But they will not give them any REAL jobs, as the Gazers just aren't civilized enough for that.

And given what I know of the Beast Courts' human countries, that tracks.

As for the topic of this thread; The Fenrir were removed mostly due to Paradox getting its fingers burned by the messes in V5. The playtest and its VERY sus ready-made character and the homophobic purges in Chechnya were stated to be a Vampire plot. Essentially, they wanted to risk no further controversy. Since the Fenrir tribal symbol IS hinting at something (because no way the tribe was designed with a symbol of PEACE in mind) and there have been players who vocally were for the nazi ideals... It was not worth the risk.