Get of Fenris in 5E.

[Father Enoch]

Personally I suspect public awareness of the issues has increased rather than anything else and their power waxes and wanes with political turmoil. Combined with the polarisation of politics and the fact internet is slowly driving us mad. Removing the get because of a nazism speaks of a selective cowardice on a number of levels as long as you don't imply the supernaturals are the source of the problems its fine to explore such subjects, in fact if wod is supposed to be "our world but darker." You probably should.

This will be my last comment, because I don't think my message is getting across, and I'll try to stick to a few points.

1: The Get of Fenris are not removed, they're are made an npc faction. Kuei-Jin were removed in V5 more thoroughly than the GoF were, and the first livestream I ever watched of V5 game had hombrew Kuei-Jin player characters (this was before Studiokohvi published their pet project). There's not exactly a lot to stop anyone from ruling the GoF are playable in their Chronicle.

2: Making an entire Tribe npc only because of a controversial faction is unfair, but so the world we live in. It's unfair that women still have to fight for bodily autonomy. It's unfair that most, if not all of the clergy and secular people running Residential Schools in Canada were never charged. It's unfair that people in Texas went without power in winter while their Senator flies to Cancun and their Governor keeps railroading misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic agendas instead of addressing the failing infrastructure.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

This will be my last comment, because I don't think my message is getting across, and I'll try to stick to a few points.

1: The Get of Fenris are not removed, they're are made an npc faction. Kuei-Jin were removed in V5 more thoroughly than the GoF were, and the first livestream I ever watched of V5 game had hombrew Kuei-Jin player characters (this was before Studiokohvi published their pet project). There's not exactly a lot to stop anyone from ruling the GoF are playable in their Chronicle.

2: Making an entire Tribe npc only because of a controversial faction is unfair, but so the world we live in. It's unfair that women still have to fight for bodily autonomy. It's unfair that most, if not all of the clergy and secular people running Residential Schools in Canada were never charged. It's unfair that people in Texas went without power in winter while their Senator flies to Cancun and their Governor keeps railroading misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic agendas instead of addressing the failing infrastructure.

The stated idea behind how tribes work in W5 means that the GoF should have been removed, along with the Fianna. That's less about fairness and more about inconsistent half-measures.

[Ragged Robin]

Double post

[Ragged Robin]

his will be my last comment, because I don't think my message is getting across, and I'll try to stick to a few points.

1: The Get of Fenris are not removed, they're are made an npc faction. Kuei-Jin were removed in V5 more thoroughly than the GoF were, and the first livestream I ever watched of V5 game had hombrew Kuei-Jin player characters (this was before Studiokohvi published their pet project). There's not exactly a lot to stop anyone from ruling the GoF are playable in their Chronicle.

2: Making an entire Tribe npc only because of a controversial faction is unfair, but so the world we live in. It's unfair that women still have to fight for bodily autonomy. It's unfair that most, if not all of the clergy and secular people running Residential Schools in Canada were never charged. It's unfair that people in Texas went without power in winter while their Senator flies to Cancun and their Governor keeps railroading misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic agendas instead of addressing the failing infrastructure.

1) semantics and "just homebrew it" damns the product with faint praise.

2) that's a very weak arguement. By that logic games involving any negative applicable to irl should be banned but I'm only guessing your line of reasoning here since it's very unclear. I honestly have no idea how exactly senator scumbag profits or doesn't from an nasty faction in a roleplay game and as a woman I'm a 100% it doesn't affect my body autonomy at all or the negative/positive ramifications in general.

[Crytash2]

Why I believe it is important to have the Get of Fenris as PCs in the game.

If we look at WtAs core you could say that it is the second most positive WoD game, after Wraith where a positive ending of a character is not completely out of the question. The reason you play Garou is because you want to fight - but not for yourself like all the Vampires, you do not accrue knowledge and power like in mage, you fight for the greater good of the world and try to be the “best” what the World of Darkness can offer: a hero/heroine whose adventures and honourable deeds are futile - but you do not stop.

So the goal of the game is by default not as individualistic as other game lines, a collectivism that gives you a clear way how to be a hero, by gaining renown and acquiring rank with all its pits.Why play a Get of Fenris though?

The Get of Fenris (Ahroun) were the tactical nukes of the Garou nation, they were the prime example of what kind of destruction a Garou could wield, both “positively” as well as negatively in a society as doomed as ours, especially as it is upholding the idea of hierarchies as a “good” thing. Now as a left wing person, you will likely want to deconstruct this idea of heroism, as it is based on toxic masculinity and I absolutely agree!

Playing a Get of Fenris is a bit like watching an anti war movie, we still all feel like it glorifies wars and it makes it dirty, but so would most tribes fare (in W20) if we are being honest.

Now the additional argument that has been made in this thread is also clear: The right wing movements have been gaining traction again and it would be bad business and inconsiderate to include any way to help those people play Werewolf.

One of my problems with this is that the (in lore) reason that was given to not include them is the best reason for playing them. The Get of Fenris will not stop fighting the right fight and will go beyond anything to harm the wyrm: To my ears that is exactly what most werewolfs should do. They will not surrender to despair, they will go on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzJaQtZty5M&t=42s

This is how I imagine the Get see themselves and honestly, i would rather play a werewolf like that than anything that I have seen from the rest.

I understand the big picture. I understand that stories can be told on a street level and that the power fantasies can be difficult to handle, but at its core the Get do what they are supposed to do.

Each and every day you are getting told that you can not do x/y/z, but werewolf is escapism into a world that lets you truly fight for a greener future. Your impact is immediate, with your teeth, with your claws, with your rage and those are imho valid reasons to play werewolf.

So to make a Tribe that actually does that into NPC antagonists … that is just “malarkey”, without wanting to offend anybody

Now from my view as a German, the lack of representation of “good” Germans in US media is nothing new, but trying to “Morgenthau plan” away your problem, because you want to avoid the Nazi question… that is just sad to me.... It saddens me to no avail and I think is long term counterproductive, as we have seen with several of the decisions that were made in V5 as well.

Rememberance culture is something we pride ourselves in and just forgetting and ignoring, even trying to minimize naziism is wrong. The best way to fight naziism in my experience is to show the strides that were made to combat it and to feel "pride" in that. So the best thing you could have done is to show the Get of Fenris winning that fight against their own people.

(that does not preclude the might is right idea of the Tribe, and the proto facist outview of the tribe - just a reminder, allmost all tribes have strongly hierachic outlooks).

Because of this i can not agree with what Father Enoch said.

[Bob the Skull]

Now from my view as a German, the lack of representation of “good” Germans in US media is nothing new, but trying to “Morgenthau plan” away your problem, because you want to avoid the Nazi question… that is just sad to me.... It saddens me to no avail and I think is long term counterproductive, as we have seen with several of the decisions that were made in V5 as well.

Rememberance culture is something we pride ourselves in and just forgetting and ignoring, even trying to minimize naziism is wrong. The best way to fight naziism in my experience is to show the strides that were made to combat it and to feel "pride" in that. So the best thing you could have done is to show the Get of Fenris winning that fight against their own people.

I hesitated to add my thoughts on "the Nazi question" before, but since you have brought it up, and since you are speaking to us from Germany...

I think this would be less of an issue in my mind if many of the tribes weren't tied to specific ethnic backgrounds, but I find it very troubling that a tribe with Germanic ethnic connections is getting moved into an NPC-only role because members have acted (however fictionally) on an objectionable ideology that is historically linked to Germany. If the Nazi past is so odious that the Get of Fenris become unplayable for it, what does that indicate - however inadvertently - about Germans in the real world? On the whole, what I see in Germany today is a culture, society, and the great majority of a population that have made a sincere, honest effort to come to terms with the past and to improve on their ancestors' collective choices. I believe that this deserves praise and, in Werewolf, an opportunity to explore that redemptive process. Unfortunately, and again however inadvertently, the plan seems to be the opposite: to avoid a confrontation with the issue and write off the question of redemption. I find this objectionable, and I would not blame any German fan of the game for taking even more offense.

[Knightingale]

In this particular case, I don't really get why the Get couldn't be a playable Tribe. After all, with W5 you get a hard reboot of the setting plus sweeping changes of what the status quo of the setting is and how central concepts of the setting work. So, any issues one might have with the Get of previous editions can be easily fixed due to the scope of changes made in W5. Already due to the changes in the setting, the Get will have no connection to Germany or Northern European culture anyway (in the same way the Fianna Tribe has nothing to do with Ireland). Redefining and renaming the Tribe has also already been used as a way to deal with the Native American Tribes. So the name of the Tribe could also be changed to make the distinction even clearer.

Additionally, it's still a mystery to me how in this new setup any Tribe could actually fall as a whole. Take the Black Furies: In W5 they accept anyone who is fighting against injustice. Who defines what counts as injustice, though? And here's the answer from the Discord Q&A from last October:

Do the black fury's accept anyone who thinks they are fighting injustice? Does this lead to infighting within the black furies due to opposing viewpoints who each think the other one stands for injustice?
It's not up to the tribes to "accept" individuals, as you propose above. Tribe is all of the Garou pledged to a particular Patron Spirit, so as long as you make the pact with Gorgon, you're a Black Fury. Which is no guarantee that you'll be all buddy-buddy with other Black Furies, of course.

So in the context of the Get, this would mean the culprit is the Tribe's Patron-Spirit intentionally picking those Garou who like the idea of Rage way too much, I guess...

I doubt WWII or fascism will even come up as topics when talking about the Get of Fenris. There has been already so much changed in the general W5-setting that when you get to the question of "What are W5 Get like...?", there's no question that they aren't the Get of the past editions anymore. And at that point, they should've been simply redefined like the Native American Tribes. And instead of making one Tribe the signifier of why Rage is bad, there should've been something else in its place. A sort-of Camp independent of Tribes that is all about embracing Rage and just tear the human world into pieces or something like that, for example.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

In this particular case, I don't really get why the Get couldn't be a playable Tribe. After all, with W5 you get a hard reboot of the setting plus sweeping changes of what the status quo of the setting is and how central concepts of the setting work. So, any issues one might have with the Get of previous editions can be easily fixed due to the scope of changes made in W5. Already due to the changes in the setting, the Get will have no connection to Germany or Northern European culture anyway (in the same way the Fianna Tribe has nothing to do with Ireland). Redefining and renaming the Tribe has also already been used as a way to deal with the Native American Tribes. So the name of the Tribe could also be changed to make the distinction even clearer.

Additionally, it's still a mystery to me how in this new setup any Tribe could actually fall as a whole. Take the Black Furies: In W5 they accept anyone who is fighting against injustice. Who defines what counts as injustice, though? And here's the answer from the Discord Q&A from last October:



So in the context of the Get, this would mean the culprit is the Tribe's Patron-Spirit intentionally picking those Garou who like the idea of Rage way too much, I guess...

I doubt WWII or fascism will even come up as topics when talking about the Get of Fenris. There has been already so much changed in the general W5-setting that when you get to the question of "What are W5 Get like...?", there's no question that they aren't the Get of the past editions anymore. And at that point, they should've been simply redefined like the Native American Tribes. And instead of making one Tribe the signifier of why Rage is bad, there should've been something else in its place. A sort-of Camp independent of Tribes that is all about embracing Rage and just tear the human world into pieces or something like that, for example.

Though, really, we already had the Dancers as an example of why Rage could be bad for a long time before the White Howlers got a tribe book. The presentation in Book of the Wyrm 2nd and Past Lives was that the White Howlers were Rage-maniacs beyond even the typical Get standard, and ended up opening themselves up for running after that fire that burned them. They celebrated nothing else but battle and fury, and so, well, yeah. So, we really don't need a second tribe as an example.

...Are they keeping the Dancers in W5? I can't recall.

[Knightingale]

Though, really, we already had the Dancers as an example of why Rage could be bad for a long time before the White Howlers got a tribe book. The presentation in Book of the Wyrm 2nd and Past Lives was that the White Howlers were Rage-maniacs beyond even the typical Get standard, and ended up opening themselves up for running after that fire that burned them. They celebrated nothing else but battle and fury, and so, well, yeah. So, we really don't need a second tribe as an example.

...Are they keeping the Dancers in W5? I can't recall.

They do... So there are two bad Garou-factions in W5, the Get as Rage-lovers and the BSD as Wyrm-lovers.

[Asmodai]

Additionally, it's still a mystery to me how in this new setup any Tribe could actually fall as a whole. Take the Black Furies: In W5 they accept anyone who is fighting against injustice. Who defines what counts as injustice, though?

So in the context of the Get, this would mean the culprit is the Tribe's Patron-Spirit intentionally picking those Garou who like the idea of Rage way too much, I guess...

I doubt WWII or fascism will even come up as topics when talking about the Get of Fenris. There has been already so much changed in the general W5-setting that when you get to the question of "What are W5 Get like...?", there's no question that they aren't the Get of the past editions anymore. And at that point, they should've been simply redefined like the Native American Tribes. And instead of making one Tribe the signifier of why Rage is bad, there should've been something else in its place. A sort-of Camp independent of Tribes that is all about embracing Rage and just tear the human world into pieces or something like that, for example.

This is one of those situations where they feel that they cannot trust the players with this, nor to control the narrative, so they just said - they all bad and we won't give you the tools to play them.

The new version seeks brand recognition without engaging with the good or the bad of the material

As for the way new tribes are made, I don't see much forethought there - just keep the branding and lower the potential to offend anyone. Which is sad because development and research and consulting people would have made for a richer game. As it stands they take the easy way out.

Though, really, we already had the Dancers as an example of why Rage could be bad for a long time before the White Howlers got a tribe book. The presentation in Book of the Wyrm 2nd and Past Lives was that the White Howlers were Rage-maniacs beyond even the typical Get standard, and ended up opening themselves up for running after that fire that burned them. They celebrated nothing else but battle and fury, and so, well, yeah. So, we really don't need a second tribe as an example.

...Are they keeping the Dancers in W5? I can't recall.

That's the funny bit, the running gag was that get were considered to be a risk like the howlers, this was recognized both outside and in. Something that could build towards interesting play about the nature of faith and rage and the biggest fight the get would have - for their souls.

[CTPhipps]

Please kindly reign it back attempting to comment on real racism and historical injustices with the Garou. There's a lot of stereotyping and conflation that will receive bans if it continues.

This is the only warning.

[Psicose]

Please kindly reign it back attempting to comment on real racism and historical injustices with the Garou. There's a lot of stereotyping and conflation that will receive bans if it continues.

This is the only warning.

I will try remember it.