Elemental Gift Control

[Cain Loup-Noir]

The roll to activate that gift define how much of the chosen element is controled, but it does not tell how you control it. It isn't annoying in a simple situation, like move a huge rock from the path, lift something with the air, create a small inondation etc... But how would you do if as a st you give it to the ennemy? Or if a pc obtain it? If the pc or npc decide to control fire and throw that (huge) amount of fire agaisnt someone? Would you roll it like the explosion charms? And wich caracteristic, Dex/wits + Primal Urge/Occult, Gnosis?

It is not said in my book, i've checked the vo on "wyrmfoe.com" and it's not either, how would you deal with it's use?

[Black Fox]

What you are technically doing with the Gift is contacting an Elemental, and the Elemental grants you the power to control the volume of its "element". So you can control it just like an Elemental would (presumably just by thinking like you do when you move your own body). That gives a lot of leeway for that scene. The volume of element moves however makes sense to you even if that movement seems to violate physics. I wouldn't say the controller could "throw" fire at someone, but the huge inferno of fire would move towards the person and deal whatever damage makes sense. The water of the river somehow leaves the river and floods whatever area it flows to. Part of the earth seems to erupt as if an earthquake happens and "avalanches" towards someone.

In terms of fire damage, I would run it according to the normal rules of fire. It's just that the person has somehow found herself in the middle of a huge fire. The person is in the middle of an inferno with their entire body exposed to flame, so that is three Health Levels per turn. If that person could somehow soak the fire's aggravated damage, I would probably make the soak difficulty 7 (for third degree burns).

I would make it appear clearly unnatural in origin (there isn't an earthquake or avalanche to move the earth, there is no heavy rainfall to cause a flood, there is no wind to cause the fire to move that way), but it would "behave" in a way as if there was such a natural force causing it to do so. I would try to avoid the "elemental monster in a semi-humanoid shape" of fantasy games.

That's how I would initially run it, but others may handle it differently.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

Firstly i had the "Avatar the last airbender" kind of elemental control, that's why i've thought about rolling for some specific action involving the chosen element. The elemental spirits can use many charms to interact with their own element or defend themselves, "explosion" charms is a good exemple of what kind of action a fire elemental can do and the book encourage the st to grant them any powers that would be relevant with their power (gafflin, jagglins...).

But I may have overestimated the capabilities of this gift

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Don't underestimate the danger of exploding glass. It's way harder to break than people think and more likely to cause some rather extreme damage just from showering everyone in what amounts to falling shards of flint.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

I don't underestimate exploding glass, the explosion charms is pretty powerfull for glass spirits and other, i just thought that elemental gift give you the ability to control a certain amount if the chosen element and let you make whatever you want with that amount, not just move it from a point to another but manipulate it as you like.

[Black Fox]

Now that I reread the Gift in W20, I find it more confusing. The Gift talks about controlling a volume of "element", but then complicates it by talking about an Elemental Spirit being there and the effects lasting until it leaves or is destroyed. So it makes it sound like maybe you are controlling an Elemental. The wording in Revised is different, but substantially the same.

The Gift's description in WtA 2e also mentions an Elemental spirit actually being present, but the Gift's mechanics seem clearer. In the description it mentions the Garou can cause the elements to rise up, undulate forward, and even engulf foes. In the System mechanics descriptions, it doesn't make any mention of an Elemental spirit.

So it seems like that as time went by, the writers kept adding more words about this elemental spirit associated with the Gift. But the Gift's mechanics remain concentrated on the actual volume of the real world "element" and controlling it.

Others may have different interpretation, but to me it seems that the Gift really gives the ability of the Garou to take control of an existing "element" present. It does not seem to me it is about having an Elemental spirit arrive and the Garou commanding the spirit to use its charms and powers. That seems more like flavor text justifying the power that got out of hand with each subsequent iteration. I think the Gift is really about the volume of "element" and the Garou causing it to move, attack, etc.

I would not necessarily use the Charms of actual Elemental Spirits to simulate things unless it really fit what actually happens with the manipulation of the elements. I think it is there for the Garou to do things like cause a landslide that completely blocks the road, open a sinkhole that causes people to fall into the earth, a cyclone to touch done on the ground, a small fire in the fireplace to suddenly leap out and engulf the house, causing a flood, etc. Natural disaster type stuff, but you could also use it for other purposes like excavating out a trench or underground chamber, eliminating the cyclone or stopping the huge fire from spreading, preventing people from drowning by the current taking them to a safe spot on land, etc. That is more narrative in nature than mechanical, but obviously the ST would need to determine certain mechanic effects when needed.

I would also limit to just the air, earth, fire, and water that make up Gaia, not things like glass or plastic. The previous four are explicitly mentioned in the Gift, but not the others. Furthermore you can argue the classical four elements are what is part of Gaia's body, which you are commanding, not the artificial elements that are man made. And this is a Lupus gift, so a more natural focus makes more sense.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

Black Fox The exploding glass part was brought by Saur ops Specialist, i was talking about the 4 classical element and how you manipulate them according to the elemental gift description. Again when i read it the first thing i had in mind was the "Avatar the last airbender" kind of manipulation, not only the natural disaster part (wich is already pretty powerfull alone)

So for some complex use like build a stone wall, lift and throw something with the air etc i was wondering what roll? Gnosis? Attribute + Capacity, and wich? As you said the gift description is confising, it only tell how much you can control but not how you actually control it

[Asmodai]

Now that I reread the Gift in W20, I find it more confusing. The Gift talks about controlling a volume of "element", but then complicates it by talking about an Elemental Spirit being there and the effects lasting until it leaves or is destroyed. So it makes it sound like maybe you are controlling an Elemental. The wording in Revised is different, but substantially the same.

The Gift's description in WtA 2e also mentions an Elemental spirit actually being present, but the Gift's mechanics seem clearer. In the description it mentions the Garou can cause the elements to rise up, undulate forward, and even engulf foes. In the System mechanics descriptions, it doesn't make any mention of an Elemental spirit.

So it seems like that as time went by, the writers kept adding more words about this elemental spirit associated with the Gift. But the Gift's mechanics remain concentrated on the actual volume of the real world "element" and controlling it.

After reading this discussion, I'm currently unsure which gift we're talking about?

Create Element ? (Level 1)
Elemental Favour ? (Level 3)
Call Elemental ? (Level 4)
Elemental Gift ? (Level 5)

Because from the title, it seems to be Elemental Gift, which seems to summon a Elemental with the stats of a Nexus Crawler. Which seems pretty damn powerful, but also wholly in the domain of the ST to adjudicate.

I would also limit to just the air, earth, fire, and water that make up Gaia, not things like glass or plastic. The previous four are explicitly mentioned in the Gift, but not the others. Furthermore you can argue the classical four elements are what is part of Gaia's body, which you are commanding, not the artificial elements that are man made. And this is a Lupus gift, so a more natural focus makes more sense.

Hengeyokai do have a variant of the Create Element gift affecting the chinese elements and the extra "Moon" shtick, so it wouldn't be out of character for different elements to appear. There may be another variant that works with more modern elements? Maybe Plastic/Electricity/Glass/Concrete/Oil? Such a variant would probably be quite controversial and Weaver aligned, possibly locking out access to the traditional elements?

[Cain Loup-Noir]

Asmodai We're talking about the Rank 5 Lupus gift "Elemental Gift" that allow you to control à (huge) volume of the chosen element by summoning an elemental spirit as powerfull as a nexus crawler (according to the w20 description). That gift is powerful but it only tell how much you control and not how you control.

[Asmodai]

Asmodai We're talking about the Rank 5 Lupus gift "Elemental Gift" that allow you to control à (huge) volume of the chosen element by summoning an elemental spirit as powerfull as a nexus crawler (according to the w20 description). That gift is powerful but it only tell how much you control and not how you control.

Check out the Nexus Crawler stats. Use Warp Reality as applied to the element you're using. But it's not like that PC will ever do that, the PC asks the Elemental to do something and the ST facilitates that within what they see the spirit can do.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

Check out the Nexus Crawler stats. Use Warp Reality as applied to the element you're using. But it's not like that PC will ever do that, the PC asks the Elemental to do something and the ST facilitates that within what they see the spirit can do.

So when you must determine the axact effect you say that if a pc use this gift the ST roll the spirit's gnosis as nexus crawler would do for "warp reality"?

[Asmodai]

So when you must determine the axact effect you say that if a pc use this gift the ST roll the spirit's gnosis as nexus crawler would do for "warp reality"?

Yes. Limited to the nature of the element, of course. I'd question how much use there is rolling for the spirit because it's a NPC, it probably can do something or cannot do something depending on the plot. For the edge cases when you need an exact numerical result, just roll for "Warp Reality".

[Cain Loup-Noir]

Yes. Limited to the nature of the element, of course. I'd question how much use there is rolling for the spirit because it's a NPC, it probably can do something or cannot do something depending on the plot. For the edge cases when you need an exact numerical result, just roll for "Warp Reality".

Perfect, for some "attack" use where there could be additionnal damage (without any kind of limitation in the raw for we never know when a pc or the st can come with a bright idea) it would suremy be enough to roll like for the explosion charms with a potential bonus depending on the nature of the attack (smash with a huge rock, wind propulsion, fire tornado or a wave that crash over the poor victims

Thanks for the help guys