Wrong Fetish

[Psicose]

Once I suggested a fetish idea, a shotgun with a long bayonet, its ability to change along with the shape of the garou using it, naturally it's a Dies Ultima fetish. And the ST said it's very unbalanced, but I didn't think so, I wanted a second opinion.

[Heavy Arms]

The ability for it to change shape to be usable from Homid to Crinos is, by itself, barely enough to classify it as worthy of being a Fetish.

You're going to have to provide more details, because it feels like we're missing something.

[Psicose]

The ability for it to change shape to be usable from Homid to Crinos is, by itself, barely enough to classify it as worthy of being a Fetish.

You're going to have to provide more details, because it feels like we're missing something.

In fact, that's all it is, an adaptable equipment, I thought that at most I could equip a second fetish on the bayonet or use special ammo. The complaint I received was that in a werewolf vs werewolf fight this would be a hit kill.

[Asmodai]

The complaint I received was that in a werewolf vs werewolf fight this would be a hit kill.

I'm not even sure what those words even mean. It would be unlikely to be considered an honorable weapon, and a Garou dueling with that would really end up in trouble. But if you're Urrah it's not like they expect much from you anyway.

The more important question is what kind of a spirit would want to be in a weapon like that and how was it made. Fetishes are unique and special things built as temples for Gods. You don't make them casually and the people involved in crafting one would go to great lengths to make sure the Fetish is finley made and the spirits within well placated. Placing two spirits within such a weapon is quite an epic feat and one reserved for the mightiest of fetishes.

If it's just a gun that does aggravated shotgun damage, it's not all that hard to make. But 8 dice of aggravated damage isn't all that impressive all things considered. There's way to do more damage if you wanted to with other methods, but the shotgun should be a masterwork with a story behind it. Maybe you could bind thunder spirits within it to make your foes fly away or be deafened by the strikes of the barrels.

The bayonet just seems superfluous. What does it do that a claw or the handcannon you're carrying don't do?

[Psicose]

I'm not even sure what those words even mean. It would be unlikely to be considered an honorable weapon, and a Garou dueling with that would really end up in trouble. But if you're Urrah it's not like they expect much from you anyway.

I didn't understand either, I didn't even intend to use this weapon, it was in a conversation with an acquaintance of mine who wanted some ideas for the story and got into this subject, as a result I had this idea and he got irritated as if I had quoted an absurd idea. If I had to guess it's because a shotgun can really do damage at close range so in Crinos vs. Crinos combat a shot to the throat can be fatal.

The more important question is what kind of a spirit would want to be in a weapon like that and how was it made. Fetishes are unique and special things built as temples for Gods. You don't make them casually and the people involved in crafting one would go to great lengths to make sure the Fetish is finley made and the spirits within well placated. Placing two spirits within such a weapon is quite an epic feat and one reserved for the mightiest of fetishes.

If it's just a gun that does aggravated shotgun damage, it's not all that hard to make. But 8 dice of aggravated damage isn't all that impressive all things considered. There's way to do more damage if you wanted to with other methods, but the shotgun should be a masterwork with a story behind it. Maybe you could bind thunder spirits within it to make your foes fly away or be deafened by the strikes of the barrels.

The bayonet just seems superfluous. What does it do that a claw or the handcannon you're carrying don't do?

I thought a spirit of steel (Does it exist?) or a spirit of war would do in this case. As for the bayonet, some bayonets are like daggers together with a weapon and equipment so it was just making the two individually and then joining. As for the function, a weapon with a bayonet equipped can be used with the spear and I was thinking of one of those double barrel shotguns that are more powerful, but can only fire one or two shots before reloading.

[Asmodai]

I didn't understand either, I didn't even intend to use this weapon, it was in a conversation with an acquaintance of mine who wanted some ideas for the story and got into this subject, as a result I had this idea and he got irritated as if I had quoted an absurd idea. If I had to guess it's because a shotgun can really do damage at close range so in Crinos vs. Crinos combat a shot to the throat can be fatal.

So can a claw to the throat. They do about the same damage.

I thought a spirit of steel (Does it exist?) or a spirit of war would do in this case. As for the bayonet, some bayonets are like daggers together with a weapon and equipment so it was just making the two individually and then joining. As for the function, a weapon with a bayonet equipped can be used with the spear and I was thinking of one of those double barrel shotguns that are more powerful, but can only fire one or two shots before reloading.

There are spirits of steel, but they probably wouldn't be empowering a gun fetish. You either make a fetish one holistic item or you don't add anything to it, because you're insulting the spirit within and marring it's home by bolting on random stuff that's not a part of the fetish it agreed to be in. I still don't see much practical use for this item, especially considering the complexity of making it.

Let's say you have some kind of a trenchgun with a mountable blade below it (probably a Winchester 1897), dunno maybe a Glass Walker or Bone Gnawer really needed it in WW1 and it has been passed on since, each owner embellishing it and adding marks and offerings to the spirit inside. Let's say there's a war spirit inside it. The thing would do 8 dice of aggravated damage to things in short range, and the bayonet would do Str +1 aggravated damage when used to stab/cut things with the fetish.

It's pretty scary if you're using it in Homid form, but In Crinos, the only benefit you're getting is that if you're very careful you won't get Wyrm goo on you if you stab people with the rifle.

[Heavy Arms]

Bayonets on a shotgun (any modern shotgun) is kinda pointless. Bayonets have increasingly fallen out of favor as we can make powerful rifles with short enough barrels to maneuver in tight spaces with large ammo capacity and quick change magazines. Plus the large variety of much more potent options like single-fire grenade launches or similar specialty gear. The idea of this concept being overpowered in Werewolf is... I don't never know where to start on how off-base that idea is.

In general I agree with what Asmodai is saying, though not so much on how picky spirits are going to be. A spirit in Clashing Boom Boom's brood (a go to for war spirits in modern weaponry considering she's the spirit of advanced weaponry) isn't going to be insulted by modular guns being used as designed... they might actively be insulted if you weren't doing a custom load out based on mission parameters every time you loaded up for combat. Knowing your spirits matters, since even if one is cool with such things, as I just pointed out, it doesn't mean they're mindlessly cool with everything.

A bigger concern is that spirits don't like to share. Two Fetishes hooked together is likely to offend the spirits, and binding two spirits together into a Fetish is supposed to be a very significant feat for a Garou weapon maker.

[Asmodai]

Heavy Arms

The reason why I suggested rhe M97 was because it was the last time a shotgun came with a standard bayonett fitting. Ww2 and onward it was no longer a thing.

As for specifically designed modular weapon systems, that would absolutley work! Especially with a spirit like boom boom or something of that ilk. I just didn't see that approach in the description - it sounded like i make a fetish and bolt a spike onto it to me, and that would be disrespectful to the fetish.

[Psicose]

Bayonets on a shotgun (any modern shotgun) is kinda pointless. Bayonets have increasingly fallen out of favor as we can make powerful rifles with short enough barrels to maneuver in tight spaces with large ammo capacity and quick change magazines. Plus the large variety of much more potent options like single-fire grenade launches or similar specialty gear. The idea of this concept being overpowered in Werewolf is... I don't never know where to start on how off-base that idea is.

In general I agree with what Asmodai is saying, though not so much on how picky spirits are going to be. A spirit in Clashing Boom Boom's brood (a go to for war spirits in modern weaponry considering she's the spirit of advanced weaponry) isn't going to be insulted by modular guns being used as designed... they might actively be insulted if you weren't doing a custom load out based on mission parameters every time you loaded up for combat. Knowing your spirits matters, since even if one is cool with such things, as I just pointed out, it doesn't mean they're mindlessly cool with everything.

A bigger concern is that spirits don't like to share. Two Fetishes hooked together is likely to offend the spirits, and binding two spirits together into a Fetish is supposed to be a very significant feat for a Garou weapon maker.

Okay, so I get it that it wouldn't be very useful or very usual, but is it really so annoying that it would make someone mad to even suggest it?

[Psicose]

Heavy Arms

The reason why I suggested rhe M97 was because it was the last time a shotgun came with a standard bayonett fitting. Ww2 and onward it was no longer a thing.

As for specifically designed modular weapon systems, that would absolutley work! Especially with a spirit like boom boom or something of that ilk. I just didn't see that approach in the description - it sounded like i make a fetish and bolt a spike onto it to me, and that would be disrespectful to the fetish.

Okay, so I get it that it wouldn't be very useful or very usual, but is it really so annoying that it would make someone mad to even suggest it?

[Cain Loup-Noir]

You either make a fetish one holistic item or you don't add anything to it, because you're insulting the spirit within and marring it's home by bolting on random stuff that's not a part of the fetish it agreed to be in.

Wouldn't it depend on what kind of thing you add on the fetiche? In that case let's say you bind a war spirit in the shotgun and then add the bayonett to it, would it displeased the war spirit? He's binded to a weapon and you make it deadlier after all. And in the case of a classic riffle on wich you put a grenade launcher? If we assume that the addition is in accordance with the spirit, could it not be accepted and considered as a way to satisfy that spirit?

In addition to be certain on what the garou can or cannot do he could directly ask the spirit's fetiche with the rite of spirit awakening, no?

[Asmodai]

Okay, so I get it that it wouldn't be very useful or very usual, but is it really so annoying that it would make someone mad to even suggest it?

That's why Heavy Arms was asking about the context. What kind of game are you playing and is it possible that you're trying to have a character with an item that's not suitable? I.e. with very traditional tribes or in a setting where it's going to be more politics than fighting?

[Asmodai]

Wouldn't it depend on what kind of thing you add on the fetiche? In that case let's say you bind a war spirit in the shotgun and then add the bayonett to it, would it displeased the war spirit? He's binded to a weapon and you make it deadlier after all. And in the case of a classic riffle on wich you put a grenade launcher? If we assume that the addition is in accordance with the spirit, could it not be accepted and considered as a way to satisfy that spirit?

In addition to be certain on what the garou can or cannot do he could directly ask the spirit's fetiche with the rite of spirit awakening, no?

That's not how Fetish building works. Either the whole of the fetish is a perfectly matched thing to house the spirit or you're pissing the spirit off. Just adding on random things is changing the deal with the spirit and changing the nature of the fetish itself. Things like that could very well antagonize the spirit and make it harder to use the fetish while causing your renown loss for inappropriate dealing with the Fetish.

The Spirit of War didn't sign up to be a killer, it gave away its existence to give mystic power to a very special thing under very special circumstance, any changes to those circumstances are changes to the express contract you made with the spirit and can carry heavy consequences.

[Psicose]

That's why Heavy Arms was asking about the context. What kind of game are you playing and is it possible that you're trying to have a character with an item that's not suitable? I.e. with very traditional tribes or in a setting where it's going to be more politics than fighting?

I don't know, as I already mentioned, I didn't intend to use it, an acquaintance was doing a campaign involving Dies Ultima and wanted fetish suggestions, I suggested a lot, but this one in particular makes him especially angry.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

That's not how Fetish building works. Either the whole of the fetish is a perfectly matched thing to house the spirit or you're pissing the spirit off. Just adding on random things is changing the deal with the spirit and changing the nature of the fetish itself. Things like that could very well antagonize the spirit and make it harder to use the fetish while causing your renown loss for inappropriate dealing with the Fetish.

The Spirit of War didn't sign up to be a killer, it gave away its existence to give mystic power to a very special thing under very special circumstance, any changes to those circumstances are changes to the express contract you made with the spirit and can carry heavy consequences.

In wich book is it stated? I'd like to take a look in it, that will surely give me enough information to better build my story